A page and forum to discuss all things Novak Djokovic.
Current ranking: 1
Last result: Banja Luka quarterfinals (lost to Dusan Lajovic)
Next tournament: Rome Masters
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A page and forum to discuss all things Novak Djokovic.
Current ranking: 1
Last result: Banja Luka quarterfinals (lost to Dusan Lajovic)
Next tournament: Rome Masters
Copyright © 2024 | MH Magazine WordPress Theme by MH Themes
https://twitter.com/hotdog6969/status/554264566683951104
Djokovic’s struggle against big serving has been aptly explained by @vamosrafa and @hawkeye.
IMO, Nole has the best return shot on the tour. He can just neutralise any kind of serve. But he does have difficulty in reading the serve. In that department, I think Fed is the best. He has got a brilliant read on his opponent’s serve ( that’s why it has always been difficult to out ace him even by the big servers). But his reflexes and his return shot, especially the BH is pretty weak, which denies him the opportunity to take advantage of his anticipation skills. Rafa doesn’t have that powerful return or read on the serve, but he makes up for it with his court positioning and ensuing a rally from there on. The difference b/w Nole and Rafa I think lies in the way they approach their return games. Nole always look to attack on the return and start the rally on an advantage, while Rafa mostly likes to just put in a neutral return to start a rally and dominate from there on.
good post ,abhirf. I tend to agree with almost all the points. Well , I won’t say rafa likes to jut put in a neutral return..he often goes for his returns but in a different way usually. He his aiming to hit deep,heavily spun forehands and when he is able to do that, he draws short balls. The problem is that because he puts so much spin from so far back, is returns can land short and sometimes he is not able to create enough able and that gets punished.
However, he does go after some returns ,surely. He often hits big backhand CC returns on the deuce court and uses his forehand to punish some weak 2nd serves too. But yes, generally nole is a much more aggressive returner. The best thing about djokovic’s return is that while it is an aggressive return, it is also a high percentage return! Agassi’s return was more aggressive but the percentages were lower than novak’s. Novak focuses more on depth. His forehand return is a little vulnerable though. Anyhow, it is his biggest weapon.
excuse all the typos :/ and the part ‘not able to create enough able’ in line 5 should read ‘not able to create enough angle’ ..
I do agree that Rafa has been more aggressive over the last 2 years. But he still tends to revert back to standing too far in the back court more often than not. Hence, the generalised comment regarding his Return!
i generally support Nole but like most everyone. i agree with the poster abhirf. they take different approaches to return games. Nole’s return is much better and their baseline games are similarly on form; Nole plays just as good defense as Rafa but is less inclined to play that style. He can turn defense into offense with one shot; Rafa is happy to play defensive and defensive shot before finally playing some attack after like 15 shots in a point. That does not usually work on hard surfaces because the points is over before that. On clay it goes on forever and Rafa has time to work into a rally and finally get on offense. One reason why surface will help Nole win in AO.
you are right that they take different approaches to return games. However, I am not too sure which rafa are you talking about when you say he attacks after 15 shots in a point. Rafa has become a very aggressive baseliner now! He pulls the trigger a lot more often on his forehand side. He actually hit more winners than novak did in the USO 2013 and also FO 2014 final! Rafa has a more aggressive forehand while djokovic has a more aggressive backhand. It is however, true that djokovic employs a more aggressive court positioning and takes the ball earlier off both wings. Another thing is that because rafa stands so far back to return serve, it is more difficult for him to make him way up the court but he has the best footwork in the game to do that and he does that every time he gets s decent return in play.
Agreed, it has been a long time that Rafa played too defensively.
His game has become much more agressive especially since 2013 (out of necessity according to Rafa himself). He has always amazed me with his ability to turn defence into offence at the turn of a dime at any point during a rally, long or short.
vamosrafa,
I am enjoying reading this discussion as I just checked in today. I do not agree that Rafa just tries to hit his return to get the ball in play. Sometimes that can be true, but not always. Rafa has become much more offensive minded as his game has evolved. He’s not content to stay behind the baseline and try to win from there. For one thing, he can’t do it because other players have managed to counter his tactic with their own aggressive play. For another thing, this attritional style of play is just too hard on his body.
Rafa has made incremental changes over the years. He now has a superb net game. He tries to move into the court and close out points more quickly. I appreciate the fact that Rafa has been willing to tinker with his game and make adjustments over time.
I do not agree that Novak is the only player who can turn defense into offense with one shot. Rafa has demonstrated the capability of seamlessly transitioning from defense to offense on many occasions. It is now one of his greatest strengths.
“I do not agree that Rafa just tries to hit his return to get the ball in play.”
you’re right. he quite often hits his return OUT of play!!!!
@NNY, you are absolutely right about rafa being great at turning defense into offense! who said rafa is second to anyone in that category? I guess he is the best! his forehand is the best weapon in the game to turn defense into offense! djokovic is able to generate incredible depth even on full stretch when playing his backhands and that allows him to quickly get back to offense. Rafa’s backhand defense is second only to djokovic though. His counterpunching is exceptional . But as far as the forehand side is concerned, rafa is far ahead.
So, my conclusions on the stats posed by @vamosrafa at January 11, 2015 at 10:58 am are as follows:
Novak has the worst record against serve-bot giants amongst the traditional Big 4. Even if one factored in Rosol’s, Soderling’s and Kyrgios’s results, Rafa’s metrics would still be better than Novak’s, his main rival currently.
Agreed.
Also ritb, let’s just take a step back -:
h2h:
Nadal/Soderling 6:2
Djokovic/Soderling 6:1
So Nadal has no more trouble against Sod than Djoko has and Djoko has yet to play Krygios. But Nadal has an impeccable record against Karlovic & Isner, which Djoker doesn’t have. However, it’s Djoko who is put in the lead against big servers.
#Charming
Nadal OWNED Sod
would have beat him 1, 1, and 1 at the 09 French Open if healthy
^^Thank you!
Those 2 losses by Rafa to Sod were during 2009 when, at the risk of stating the obvious, Rafa was playing injured. Don’t understand the Sod troubled Rafa narrative to be honest……..
it’s because Soderling had the prototypical game that SHOULD have been able to work against Rafa
so people just ASSUME that it did. needless to say, it did nothing of the sort.
Had a chemistry teacher who used to start classes thus:
“Let’s assume there are no assumptions”
Ricky,
I always thought that Sod’s victory over Rafa in the 2009 RG was a one off. It was obvious that Rafa could not move well at all because of his knees. Sod did play a great match for him, but a healthy Rafa would have cleaned his clock.
That’s why Sod never beat him again. A healthy Rafa on any surface can beat him as he proved at Wimbledon.
Nadal roasted him like 1 and 0 two weeks earlier
“However, it’s Djoko who is put in the lead against big servers.”
Who said so.
#ShhhDelusionalRevisionismAtWork
“However, it’s Djoko who is put in the lead against big servers. ”
He is not, stats don’t lie. Stats are fact. They are there on the ATP website.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nuanced take, spin, whatever. Doesn’t change the stats. It’s play on court, and results, that will change the stats.
Except I haven’t heard anyone make that specific assertion.
Oh, okay. Haven’t bothered to scroll up to read all the posts to be honest. Just responded to @nadline’s comment @ 2:26 pm
hawkeye, to say Nole has the best ROS when he doesn’t have the best ROS against the big servers is making that assertion. Look at what
abhirf says:
January 12, 2015 at 5:52 am (paraphrasing)
Nadal doesn’t have a read on the serve. Such misrepresentation of the facts. Also That Nole is the best at neutralizing the serve, a figment of his imagination.
^^^And vamosrafa agreed with almost all abhirf’s points.
vamosrafa says:
January 12, 2015 at 7:16 am
good post ,abhirf. I tend to agree with almost all the points.
Look up the word “almost”.
what exactly did abhirf say that has offended you? yes , I do agree with him that both rafa and novak employ very different return strategies. Rafa stands far back and novak is not the best in reading big first serve. Plus, rafa’s court positioning has its advantages as well as its disadvantages. He also made some valid pnts about fed’s return! and yes, I used ‘almost’ because I do not agree with ALL the points. My next post discusses some of the things that show my disagreements. So where is the issue here exactly? :S
No reasoning with the unreasonable VR. She’s entered into the Troll Zone.
“However, it’s Djoko who is put in the lead against big servers. ”
Nope, abhirf (nor anyone I’ve read) puts in that qualifier “against big servers”. You came up with that self-serving gem all on your own.
#ShhhDelusionalRevisionismStillAtWork
A certain amount of back-tracking is going on.
Well, yes exactly. You’ve taken the first step.
#Finally
copy pasting can be your friend here. post the exact part with which you have a disagreement with and I can then perhaps clarify.
Nobody here has said anything even remotely unreasonable. It’s just that if you don’t say that Rafa is the best of all time at everything, any place, any time, all the time, that’s when the defensiveness and attacking starts.
No one here is allowed to say anything positive about Novak’s game without getting trashed. He can’t be the best returner because that would be an insult to Rafa.
Same old same old.
WARNING: the post:
augusta08, January 12, 2015 at 7:48 pm
is trolling for a reply. Please do not respond. Thank you for your cooperation. This is an automated post. Replies will not be responded to.
nadline10 says:
January 12, 2015 at 2:50 pm
abhirf says:
January 12, 2015 at 5:52 am (paraphrasing)
Nadal doesn’t have a read on the serve. Such misrepresentation of the facts. Also That Nole is the best at neutralizing the serve, a figment of his imagination.
Then I guess you would put it as a figment of Rafa’s ( and many more players on the tour ) imagination who keep on rambling about Nole’s ROS as the best on tour.
I think you are still misinterpreting the difference b/w read on serve, the ROS and return game.
Ever wondered why Rafa stands so far back while returning. If it’s not for giving himself more time to read the serve, then what else is it for. The only reason Rafa lost to Kyrgios in Wimbledon was because he became too adamant to return by standing too close to the baseline. Only if he could have changed his return position even by half-a-metre, it might have been enough for him to get more into Kyrgios service games.
not understanding the difference between ROS and return game is arguably the biggest flaw among the tennis fan population
Nole’s ROS is BY FAR the best on tour.
Rafa’s return game while among the very best (career 33% won) is not much better than Nole (32%) nor Muzz’s.(32%). Certainly better than Fed’s (27%).
Even in Rafa’s amazing 2013, Rafa was tops at 34% to Nole’s 33%.
abhirf,
I think you make an excellent point about the confusion between ROS and the return game.
By the way, it’s good to see you back here posting. I hope you hang around for a while.
It is so boring when the usual suspects come out against anyone trying to make Rafa’s case. If just once in a while they would defend Rafa, I would be inclined to take them seriously.
I might also say that it’s boring and annoying when the usual suspects come out and attack anyone who dares to say something positive about any player not named Rafa!
Soderling was able to ‘trouble’ rafa on a few occasions. The wimbledon 2010 quarter final is also an example. But did rafa own soderling? of course yes! he would have swept soderling away in straights sets if he was fit on that day they played each other at the french open in 2009. guess what, soderling lost all six sets he played against rafa at roland garros in the years that followed !
Big,flat hitting can disrupt rafa’s rhythm. There are patterns of play that can make a particular player look a little vulnerable and that applies to each of rafa, federer and djokovic. Rafa is the best problem solver among the big 4 and he finds solutions quickly. I remember how mathew’s CC backhand was able to do so much damage against rafa in RG 2005 but over the years rafa’s forehand has evolved so much . Rafa on full cylinders is the toughest prospect in my view. He just has to avoid those stupid wrist,back ,knee issues . I think rafa will have a very strong 2015
I think Rafa’s loss to Kyrgios was kosher. Rafa had no unusual physical limitations that day, unlike the losses to Sod and Rosol.
I hope Kyrgios is not in Rafa’s quarter till the clay season……………..
Who am I kidding? He will be in Rafa’s quarter at Oz 2015.
I’m also sure Krygios will be in Rafa’s Qtr. but perhaps it would be a good thing for Rafa to make amends as soon as possible.
I’m nervous. I feel Rafa needs more match-play to be truly comfortable out there. While the Oz crowd has been polite to Rafa (except last year at the instigation of that……….) can you imagine the baying that will take place playing that young man?
I too think Kyrgios will be in rafa’s quarter! kyrgios win can be attributed mainly to two things:
1.he had a crazy serving day. His first serve was untouchable for most of the match.
2. rafa lacked confidence on grass and that is natural! he was slowly building confidence by winning some matches but perhaps it was not enough. He was nervous on important points and because he had not won many matches, he was not comfortable.
I do not think Kyrgios will be able to defeat rafa ever again,
You guys, Rafa’s coming off a loooooong lay off. We all know he is like a diesel engine, needs time to warm up……..
Well, to avoid acute disappointment, I am maintaining a pessimistic posture until he reaches the quarters.
^^^Definitely! He could meet Rafa as soon as the first round. I predict second round. Will also be at least two other giants in Rafa’s quarter also. They don’t like giving any rhythm players to Rafa.
Also see Raonic in Rafa’s quarter and Kei in Nole’s). Muzza with CryBaby and Berdy with Fed.
lol…I got a feeling some of these predictions will come true haha.. for a change give rafa some rhythm players please!
Looking at the 9-16 seeds, look for the Fog and Feli in Fed’s qtr, Ferrer and Anderson in Wawa’s qtr, BabyFed and Gulbis in Rafa’s qtr and RBA and Robredo in Nole’s quarter.
Also anticipate Monfils, Isner, Ivo all in Nole’s half, two of which will be in Rafa’s qtr.
So, to summarize my 2015 AO Rigged Picks:
Rafa’s half: Kyrgios, Thiem, LaMonf, Gulbis, BabyFed, Raonic and Nole.
Fed’s half: Qualifiers, Feli, Fognini, Berdy, Muzza and CryBaby
(Disclaimer: historically the Australian Open has been the fairest of draws for Rafa compared to the other three slams.)
How did I forget Del Potro!!!
Also BabyFed is useless vs Fed so let’s trade him for Ferru in Rafa’s quarter and BabyFed in Fed’s quarter.
So:
Rafa: Del Potro, Kyrgios, Thiem, LaMonf, Gulbis, Ferru, Raonic (or Kei) all in Rafa’s quarter and Rafa in Nole’s half (Nole to draw Kei if Rafa gets Milos – Kei and Milos NOT in Fed’s quarter).
Fed: Qualifiers, Feli, Fognini, BabyFed and Berdych all in Fed’s quarter and CryBaby with Muzza in Fed’s half.
There! Done and dusted!
It was unbelievable how they pit Isner against Mahut the very next year after the marathon match to get another side show and a return of Rafa/Rosol at Wimbledon. The chances of that happening at random are quite remote. This is why I believe a Nadal/Krygios is in the pipeline in OZ and probably also at Wimbledon.
that may be the only draw that i LEGITIMATELY believe was rigged
#ScovilleJenkins
If “they” can rig one, why not the others?
i didn’t say they can’t, i said i’m not sure if i am 100 percent convinced that any others were rigged
do i think there’s a possibility of other rigged draws? of course.
do I believe in the POSSIBILITY that draws aren’t rigged? of course.
Not likely though (based on the data).
#TheoreticallyYesPracticallyNo
The least they can do is rig another AO final between Rafa and Stan. This time Rafa will be fit.
^^Yes please, I’ll take that!
I pick Fed as second only to Djokovic to win AO (unless he plays Rafa).
Let’s see what the oddsmakers say. Please stand by…
Oddsmakers agree! Followed closely by Muzza and Rafa.
Cry-Baby-Feds are in a distant virtual tie both at about 14:1. That’s gotta be one of the lowest odds for a Defending Champ.
Not surprised.
hawkeye, I hope you put your money where your mouth is.
http://www.idioms4you.com/img/angif-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is.gif
hawkeye
I have the perfect comeback to that but I’m too nice. (I’m sure you can figure it out.)
As always, you have nothing of substance to add.
Find that quote to support your claim, “it’s Djoko who is put in the lead against big servers. ”
Thought not.
Keep on trollin’, I mean truckin’ @nadline10.
^^^I believe you.
Not sure where to post this (maybe nadline can make a better suggestion).
ChangeOver Tennis 2015 predictions…
My favourite quote: “Just like this year, Berdych will seem to have an AWFUL season and yet he’ll remain the top ten cockroach that he is.”
http://www.changeovertennis.com/changeover-chat-unwisely-attempting-predict-2015/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Andrew: I’m starting to lose faith that Delpo’s career will ever take off again, if I’m honest. I think Gulbis will still impose himself occasionally, and I’ll be keeping a very close eye on Kyrgios.
Lindsay: Kyrgios is the wild card.
Amy: I don’t believe in the Kyrgios hype.
Lindsay: Oh, I totally do. But we’ll see.
Anyways, onto the fun part. What are our predictions for the top five?
Amy: 1. Djokovic, 2. Rafa 3. Murray 4. Fed 5. Stan. Big Four are still the easiest bet.
Andrew: 1. Djokovic 2. Nadal 3. Murray 4. Dimitrov 5. Federer
Amy: Ewwww, Baby Fed in front of Real Fed. Gross.
Andrew: I know. It’s disturbing. But I went there.
Amy: May that never, ever happen.
Lindsay: LOLOL
Amy: Fed DEFINITELY needs to retire before it does.
Andrew: He’s just so stretchy. That is world No. 4 level stretchiness.
Lindsay: 1. Djokovic 2. Rafa 3. Stan 4. Raonic 5. Federer.
Andrew: I would love that, Lindsay, I showed great restraint not add a little maple syrup to the mix.
Lindsay: I think one of the three–Dimitrov, Raonic, Nishikori, will be in the top 5, and I think Raonic has the best chance of staying healthy.
http://velocity.radialhq.com.au/Cleanliness%20-Put-Rubbish-In-Bin.gif
How about this?
That’s a very good place for that claim you made @nadline.
I agree.
I like this bit though, keeping things in perspective:
Lindsay: I agree on another good season for Djokovic, probably finishing No. 1 (depending on Rafa’s health), but I expect a couple of surprising Slam losses like we saw this season. –
link?
oh got it, thanks
I think that Rafa has gotten decent draws at the AO. That’s not what has stopped him. It’s the curse of always getting hurt or getting sick the way he did in Doha when he was going for the Rafa slam. If Rafa can just be healthy and not have any surprise injury crop up, then that would be nice to see for a change.
that is true! draw has not been an issue for rafa at AO. The illness caught in doha in 2011 , the back injury last year have been the real issues. I hope he stays healthy when exposed to high intensity competition. I do have this concern.
https://twitter.com/Dimonator/status/554719917371453441
^^Superb!
You is on fire Rickster!!
hawkeye63 says:
January 12, 2015 at 3:37 pm
So, to summarize my 2015 AO Rigged Picks:
Rafa’s half: Kyrgios, Thiem, LaMonf, Gulbis, BabyFed, Raonic and Nole.
Fed’s half: Qualifiers, Feli, Fognini, Berdy, Muzza and CryBaby
(Disclaimer: historically the Australian Open has been the fairest of draws for Rafa compared to the other three slams.)
I’m happy to see Thiem, LaMonf, Gulbis, BabyFed, Raonic and Nole in Rafa’s path, not the hyperactive Krygios.
hawkeye63 says:
January 12, 2015 at 3:37 pm
“So, to summarize my 2015 AO Rigged Picks:
Rafa’s half: Kyrgios, Thiem, LaMonf, Gulbis, BabyFed, Raonic and Nole.
Fed’s half: Qualifiers, Feli, Fognini, Berdy, Muzza and CryBaby
(Disclaimer: historically the Australian Open has been the fairest of draws for Rafa compared to the other three slams.)”
I’m happy to see Thiem, LaMonf, Gulbis, BabyFed, Raonic and Nole in Rafa’s path, not the hyperactive Krygios.
VR,
I am another one who is glad you will continue to post here facts and well-formed and substantiated opinions.
I suppose that immediately makes me irrationally pro-fed and pro-djoker. 😉
chloro says:
January 13, 2015 at 1:46 pm
—I suppose that immediately makes me irrationally pro-fed and pro-djoker. 😉 —
Something (but-I-don’t-know-what) can make you pro-Stan also. 😆
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7PemmlCYAIoAX1.png
@chrloro, hahaha you know the script well now 😉 anyway, great to see you here 🙂
Very interesting (from a poster on Tennis-X):
elina Says:
Novak is certainly one of the most consistent of players reaching slam finals (and even more so semis). Amazing stats!
But he is relatively vulnerable in the finals with a 7-7 win-loss record (compared to other greats with more slams to their name):
Emerson 80%
Sampras 78%
Nadal 70%
Borg 69%
Federer 68% (at 33 no less!)
Tilden 67%
Laver 65%
Connors 53%
Agassi 53%
Djokovic 50%
Rosewall 50%
Lendl 42%
Even Djokovic, the great player that he is, has recognized this relative vulnerability which is why he said he hired Boris and why he expressed the importance of winning Wimbledon last year.
I think Djokovic has recognized this and has taken the right steps.
Given the state of the game, he has a real opportunity for the calendar slam, a greater chance than any other player has had in decades. Still a tough ask nut I think he wins two at a minimum this year but most likely three.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVtaVrUAPK0
^^
Another stat where Rafa out-performs Novak.
Meow………….
How many times???????
ritb, what a well formed and substantiated opinion.
Thank you @nadline10, we aim to please!
I would be remiss if I did not recognize the substantiation provided by the great @elina of tennis-x blog, as helpfully provided by our very own @hawkeye63, which allowed for the elucidation of my, ahem, well formed opinion.
Well he is the GOAT, for sure, no? Not only better than Nole but for every other player on the planet (as well as all the other planets)!!!!
A profound observation, @hawkeye63………..
the well-formed and substantiated is VR’s domain …
#WherePraiseIsDue
#HitOneCloseToHomeMuch?
You look like you’ve got your boxing gloves on today, @chloro. Everything okay?