A page and forum to discuss all things Novak Djokovic.
Current ranking: 1
Last result: Banja Luka quarterfinals (lost to Dusan Lajovic)
Next tournament: Rome Masters
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A page and forum to discuss all things Novak Djokovic.
Current ranking: 1
Last result: Banja Luka quarterfinals (lost to Dusan Lajovic)
Next tournament: Rome Masters
Copyright © 2024 | MH Magazine WordPress Theme by MH Themes
Following Djokovic’s loss against Karlovic, I have some observations to share.
Lets compare his performances against the serving giants of tennis (karlovic and Isner) who qiute likely are two of the best servers in the history of tennis, with the performances of the other Big 4 players to put things into perspective.
Djokovic vs Karlovic: 1-2
Djokovic Vs Isner: 5-2
Combined: 6-4 Djokovic
Nadal vs Karlovic: 4-0
Nadal vs Isner: 4-0
Combined: 8-0 Nadal
Federer vs karlovic: 12-1
Federer vs Isner:4-1
Combined:16-2 Federer
Murray vs Karlovic: 5-0
Murray vs Isner:3-0
Combined:8-0 Murray
Summary:
Rafa and Muzz have NEVER lost a match against the serving giants, fed has a staggering 16-2 record. Hence, novak has a ‘disappointing’ 6-4 record. Besides, he is the only one to have a losing record against karlovic. However, interestingly,we (including me) regularly call him the best returner in tennis or at least the man to possess a joint best ROS with Muzz.
So, why is the best returner’s record the worst against the two best servers? Just interested in listening to different thoughts. I have some thoughts to share but first interested in listening to some thoughts of fellow posters đ
His first return shot is better than the rest. Doesn’t mean he necessarily plays a better return game AND he isn’t a great server. That means if he has a bad service game, the pressure doubles up. Federer has always been a better server outright which means these guys can’t break him easily and Nadal has gotten phenomenal since 2010 plus he’s a lefty so there’s that as well.
right. fore example, Nadal’ ROS shot is terrible, but he has a great return game.
@tennisfan, I just saw your comment. I think you have made a good point here. Because fed is a great server himself, he is less tense in return games against giants. Rafa being a lefty allows him to spread the court against the giants and because their movement is not so good, that helps rafa. Novak’s serve can be very good sometimes but I agree it can be shabby sometimes and he even does double faults on crucial points.
But we have also murray who is not that great a server but has a perfect record against isner/ivo . I totally agree with you and RICKY that ROS and return game are very different but having the best ROS should be enough more often than not against players like Ivo because their defense is quite shabby. So still a little confusing haha. i think one reason rafa has arguably the best return game despite having a not so good ROS is his ability to hit insane passing shots! nobody but rafa gets away with short returns because of this ability.
Anyway, a lot of good points have been discussed here and they do help to explain the record I posted.
Thanks @vamosrafa. I saw a similar comparison/analysis on another site and was surprised at what the stats appear to conlude: that Djokovic fares worst against big servers. The one thing that also stood out for me was that Djokovic has run the least times into big servers.
It appears to me Djokovic does not read good first serves that well, and the big servers’ weapon is a good first serve. This may explain, to some extent, why he has a losing record against Rafa and Fed, but a winning record against Muzza whose serve is comparatively poor compared to Rafa and Fed. Of the 3, Djokovic has more difficulty against Fed and Fed is the best server compared against Rafa and Muzza.
Djokovic is a good returner, after the rally is in full swing.
Another thing is Djokovic’s temperament, he appears to lose focus easily and against these big servers you have to stay in the moment, focus. Look at the way Djokovic lost his cool playing Karlovic recently, his run-ins with Roddick are legendary.
Notwithstanding, still intriguing how Djokovic still has the tag, best returner of all time (which I believe he is btw) with that ordinary record against big servers.
I got tired of making this point. I find that many people make assumptions on gut feeling and just following the crowd rather than establishing the facts. Since Djoko saved MP against Fed at the USO 2010 with that FH return made by reflex action he’s been labelled the best returner when really the facts are to the contrary. Rafa also paid him a compliment for his ROS after he lost to him 7 times in 2011/12. I don’t think such accolades should be bestowed after just one swing or one good patch, it has to be maintained over a period of time.
to put some spin on this, here is another stat worth looking at:
Djokovic has played 39 return games against Karlovic (the best server of our generation) and has broken his serve only 2 times so that is 2/39 (approx.5%) for novak.
Nadal is 8/68 (approx.12%).
Murray is 11/76 (approx 14.5%)
These stats obviously allow us to look at pure return games as they do not take into account return points played in tie breaks.
Even when Rafa led for ROS on the Fedex index, I remember Peter Fleming saying inspite of that he would still want Djoko’s ROS to save his life rather than Rafa’s.
that is because peter fleming failed to distinguish between ROS and return game. He should realize how different the two things are. I would also pick novak ROS to save my life to be honest. Rafa has other strengths.
haha…come on we can do this without taking digs at novak!
@ritb, those were some good points about novak’s returning and how he has fared against the big 4 based on your observation. However , I have some reservations. Djokovic is a very very good returner of first serves. in 2011 he was totally manhandling rafa’s 1st serves and it was only rafa introduced variety that he started having success.
Muzz actually has a better first serve than rafa and when he is serving really well, his first serve is not far away from fed’s 1st serve. it is muzz’s 2nd serve that is much inferior to that of rafa and especially fed and his 2nd serves do get eaten for breakfast by novak.
I do like the point about novak losing temperament ! That can definitely be a reason. he can run out of patience and we know Karlovic and Isner test your patience to a very large extent. So that is one plausible explanation.
What else have we got here folks? đ
@vamosrafa, agreed re how Novak manhandled Rafa’s first serve in 2011 but I respectfully submit that:
(a) Rafa’s serve has never been a strong point for him except in 2010 when he umped it up and it yielded his first USOpen crown. If I remember, that good serving year gave him problems with his shoulder and his serve tapered off after that, hence the lack-luster serving performance in 2011. I would say in 2011 Rafa’s serve reverted to it’s normal non-descript self, which was: to use the first serve to set up his destructive follow-up FH. So, in 2011 (up to now I would say) Rafa was not using his first serve to elicit a winner (which is what big servers like Karlovic and Raonic do and flummox Novak with success) but to set up his follow -up strong shot. This is where Djokovic outfoxed him because he would return Rafa’s serve to Rafa’s BH, not FH and take command of the rally.
Now, Rafa varies his serve well (as you correctly say) and this is one of the reason he is having success against Djokovic.
For me, a good serve is not just a winning 1st serve but also a serve with variety which flummoxes the returner.
Maybe I did not express myself well. The point I was trying to make is this: Djokovic is not a good reader/returner of GOOD first serves. Rafa varying his 1st serve made an otherwise ordinary first serve a good first serve.
Rafa, on the other hand, reads good first serves better, imo, hence his excellent record against big servers…………..
(b) Muzza has a good first serve but better than Rafa’s? I demure on the latter for the exact reason you proffered yourself: Rafa’s variety in the serve! When Muzza’s serve is on, he is more likely to get more winners off his first serve than Rafa, but Muzza’s problem is that his serve performance is quite erratic, while Rafa’s is more consistent.
I do not know how to pull up the FedEx serve performance of the Top guys but I would be very interested in viewing those statics if someone can pull them up. I am sure these will show Muzza with more aces than Rafa, but a lower first serve percentage.
Your point on Muzza’s second serve, agree on all counts but I do not think the 2nd serve matters very much in explaining the stats you posted in your first post. Horse’s bolted once you get to the 2nd serve imo……………
@nadline, well I do not think anyone is making assumptions based on gut feelings. Djokovic possessed exceptionally good returning skills from his teenage years. Even if you look at his matches against rafa and roger 2007, his ROS was outstanding. He developed it into an ever more effective weapon 2010 onward.Remember rafa’s 2010 near-invincible USO serve? of course you do.Novak broke that serve in the first three of rafas service games of the USO 2010 final! Again, remember rafa’s serving in the summer hard court season of 2013? rafa was carrying a streak of like 90 successive holds heading into the final and still there were parts in the match when novak was all over rafa’s serve. So there is reason rafa called him the best returner ever!
I don’t think the USO semi return winner to save match point has anything to do with labeling djokovic as the best returner! it was actually 2011 USO , not 2011.
not 2010*
I actually agree with peter fleming! but with a qualification.As I have said a million times before , having the best return of serve (the initial return stroke off the serve) is very different from having the best RETURN GAME. Rafa arguably has the best return game but his ROS is actually inferior to some even outside the big 4. But rafa’s return game is so damn good that a very strong case(backed up by stats shown by the atp ROS indexes) can be made in his favor to possess the best return game. But, novak is clearly steps ahead in ROS . Only Murray and Ferrer can match Novak’s ROS in my view. A case for ferrer having the best ROS in tennis can also be made!
Rafa’s ROS has improved recently, he just used to return to keep the ball in play but now Rafa is amongst the best.
It was since the USO SF match point save against Fed that Nole’s ROS got recognised. Still Rafa has an impeccable record against Karlovic. Raonic and Isner – 13-0. Rafa even baggled in Barcelona Raonic.
So @vamosrafa, in your opinion, why does Novak have such a bad record against the big hitters compared to his peers (Rafa, Muzza and Fed)? Why doesn’t his superior return of serve skill tell in these situations?
I also would love to learn more about this…………….
you made good points in the previous post. The point about novak returning to rafa’s backhand is a very good one. In 2011, actually rafa kept relying on his usual patterns. Using the slider outwide on the ad court and the swinging serve on the deuce court to set up forehands. But novak returned sliders to rafa’s forehand so damn well and mixed it up by returning up the line to rafa’s backhand. It was the serve on the deuce court to novak’s backand that was really hurting rafa. Novak returned those to rafa’s backhand like a machine. Rafa’s serve to novak’s forehand on the deuce court was introduced in 2012 and is the biggest serving weapon for rafa.
regarding rafa’s 2010 serve, refer to my post in response to nadline.
further @nadline, to put things into perspective , look at rafa’s serving stats (service games won) in 2010 and 2013 and even for 2008. Do this and you will get the answer. Dozens of players have a better serve than rafa but rafa has been able to rank as high as no.2 in the service games won index once! now use this to think about ROS vs return game thing.
well,, here is why I think novak has the worst record:
I agree with the point made by you regarding novak losing his temper and points made by RITB regarding the playing conditions,novak’s mental strength as compared to Nadal and fed( although many would say he is mentally stronger than fed). Even the point about novak not being the best in terms of reading first serves.
I think ,novak has the best ROS overall BUT, he really is NOT the master of bunting back returns ! He loves to take swipes at the ball! While he can shorten his backswing but the pace and trajectory with which Ivo serves for example, sometimes its much more effective to simply chip the ball back into play and federer is the prime example of doing that with the backhand! Rafa can do this really well with both his forehand and the backhand but he can sometimes struggle against big servers in fast conditions. (kyrgios,rosol for example on grass) but rafa does that better than novak.
Andy has perhaps the most well-rounded ROS! he can take full swipes at the ball, shorten his backswing but also employ chips and bunts very effectively.
It think all the points discussed here combined explain this discrepancy.
More thoughts are welcome đ
would love to hear more thoughts on this . It surely is intriguing that the best returner of the game in most people’s eyes has the worst record against the two best servers of the game.
Djoko has managed to avoid the giants most of the time. Up till this year, he had only played Karlovic twice in his whole career both times in 2008. Rafa’s first match against Karlovic was at the age of 18 in 2004 and Rafa won even giving him a breadstick.
2004 Milan
Italy Carpet R32 Nadal, Rafael
7-5, 6-7(5), 6-1 Stats
I do know that two of those four losses were in hot dry weather where Nole can still not be at his best the most recent in a dust storm. I will have to look up the other two losses.
Mental strength and patience is another factor as Fed and Rafa excell above Nole there IMO.
Finally I’d look at each of the top four’s career hold serve and break serve percentages and compare the respective difference for each player.
Two of those loses were at IW and now Doha in tough weather conditions. Where were the other two losses?
hawkeye, one loss to karlovic took place in Madrid . Dr.Ivo won in straight sets. The fourth loss happened against Isner in Cincinnati last year.
But I like your thoughts. Novak does stuggle in those conditions but the ROS should not be affected too much ? these two giants ,esp Ivo,dont engage you in many baseline rallies.
Aactually two of those losses were in Madrid, one in 2005 when Nole wasjust 18 and the other in 2008 in two tiebreaks.
Regardless three of the four losses were before 2011 and before Djokovic was the plan was the player he is today.
I think it’s just a combination of the above.
hawkeye, the madrid loss took place in 2008, not 2005.
There were two i believe. The 1st in 05.
Before Doha this year Djoko and Karlovic had only played twice, both in 2008 and Djoko was not 18 in 2008 he was 21. Where did you get 2005 from?
What’s your excuse for the new improved post 2010 Djokovic losing to Isner in 2012 & 2013 and Karlovic in 2015?
^^
Loss to Isner in 2012: the heat and humidity in Cincy
Loss to Karlovic in 2015: the wind (no, not from the gluten free beans he had before the match!) in Doha, desert sand-storm.
How dare they play tennis outdoors?
So forget what I said about pre-2.0 Nole and the serve/return game stats. They don’t even factor after checking.
Isner’s two wins were in Cincy and IW after 2011. Both hot, sunny, humid conditions. Same as his loss to Ivo this week in Doha. 2008 was pre-gluten/egg-Nole and in two tie-breaks.
But VR, I knew you would have some tennis savvy explanation for it and what you’ve said is very insightful as always. đ
Other factors and disclaimers as always but Rafa has three significant losses to giants 6’4″ and taller in Kyrgios, Soderling and Rosol.
hawkeye63 says:
January 11, 2015 at 4:22 pm
—Rafa has three significant losses to giants 6â4âł and taller in Kyrgios, Soderling and Rosol—
You have channeled your inner Fedfan.
As always, nothing of substance to contribute. Nothing new.
Yep, Sod is Fedfans’ longtime hero.
“Rafa has three significant losses to giants 6â4âł and taller in Kyrgios, Soderling and Rosol.”
@hawkeye63;
1. Rafa always has a tough time with hard hitters first time he plays them. This is borne out by the fact that none of the people you mentioned ever beat Rafa again. The jury is still out on Kyrgios obviously.
2. When Rafa played and lost to Soderling, he was injured. When Djokovic played, and lost, to any of the giants out there, what physical impairement did he suffer from? We all know Rafa lost to Rosol, Soderling, Kyrgios etc, etc but I think it is unfair to sort of hold up these losses in absolute comparison to others. No, I do not think I am being a blind Rafan for pointing this out, I just want a “like for like” comparison here. I know some Rafans have said Rafa’s injuries are his fault, okay one may take that line but this does not mean they did not exist. They have to be acknowledged. These are not excuses, they were real.
The same applies to Rafa’s loss to Rosol, he was injured.
You have mentioned the extenuating circumstances for Novak re his losses to the giants: the wind, the humidity, the shape of the moon etc, etc, why not do the same for Rafa eh?
All Im
hawkeye hates Rafa and it shows.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-upXOEJkABqs/T8ZJHoW__PI/AAAAAAAABRU/yvbA8IyHSKE/s200/dexter-haters-gonna-hate.gif
hawkeye, in Nole’s case, does it matter if there is a ‘r’ in the month. You are so full of excuses except in Rafa’s case when you try to put him in the worst light possible.
Hawkeye, thanks for the kind words đ
the point about Novak struggling in hot,dry,humid conditions is valid but it is not like he not able to play well at all in these conditions,no?You don’t have to be at your brutal best get the better of karlovic or isner. The ability to return serve with one stroke won’t really get affected in whatever conditions. Does Novak not dominate the Aus open despite it being the hottest slam? I understand your point. Yes, in cincinnati , novak got his serve broken against isner by netting three forehands and he was struggling in the conditions but I do think that the inability to make inroads into the service games of Ivo and Isner in the past can be attributed to other factors too.
Novak lost to Ivo in straight sets in 2008 when novak was a fantastic player. He was no.3 in the world and was challenging rafa and roger consistently. The glutten diet effect was not there in 2008 but the glutten effect is hardly relevant in a match against karlovic lol. It was an indoor match and karlovic does not even test your stamina so….
Anyway, i do think some good points have been discussed. I gave my reasons in the post ‘January 11, 2015 at 2:30 pm’ and it was good to read other reasons.
@augusta , I am no moderator here but I wish this discussion not be turned into a highly counterproductive one. I don’t understand the obsession of labelling rafa fans as fed lovers. I just don’t
Yes he dominates generally but the pressure is extreme against a serving giant and the heat while not physically a big factor, may still be a mental one.
The heat is also a factor in how Nole lost to Nishi at the USO both mentally and physically.
As I said though, your insights on service return style is very insightful.
yes, cannot deny that. Those conditions have led to nole’s undoing on several occasions. His loss to nishikori at USO 2014, his loss to tsonga in Aus open 2010 are two of the examples
vamosrafa says:
January 11, 2015 at 5:20 pm
—@augusta , I am no moderator here but I wish this discussion not be turned into a highly counterproductive one. —
Then don’t turn it into that!
who are you to instruct me to do that? I did not instruct you to anything so I used the word wish! Keep your instructive tone to yourself.
For both players win or lose they tend to struggle against the Giants.
They tend to lose more against them when there are other factors at play. Injury for Rafa and heat for Nole. Kyrgios is definitely a hard hitting giant. No jury required.
I don’t need to point out Rafa’s injuries here. They are already known to everyone here. Who would benefit here from me restating them?
Federer is the exception although Milos beat him once as did Izzy.
“I donât need to point out Rafaâs injuries here. They are already known to everyone here. Who would benefit here from me restating them?”
For the sake of balance, maybe? Unless you do not think that is important, or necessary…..
Why did you feel the need to mention the extenuating circumstances for Novak, were they not known to everyone here?
I think those factors may have been neglected possibly yes given that we weren’t considering where those matches took place
If you feel I’m out to get Rafa that’s ok. I’m not going to explain every last detail especially when we already know them just to defend myself. Las I’ve long said, I’m not out to convince anyone of my allegiances.
You raise a great point on first encounters.
Whatevs.
No, I do not feel you are out to get Rafa, nor did I say that.
I feel your argument above lacked balance in that you did not outline extenuating circumstances for Rafa like you did for Novak. You explained why you did not feel it necessary to do so for Rafa. I felt you could have.
Nothing in my posts suggests you have a vendetta against Rafa. I am sorry if that is what you read in them.
karlovic once beat federer too…haha… but yeah, rafa’s loss against kyrgios did highlight again that rafa is not comfortable with big servers and big hitters in fast conditions. I was actually very annoyed at the fact that rafa was not even able to get kyrgios’s first serves back. He was having a crazy serving day but rafa was not able to get any read on it. Kyrgios’s ground game also troubled him and we know it can be a trouble for rafa. Regarding returns, rafa does not have the best of instincts because of the way he was trained early in his career. Fed has sharper instincts and perhaps djokovic too. When rafa stands close to the baseline to return serves on grass, he can struggle because he is not able to buy time! he is able to stand far back on clay and hard but not on grass.
Yes, rafa would have crushed soderling had he not been injured in 2009 RG but it is no secret he has struggled against soderling. Remember WTF 2009 and wimbledon 2007? wimbledon 2007 was a very very tough contest and yes rafa was not himself in wtf 2009 but he did struggle against soderling.
Finally, it is also true that rafa is able to solve the big hitters dilemma very well. he does not lose to them again because of his problem solving abilities. Kyrgios won’t beat him again.
VR I Wish you’d post here more often. You’d be great on tennis-x.
WTF 2009, that was the WTF where he lost all his matches, no? Wimbledon 2007, yes he struggled against Soderling in the early rounds and reached the final. I think Wimbledon is a tournament where it is accepted Rafa will struggle in the early rounds so that struggle against Soderling could be interpreted as general to Rafa, not specific to Soderling.
#RafaApologist
@hawkeye, I will hopefully be posting more and I hope we can have good tennis discussions đ I sometimes visit tennis-x and there are interesting debates going on sometimes.
@RITB, yes rafa lost all of his matches . He was not at all at his best but losing all three of his matches cannot be solely attributed to that. before some posters jump on me , I am saying it again that it was a very big factor but certainly not the only factor. Why am I saying that? because his other two opponents were djokovic and davydenko and beating them in fast indoor conditions is well, a very difficult task for rafa!so losing to soderling 6-4 6-4 was a combination of both the factors.
There is nothing very particular about soderling’s game which can be said to trouble rafa but because soderling as a package had a lot of weapons that cause rafa trouble, he was a tough guy to deal with on some occasions . I mean, the way soderling troubled him was through consistent big,deep hitting. Soderling had a huge forehand and the biggest backhand in the game perhaps. his serve was huge too. But, the thing about rafa is that when he is in full flow and playing with confidence, momentum, he can overcome these obstacles. The rafa of 2008 was playing like superman in that Clay-grass stretch and he beat gulbis in 4 sets in wimbledon 08 even though gulbibs was on fire and had all the weapons needed to trouble rafa on grass.
@nadline, yes just about everyone has had their share of troubles against big hitters . true. but,as an example, we can take federer as does not have a history of getting ‘that much’ troubled by big,flat hitters. Look at his records against blake (10-1), gonzalez (12-1) , soderling (16-1), del potro (15-5). Not only the ROS, but also the forehand becomes a factor. Rafa’s forehand is not as effective against big hitting in fast conditions as his fed’s. Fed might have struggled against them on diff occasions but if you talk about their careers and how they play, it is a point. There are certainly qualifications here but generally its true,no? for e.g fed has a poor record against berdych (who is not typically a giant but has some attributes).
Fed on the other hand has struggled against grinders on occasions! while rafa would pulverize grinders like guillermo canas, fed lost to him twice in 2007 ! he has lost to simon twice as well!
A peak form rafa can take down players of any type, no questions about it. But we cannot always have players at their peak forms right? so we talk about the general thing.
VR ” but yeah, Rafaâs loss against Kyrgios did highlight again that Rafa is not comfortable with big servers and big hitters in fast conditions.”
Could you tell me which players are comfortable with big hitters in fast conditions?
I hope I live to see the day Djokovic is pitted against a big server in the 1st or 2nd round of Wimbledon.
#NotHoldingMyBreath
VR: “I am saying it again that it was a very big factor but certainly not the only factor. Why am I saying that? because his other two opponents were djokovic and davydenko and beating them in fast indoor conditions is well, a very difficult task for rafa! ”
Djoko leads Rafa 3:2 indoors hardly a difficult task for Rafa.
oh come on! don’t lie to yourself. you know that I am talking about. beating djokovic on an INDOOR hard court IS a very very difficult task for rafa. I cannot do anything about your delusion if you are so in love with it like always. Now if I try to put things into perspective here, you will tag me as a fed detractor in your next post! same old….
Not that difficult if Rafa has done it twice in straight sets.
I wish people would stop making sweeping statements about how awful Rafa is and how he can’t cope with this or that type of player without checking the facts.
LOL..and here we go again
and I wish you stop doing this! Don’t tell me what the facts are .please.
Sometimes you sound so reasonable that I think only extremist posters who post comments like ‘why does rafa have losing records against dominic hrbaty and alex corretja and davydenko ?’ . I came across such a comments and I was thinking how ridiculous a point this is and fed fanatics keep bringing this up, you are actually no different if we look at it. right??
So saying that it is very difficult for rafa to beat djokovic on an indoor hard court is making sweeping statement about how awful rafa is and how he can’e cope with this or that type of player bla bla bla..?? wow… i am sorry for being so ignorant.
2011 onward, djokovic trails rafa only 4-5 on clay court matches and actually leads rafa 4-3 in best of three set matches. so does that mean post 2010 djokovic is superior to rafa in best of three set matches on clay or can someone counter’ it is very very difficult for novak to beat rafa on clay’ by citing this 4-5 example??? i would say NO! rafa is the daddy on clay! Looking at the context is important and sometimes the use of such stats should not take precedence over common sense! please. Rafa is much superior on clay and djokovic is supeior on indoor hard, and my favorite player is rafael nadal for life and I do not need a license from you.please.
Yes, tennis started in 2011.
okay. great, we are innocent. So with the same innocence, i guess you will never be able to say anything to those idiots who say rafa has a losing record against Dominic Hrbaty and Alex Corretja so rafa is inferior to them.
VR, how do you explain Rafa’s 13:0 record against Karlovic, Isner and Raonic? Karlovic, 4:0, Isner, 4:0 and Raonc 5:0.
I have written sufficient explanation on this in my earlier posts. the premise of the discussion was to discuss WHY DJOKOVIC has struggled against Ivo and Isner. Some of djo’s weaknesses against the two are actually rafa’s strengths against the two. For other factors, re read my posts and also by hawkeye. Let me know if there is confusion,
So we started talking about Djokovic’s problem against the giants and somehow it ended up with putting Rafa down even though he’s never lost to any of the giants just to make Djokovic look good.
I get it.
“Rafa down even though heâs never lost to any of the giants”
But he has.
tsk tsk indeed. I have a hunch as to why VR doesn’t post more often. There is no reasoning with the unreasonable.
only the following will keep you happy:
rafa is the best player of this generation not only clay, but also on grass, outdoor hard and also indoor hard and is it NOT AT ALL difficult for rafa to beat any player on the planet on any surface. happy?
I wish rafa was that invincible but he is not. he has his limitations and he himself acknowledges that. thankfully he is not so full of himself . He has overcome weaknesses throughout his career and will continue to do so. I am confident he’ll be the all-time grand slam title leader when he retires but why should I say rafa has no limitations! why don’t you criticize rafa when he keeps downplaying his chances even at RG or when he says federer is greatest or that federer has more weapons or toni nadal in that case when toni used to tell rafa in his teen years that federer is a much superior player and rafa can only beat him by taking adv of the match up thing?
@hawkeye, it is sad to see that discussing tennis on this forum invites attacks like these. Of course many don’t feel welcome to post here for the same reason,.
VR: “I wish rafa was that invincible but he is not. he has his limitations and he himself acknowledges that. thankfully he is not so full of himself”
As opposed to Djokovic who has no limitations and no weaknesses.
now where the heck have I or anyone said djokovic does not have any limitations or weaknesses? i feel sorry for you,seriously!
djokovic’s legend is nowhere close to rafa’s . Rafa has had a much more successful career to date and he is arguably the GOAT while djokovic is just in the list of all-time greats.
Djokovic’s biggest career weakness/problem in his own words has been a man named rafael nadal who has prevented djokovic from lifting the elusive RG title on so many occasions and also two USO titles! Djokovic has often struggled against federer but rafa has demolished federer time and time again. And cannot you see the discussion was based on dicussing DJOKOVIC’s weaknesses against Ivo and Isner and I disussed them at good length???
Rafa’s career>> djokovic’s career BUT is rafa better than djokovic on every surface or in every possible condition? NO !
I disagree with your assessment on things.
yes, you are that innocent. I am guilty as charged. I am attacking you.
thanks!
You don’t want to ‘discuss’ tennis, you just want everyone to agree with you even though some of the things you say don’t tie up with the facts.
lol, no I don’t want everyone to agree with me. What I do want is people not labeling me as a rafa detractor or crap like that!
if you have disagreements with my posts, stop your one-liners and discuss tennis then. Which of the things I said are not tying up with facts? even if some of the things are not, it does not matter sometimes. If you are so robotic about facts, what do you say to those idiots saying dominic hrbaty and alex corretja and davydenko are superior to rafa because of their winning record?? going by the wonderful logic you present, you should then have nothing to say about this absurd claim!!
vamosrafa
January 11, 2015 at 9:40 pm
Is anyone else attacking like YOU are doing?!
https://twitter.com/augustaZzeight/status/554395773040099328/photo/1
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7GdUeoCcAEzIf0.png
yeah , I am the ultimate basher here and you caught me!
How conveniently you skipped the nonsense that always gets to the head of so many posters here!
“I wish people would stop making sweeping statements about how awful Rafa is and how he canât cope with this or that type of player…..”
the theme sounds familiar right?
you are actually even better than nadline at doing that so ….
poor you two are ringed by rafa detractors and they are bullying you all the time đ
vamosrafa
January 11, 2015 at 10:12 pm
I didn’t understand anything you wrote.
great.
Yes, YOU!
As usual!
vamosrafa, I think I have made my points clearly enough so I will end this discussion here. You are entitled to your opinions.
I am actually confused about what your ‘opinion’ is? I have given several opinions such as: djokovic struggles more against Ivo/Isner, djokovic’s career is much inferior to rafa’s, djokovic is superior on indoor hard courts and has a better ROS. these are some of the opinions I have given. I don’t know what your opinions are ! are they : it is not difficult for rafa to beat novak on indoor hard courts? that rafa is matchless on all possible accounts and that he has the best return of serve in the game and that he has no more problems dealing with big hitters than anyone else out there ? or that rafa has the best biceps in the history of the game? perhaps these are your opinions. You are of course entitled to them but yes I strongly disagree. I can end the discussion here too!
vamosrafa,
You don’t need to defend yourself. You gave your opinions and thoughts in a knowledgeable and reasonable manner. There will always be the same one or two who will take things out of context, bring up for the umpteenth time that you are a closet Fed fan posing as a Rafa fan, and on and on.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts on Novak and Rafa and all things tennis. Hopefully, we can engage in some decent discussions about tennis as we go forward in this new year.
nny, taking things out of context and then ruining any discussion is commonly done here. I too hope we can have decent discussions about tennis .
VR you have great tennis knowledge. I’ve watched the game for 40 years but I cannot analyze it and break it down technically the way you do. Do you play yourself?
#PDFTT
hawkeye,
Well said! I just hope that vamosrafa doesn’t get discouraged and stops posting. Whether I agree with vamosrafa or not, I do like reading his thoughts because of his detailed knowledge of the game. It’s a pleasure.
@hawkeye and NNY, I can only thanks for the kind words. Well-informed and insightful posters like you have contributed to whatever knowledge I have and I hope you guys keep posting because if posters like you don’t, I guess I won’t be here too!
hawkeye, I have played tennis for quite some time but it was only for recreation purposes. My experience of watching the game is not even close to yours. In fact, my age ,25, is 15 years less than your experience lol.I only started watching in 2004-05 and it was rafa who attracted me to tennis. Since then , there has been passionate following of the game đ
Well it’s very insightful. You’d make a good tennis analyst. With posters like yourself, I’ll definitely stick around.
I simply cannot believe how well Federer is playing at 33. I finally got around to watching his win over Raonic who himself I thought played the best tennis I’ve watched him play (after the first set). Raonic’s net play has really come along and his forehand has even more pace and accuracy. He really had Fed on the run for much of the match. BH while improving still has a long way to go!
Thanks hawkeye đ
I enjoy reading your posts too esp when you post interesting stats and observations.
I agree Raonic has improved quite a lot! His forehand is potent and a big weapon for him now. He has improved the variety in as well as consistency of his backhand but as you said, there is still a long way to go. His movement has marginally gotten better too, i believe. The thing about raonic is that he is very good at imposing his own game and he is able to stay calm by playing on his strength (his service games). Players like dimitrov have not really been able to impose their games against quality players so far.
I also enjoy WRITING my posts about tennis (more than other things)>
Agreed, Raonic’s movement has improved.