A page on which to interact with and get to know fellow “Grandstand” users.
Copyright © 2024 | MH Magazine WordPress Theme by MH Themes
A page on which to interact with and get to know fellow “Grandstand” users.
Copyright © 2024 | MH Magazine WordPress Theme by MH Themes
Can’t believe it!!!And to think how quickly Ricky removed amy’s post the other day!!!
Exactly Mira Andi urgh ….
Yeah Al!…And i came here again,almost 2 hours after my last post…and that disgusting post still there…wake up Ricky!wake up!
Message for Hawkeye:
What happened to the great stats site you introduced me to years ago? It no longer seems to be working – at least I can’t access it these days.
Just saw this now ed. Not sure which site you are referring to but this one is my favourite and still very much active…
tennisabstract.com
Thanks Hawkeye. Cant recall the name of the site either and as you know I lost all my data when my computer burnt out following a power surge. Will try tennis abstract.
Thom YorkeVerified account @thomyorke
would we like a say in our future? are we sick of being told to leave it to those who “know best ” ? V o T e ! https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote …
#RESIST
The callous, cowardly terrorist attack in the UK which killed and maimed concert goers on Monday night – many of them teeny-boppers – has left the nation in shock. You don’t need to be a parent to imagine what it is like for the parents who lost a child in the carnage or are still searching. The youngest was an 8yr girl.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/manchester-arena-terror-attack-salman-abedi-ariana-grande-victims/
Not obvious how an attack in which the attacker is fully prepared to die is “cowardly”. Callous, terrorist, evil, to be morally condemned in no uncertain terms? Absolutely.
What then should we say about the US-led attacks that have killed far more innocent civilians, and far more children, in recent months -in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, and elsewhere? Many of those attacks really are cowardly, most obviously, those carried out by drones.
What does it take for us Westerners to imagine what it must be like to be the parent of one of the hundreds of those Middle-Eastern children killed just in March by US and UK bombers?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-coalition-air-strikes-isis-russia-kill-more-civilians-march-middle-east-iraq-syria-network-for-a7663881.html
@Joe….Thank u thank u thank u for your words and sympathy for those innocent victims in the middle east that was killed like their lives not worth a cent…U don’t know how much your words have moved me..and even more so because you’re a Westerner…Thank u for being a great human being Joe!
Thanks, Mira.
The attacks you reference in your link in March however, are horrific and shouldn’t have occurred IMO and I question their intent given the current regime and Trump’s prior positive comments on Assad.
I don’t trust the Trump government motives there now. I believe he’s aligned with Russia which is supporting the Assad regime.
I hadn’t realized that you were referring to recent months so your point is taken.
I my view it is wrong to compare unlawful acts by terrorists with atrocities committed while fighting under the engagement of war.
I completely agree with ed. No comparision.
ed,
Bravo! Well said! You make an important distinction here.
Wrong how? Most of the western attacks are clearly unlawful as well (e.g. Trump’s recent missile attack). There is no legal basis for the US involved in Syria, either directly or by proxy. Being engaged in an unlawful and unjust war does not morally excuse killing thousands of innocent people, to put it mildly.
My point is simply this. Those hundreds of children killed by US/UK bombs in March in the middle east are no less innocent than that 8 year old killed in Manchester. Yet, while the latter death merits headlines around the world, cause for reflection, and so forth; the former, much more numerous deaths pass us by, their number increasing each day, their lives, as Mira puts it, not worth a cent.
What about Isis and other terrorist groups who use civilians and deliberately put them in harms way? Is that just fine and dandy with you?
No one is saying that the lives of some children are led important or less valuable. But civilians have been used by corrupt regimes and terrorist groups and put in places where they become casualties.
Please save your moral outrage because in armed conflict civilians have been tragically killed throughout history.
You want moral outrage? Think about what happened in WWII! There are too many examples of atrocities against innocent civilians to even list. Then there were the concentration camps!
War is hell! No one ever said it wasn’t!
But if you can’t make the distinction between the arbitrary targeting of civilians just for the sake of it, anywhere, any time, then you are not gettIng it at all.
Sorry, NNY, but although some civilian casualties may be due to people deliberately being put in harms way, the vast majority are not. It’s convenient to believe from a western point of view, but it’s not true, not even close.
Hawk, I made no claim to moral equivalence. Plenty of acts short of terrorism are morally wrong and worthy of condemnation, particularly when we are the perpetrators.
In Oct. 2015 the US air force bombed a MSF (Doctors Without Borders) hospital in Kunduz, killing more innocent people than were killed in Manchester. They knew the coordinates of the hospital, which was lit up. MSF called immediately to tell the US military that they were bombing the hospital; the bombing continued for over an hour.
You can draw your own conclusions about how ‘accidental’ the attack was. There are many other cases.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
So what is your point, Joe? The only point you seem to be making is that the terrorist strikes are a just return for the atrocities committed by the US/UK. Also you seem to think Islamic terrorism is courageous and US strikes are cowardly. In the US, you can talk of human rights and criticize US. You should stay in a Middle East country. Let us know thereafter what are your thoughts about US.
Don’t get me wrong Joe – I disagree with a lot of what the US has done in the past, especially Iraq War for example.
However…
You equated Manchester bombing directly targeted on civilian children to “MOST of the Western attacks” including US involvement in Syria, which are not directed at civilians.
That is a false equivalency and a gross over simplification.
Mary, my initial point was simply that as we think about the victims of the Manchester attack, we spare a thought for the many more innocent victims of US led attacks in recent months.
I said nothing about the relationship between the Manchester attack and US-led bombing in the middle east. But since you bring it up, I do think, with many others, that there is a relationship. To be absolutely clear, I think we need to carefully distinguish *explanation* -why these attacks are happening- from *justification*. To give a possible explanation for why a terrorist attack occurred is in no way to justify it, and I explicitly condemned the Manchester attack in no uncertain terms, as I do all terrorist attacks on innocent people.
At least since 9/11 the concept of “blowback” has been fairly mainstream in the west. US actions in the middle east have killed a lot of innocents and made a lot of others very angry; and they continue to do so. It is not a stretch to say that those US-led actions are a significant part (obviously not the whole part) of the explanation for some terrorist attacks on westerners.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, the sympathizers like you are taking for granted the good things that US gives them and looking at the bad things and siding with the terrorists. You really should live in the Middle East to have a proper perspective.
US is not perfect because obviously it is run by humans who have faults. But it has a system based on great principles and slowly but surely many injustices have been addressed and will continue to be addressed. What is the system that the Middle East or the terrorists have which is tending to a better world. They practice medieval beliefs and use modern tools and weapons.
Though a war is bad, it cannot be equated with terrorism. Many idealists are attracted by the cause of the terrorists but wherever the terrorists have succeeeded in seizing power, they have proved to be even more venal and corrrupt than the establishment they had overturned.
Absolutely agree, Joe. Well said.
Joe’s 10:04 pm post is what i’m referring to.
What injustices will Trump continue to address Mary?
Did I say anything about Trump?
You said continue. You must have meant 4-8 years from now which would mean that you have a broader definition of ‘continue’ than I do. My mistake.
What’s you opinion on Trump Mary? Any positives? Negatives?
Joe,
You argument is disturbing in a few ways. You casually dismiss the well known practice of putting innocent civilians in places that have berm targeted for bombing. Like – no biggie! Are you kidding with that? I. Sn’t take you seriously when you are blind to selective atrocities, yet can condemn civilian killings in war. It’s the ultimate cowardice and absence of morality to ignore the practice of deliberately putting civilians in harm’s way.
You had nothing to say about WWII. Are you just ignoring the deaths of so many innocent civilians? Concentration camps? No biggie to you either?
You are making a very simplistic argument and ignoring the very real differences between acts of war and random acts of terror and violence perpetrated on innocent civilians.
What about 9/11? Was that okay because we have made mistakes asa country? Just take some planes and crash them into the twin towers and kill 3000 innocent people? Are you outraged Bout that? Or did they deserve to die in your simplistic morality?
You miss the point Joe. In the minds of the terrorists obviously they think it is payback for the wickedness of the West. What is disturbing is that you seem to agree with them and actually have admiration for their courage in blowing themselves up rather than using a drone which you apparently think is cowardly.
NNY, it’s an empirical question how many western caused civilian deaths (“collateral damage”) are due to innocent people being put in harms way. I claim that it is comparatively rare, which is the view of the major human rights organizations such as Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, and others. Even the US does not generally claim that the civilians it kills have deliberately been put in harms way, although of course it does happen sometimes.
I have been very careful not to justify any terrorist attacks, including 9/11. I condemn all such attacks.
Not sure why you bring up WWII. Nothing I said depends on anything that happened in that war.
Mary, I said nothing about terrorist attacks being courageous and don’t believe them to be. But if either type of attack is cowardly, yes, I would think it would be the one conducted from a safe distance rather than the one carried out by a person prepared to die for his cause.
Again, if “payback” is understood as part of an explanation, not a justification, then I -along with many others, including analysts who work for the US government, think that western actions in the Mideast have some role to play in explaining why terrorists target westerners.
Children and adolescents were directly and intentionally targeted in Manchester.
Innocent people were targeted in Manchester.
#FalseEquivalencyIsEverywhere
There have been successful movements like the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Reformation…against unjust orders but they were led by leaders with a vision of greater power for the people. What is the world order these religious terrorists want to bring to replace the “evil” systems of the “wicked” west?
I said nothing about grand visions. Obviously, I don’t support medieval minded leaders such as ISIS, but it is naïve in the extreme to think that that is why the US and its allies are fighting.
Again you are confusing terrorism with war. The point is, there is no justification whatever for terrorism which targets innocent people. The us and its allies are fighting a war for the same reason wars have been fought down the ages. For power and money. As a side benefit, wars have resulted in great improvement in technology including computers. War is a systematic and organized effort where the forces of one or more countries fight against another group. There is strategy, there is negotiation, there is a method. But in case of terrorism, it is just an act of evil. I strongly recommend rc and you go and stay in one of those countries you admire and then I would like to hear your views about how disillusioned you are with what is happening in the US.
Once you concede that wars are fought for power and money (a realistic assumption), you have nothing left to defend US-led actions. Innocent people in those middle east countries are not there to be used as means to profit, greed, or technological advances. Each of them has a life like you and I do, and it is evil to take it from them for purposes of power and money.
Even if there is a moral difference between war and terrorism, wars kill a lot more innocent people than do acts of terrorism.
Not sure why you keep telling me to go and live in the Mideast. Not everyone who lives there shares your views, even in pro-western countries such as Israel:
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/refuseniks-occupations-underbelly/
Particularly appalling was the mother of all bombs used on Afghanistan recently and how it’s use is glorified by the press.
Yes, and it’s hard to find any mention of whether that bomb killed innocent people and if so how many.
Agreed.
Joe,
There may have been detailed report about civilians killed either on Democracy Now or The Intercept online.
I went looking but I only have my android. I’m waiting for my new laptop. Anyway I ran across this article you might be interested in reading.
https://theintercept.com/2017/05/23/british-intelligence-warned-tony-blair-of-manchester-like-terrorism-if-the-west-invaded-iraq/
You don’t have to share my views. I wanted you to have a better perspective.
Are you talking to me? or Joe?
You want me to have a better perspective? A better perspective, from what I’ve read of yours, is unlikely to come to me from you!
Somebody who thinks she knows everything is unlikely to benefit from anyone, not just me. They say ignorance is bliss and so you seek bliss by wallowing in your ignorance.
But for the record, I was talking to Joe.
The gratuitous advice you gave me about trolling, why don’t you take it for yourself?
Did I say anything about admiring them? NO!
But neither do I admire normalizing perpetual war. War for greed and profit is not something I support!!!
The thing is, war is normal. War is always for power and money. If the Middle East were more powerful, they would be bombing us. So we should be happy we are more powerful. You should study history and economics to understand why wars are inevitable. Do you know why the great civilizations of the past collapsed and others rose?
When Karl Marx proposed his new order, it was perfect but in practice, any system which does not account for human greed and venality is not perfect.
Oh please. As if I’m naive to history. You like to get personal and you assume much. That’s why I won’t discuss this with you.
Who got personal and assumed much? It is you. Shall I give you an example? You got personal with me and called me a troll and attacked me. You had no business to do it as you did not know about amy’s history and you were not involved. Secondly you claimed her situation on tenngrand was like yours on tennis-x. you knew you were not lakie. Did you know amy was not margot? You assumed much, my dear. But I refrained from responding to you. Now you have gone too far attacking me again. You are obviously ignorant of history. I won’t call you naive. Just ignorant.
I don’t care about any of that!!
Oh my, lol…
I am very very sorry and sympathy for the victims and their family in Manchester attack…and not only in Manchester but other places as well…i can’t imagine someone have the heart to do such a terrifying action based just on their hatred and anger…How could some people look at other people and just want to kill them?…and not to love them?I don’t understand….
Even though i’m very very mad and angry for what they did because it will give a false perception to other’s about Islam…Islam is all about peacefulness and have a great bonding between religions no matter who they are…and what they did is certainly wrong…Prophet Muhammad already stated that “If anyone[Muslims]who hurt/kill an innocent non muslim,then i will be their enemy when the Doomsday come”…And clearly this attacker’s did not think about Prophet Muhammad’s words when they did this…
But,then again..i understand their anger and frustrations that certainly were born from seeing their Arab region get destroyed one by one by US and Israel since forever…Palestine,Iraq,Lubnan,Afghanistan and the list keep on growing…in one way i want to blame both Bush[Senior and junior] for starting this fiasco because IMO,this continuos attacking and killing is born from the first moment iraq was bombed in 1990…and it just chained reaction from that moment…if only both Bush at that time not thinking with their kneecap and with $$$ in their mind…this horror would not happen today…
But,the attacker’s also to be blamed for allowing themselves to get blinded by their anger and hatred..it’s certainly solves nothing…only destruction and pain to those who involved…and sadly,we’re going to witness much more of this in the future i believe….and that is the tragedy to the human kind..*Big,big heavy and very sad sigh*
I agree with everything you’ve said MA. Scary and sad times with a very uncertain future (like no time in the past IMO) on so many levels.
Yeah hawks…It was like we’re sitting on a time bomb…always watching and alert which part of the world is going to blow next..and how many innocent people will get killed this time….and it will happen hawks…i can feel it…
Very well said, MA.@ 7:04. Thank-you
Thanks to u too rc for the amazing human being that u r!I love u!!
Thanks MA. I haven’t told you how much I appreciate reading you here lately. You are a breath of fresh air! And I love checking your picks every week on TDC. 🙂
I do what I can – on my days off I email and call congressmen and senators – have to keep at it. It’s the most important work that I can do right now as a human.
Oh really rc??woohohohoho!!…it’s good to hear from u rc!..Miss u like crazy!!
Speaking of TDC….Urgh!!…i’m bad!!hahaha….but u,always awesome rc!!…It’s not fair!..how come you’re the only one who get the chance to kick my @ss??Hahaha…i bet,this week as well!!Hehehe..
Btw..i admire u very very much rc!…Your strength and determination to make it right..even tho’ it seems the mountains hardly but u keep pushing and trying…hope u will succeed in the end rc!!
Listen rc!!..U hear that??..I LOVE U MORE!!..always take care of yourself k?
“Hardly move i should say”…
This song makes me sad, but i think it has an important message https://youtu.be/ql1EnjVYrZM
Alison,
I don’t remember hearing that song before, thanks.
Hey, don’t you have a holiday coming up? Summer Solstice celebration? I can’t wait until the days start getting shorter – seriously – I’ll be celebrating that.
Do you remember this song? There are many versions but I like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7ITHanhV6A
This all began because Joe Smith took me to task for calling the Manchester bombing a cowardly act on the part of the perpetrator implying he was brave because he was prepared to die in the process.
He and his Libyan born family originally fled from Libya to escape the Gaddafi regime and took refuge in Manchester where he attended school and university. It is hard to comprehend how he could choose to cause such havoc in the city in which he had been brought up and quite possibly cause the death of people he knew.
see link for more information: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/everything-know-salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber/
I love this daily podcast from NY Times. 15-20 minute listen on my way to work in the morning.
The whole podcast is worth a listen from yesterday (everyday for that matter) but interesting take at the 6:45 mark…
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/podcasts/the-daily/manchester-isis.html
ed,
I supported your sentiments and still do. This is the problem with Trump’s attempt to ban Muslims freedom entering our country. What about home grown terrorists? That’s what happened with the attack in San Bernarino.
It has almost unfathomable that this person could have perpetrated this act in his own country.
I support ed too. I have no sympathy for terrorists and can never equate terrorism with war or justify terrorism by claiming it is the result of wars waged by the west. The poor sods who blow themselves up are not courageous, just idiots who are used as drones by cynical exploiters who are at least as venal as those they claim to protest against. But I guess people like Joe and rc want to project themselves as better human beings.
We are not better, just different.
I will not ever see war as “normal”. Terrorist attacks are not normal. Trump’s budget is not normal…it is as usual, mostly to fund more war make money -billions trading and dealing in weapons.
Most humans on the planet are nothing compared to waging war, acessing fossil fuel, using every inch of real estate on the planet for exploitation,greed, power, and it’s not to proteCT freedom for the people, it’s not power to the people, it’s about keeping the Rich, Rich and endowment of a few with autocratic power.
War is not noble in this day and age.
The people who go on protesting about all the bad things without bothering to understand why they happen and what is the sustainable alternative are just disruptive.
Ed, no one can answer why this happened but very respectfully, the following element exposed in this interview might have something to do with it….
https://twitter.com/viceland/status/835565032310099970?lang=en
#JustifyingNothing
Margaret Court to be the next President of Australia (channeling her inner Trump)…
MARGARET COURT TO STOP USING QANTAS OVER SAME-SEX MARRIAGE EDICT
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2017/05/ex-tennis-great-avoids-qantas-over-same-sex-marriage-edict/66255/
(Seriously, what does it take for Australian Open to change the name of Margaret Court Arena.)
Stupid woman ….
I just have to get this off my chest. This is going to be a rant, but there are some things that need to be addressed.
First, no country is perfect or ideal or always does the right thing. We were wrong to invade Iraq. It was an illegal war, fought under a fake pretense, i.e. the presence of WMD’s and blaming Iraq for 9/11. It is a stain on the U.S. when you remove a dictator who may have done evil things, it creates a vacuum. In that vacuum, Al Qaeda and Isis took control. It’s a mess that we created.
However, to use a misguided war as justification for the barbarism of these terrorist groups, is to go down a slippery slope. These groups behave like they did in the Middle Ages, cutting off people’s heads and making the lives of those who live under their control a living breathing nightmare.
These groups hate Western civilization. They hate civilization period. They are primitI’ve, barbaric and without any moral compass. Before we condemn the U.S., we should remember that. We have a Constitution, a republic with guaranteed freedoms that most countries can only dream about. Many take these freedoms for granted. We can work to make our country better. We can protest peacefully and vote in elections and speak our mind. Do the people living under the rule of Al Qaeda and Isis have those rights? Are they free?
The U.S. may be flawed and may have made mistakes, but where else would those of you who criticize this country want to live? You have the capacity to enact change. But all I am reading is blanket denunciations of this country. Generalizations about Obama, Clinton and our policies. Everyone is corrupt, everywhere is tainted. What country do you like? What western democracies are without flaws or mistakes in their history?
If you think for one minute that Al Qaeda and Isis are actually doing these terrorist acts in protest of what the U.S. has done, then you are giving them far more credit than they deserve. They came into existence to create violence, chaos, anarchy, fear and repression. That is their agenda and they need no justification for it.
You trash this country, yet provide no solutions or remedies. Just attack and condemn in self-righteous terms. Anyone can do that. But you don’t give constructive solutions.
We are a capitalist country. That is the foundation of our financial and economic system. We need regulations to ensure that greed does not get out of control. We are not a socialist country and never will be. We have adopted some socialist programs. But we need to make our system the best it can be with laws regulating it so that the middle class and poor do not get shafted. We need to elect people with decency and integrity to help make this country a better place to live.
Now we are facing a real threat with a fascist president who presents a serious threat. The time for active participation is now. But justifying the actions of rogue terrorist groups by gratuitously trashing this country accomplishes nothing.
Congratulations NNY on the eloquent and very articulate ‘rant’.
” We have a Constitution, a republic with guaranteed freedoms that most countries can only dream about. ”
HAD a Constitution. On paper only.
Not worth the paper it’s written on if The People don’t uphold it. Here is what the most active people (enough to keep GOP in control of the USA) believe today…
http://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/c_crop,d_placeholder_euli9k,h_1439,w_2560,x_0,y_0/c_limit,w_1480/fl_lossy,q_auto/v1492107334/articles/2016/11/08/the-man-behind-journalist-rope-tree/161108-brandy-journalist-shirt-tease_e24aqd
They are primitive, barbaric and without any moral compass.
And saying people are “justifying the actions of rogue terrorist groups” here is just another straw man argument.
We are on the same page on this one, Hawks 😉 thanks for your words. The Constitution is under attack. And we fight to keep our freedoms.
The good news is that Trump’s anti-Muslim travel ban has again been struck down.
Next, the Senate needs to stop the millionaire Trumpanomic budget plan from passing.
Then we need a thorough independent investigation into Russian interfering with the election and Russian collusion with the Trump campaign. If Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice, which I believe he is…
Impeach him!
#notmypresident
NNY: It is important to distinguish how the US treats its own citizens vs how it treats citizens of other countries. The US treats its own citizens comparatively well, it is true, much better than many other countries, though certainly not all. The US Constitution embodies ideals that I only wish the US government would live up to.
However, how the US treats citizens of other countries is a very different matter. As I said elsewhere (on the Kyrgios wears Trump t-shirt comments page), since the end of WWII the US is responsible for the deaths of far more innocent civilians of other countries than is any other country. It’s not even close (though please note, Stalin and Mao’s larger atrocities are not being compared, being committed mostly against their own citizens). In Vietnam (1960-75) and in Iraq (1991-present) alone, the US is responsible for the deaths of some 5-6 million innocent people. Think about that. Like me, you’re an American whose life extends back to that time. That is blood on our hands. And no great Constitution, no high-minded domestic ideals, no capitalist ethos, gives any of us the right to take the lives of innocent people who aren’t so lucky to be born Americans.
The US is an empire, the greatest empire the world has ever known. It has over 1000 military bases worldwide and it exercises vast control through its financial, trade, and military policy, over the lives of billions of people who have no say in how it acts. It is up to us Americans to hold the US government to account, both domestically and in its foreign policy. We should not acquiesce in its crimes, and we should do what we can to make it better. That is more difficult now than ever, to put it mildly.
Finally, what do I want? First and foremost, I would like the US to start respecting the rule of law, where that means the US Constitution, the UN Charter, the Geneva Conventions, and other relevant laws governing war. That would be a great step.
Joe,
I think you should seek out your own Utopia. We cannot change the past. I get why you dismiss WWII do conveniently, since that was Hitler and the Nazis trying to sxrenubareca race of people! Talk about blood on their hands! That is what a totalitarian government looks like. No Constitution, no Bill of Rights, no free press, no freedom of speech,
I love the way you casually dismiss Stalin and Mao! I don’t know whether to laugh or cry! All the better to stigmatize the U.S. Stalin was planning to go after the Jews in his country, but fortunately he died before he could do it! I but just skip right over them because they only killed their own people!
I really am baffled by your ability to block out facts that you do not wish to see. Do you think we did a good thing in defeating Hitler? Or is that no big deal that you? Liberating the concentration camps. Who cares! Then you would have seen what my father saw. I can tell you after having to take pictures and document the atrocities, my father would have had a hard time comparing that to anything, let alone what the U.S. has done. But I guess you had to be there!
Our Constitution is alive and well! Look at the federal circuit court that struck down Trump’s Muslim travel ban. Maybe you should read their decision so that you can realize what it means to have an independent judiciary!
We have freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and a free press. We have the right to vote, but unfortunately too many of our citizens prefer to vote for third party candidates or just sit it out.
If you want change, then you have to get up off your ass and do something about it! Not just whine and complain and list the bad things this country has done.
Go find your Utopia. Good luck with that!
I meant to say that Hitler was trying to exterminate a race if people! Auto correct garbled it!
NNY and Mary: Both of you seem to have missed my point about distinguishing how the US treats its own citizens from how it treats others. Can you both appreciate that it’s possible to treat both well? That’s what I (and many others) want. We don’t hate the US; we want to make it better. Don’t you?
I did not minimize WWII, Hitler’s crimes, or any of that, but and still don’t see how it’s relevant to today. I made some claims about what has happened since that time, because I want to emphasize that it’s hypocrisy to criticize others’ crimes (e.g. the Manchester bomber) but whitewash our own. You two seem to have a hard time understanding that basic principle.
Here’s today’s story confirming a recent atrocity perpetrated by the US, which it (predictably) blames on ISIS. Again, these sorts of incidents have been happening since 2003 (the 2004 assault on Mosul was horrific) -long before ISIS came into being.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/mosul-us-air-strike-civilian-deaths-pentagon-latest-toll-a7755866.html
Ohh, US should never have entered ww2 but let more Pearl Harbors happen because rc says wars are bad and rc is very wise and knows everything.
Au contraire, madam high horse, Mary — I am but an ignorant, uneducated peasant hahaha
Lol rc!!..hehehe..
So if you are an uneducated peasant who knows nothing, you should behave like one instead of pretending to be a know all and making a fool of yourself.
This may seem strange but I don’t feel like changing anything for you.
I never said I wanted you to change anything for me. But it does seem strange that you prefer to make a fool of yourself by pretending to be a know all.
You do like telling me I’m know all and a fool. 😀
I’m sure you can think of more insults too. You are very brilliant at it.
Thank you! Don’t forget, you started it.
Oh sure. I started it. Whatever you say.
nny, my thoughts exactly but you expressed them much better than I could. I really feel upset with these hypocrites who are constantly finding fault with the US yet there is nowhere else in the world where they could enjoy the privileges they have and that they take for granted. It is so easy to find fault but I have faith in the concept of democracy on which this country is based. It is not perfect in practice, far from it, but the country has made progress in the last 200 years toward that ideal and will continue to do so. It is up to us to take constructive steps, not just be disruptive by condemning everyone and everything in the system as evil. It is so easy to find fault. Not so easy to find solutions.
Mary,
I am surprised to read your thoughts. Unfortunately, you and I usually do not share on anything. However, I did read what you wrote previously and it did resonate with me.
I just felt like I was going to burst if I didn’t say what I felt. I had not planned to get into th S discussion again. But I had to set wake ftp my heart.
It’s a copout to say that there is no difference between the Democrats and the Republicans! Then one can say they are all no good and what Is the sense of working for change abd participating in the political process. Then people have an excuse not to vote. It’s also not true. There is a difference.
If Hillary was elected, we would not have had a Muslim travel ban. There would be no Gorsuch on the Supreme Court. We would not have the repeal of Obamacare. We would not be even talking about building some stupid wall on the border with Mexico. We would not have a potential tax break for the richest two percent in the country, we would not have a president who was threatening to lock up journalists. I could go on an on, but things would have been very different if Hillary was elected.
People need to take responsibility and get involved in the political process. I am sick and tired of those who talk about what is wrong with this country, while not lifting a finger to work for change. Get busy on the grassroots level in the states to get people elected who share your views. Do something!
How about getting out and voting in the 2018 midterm elections to get control of the House back in Democratic hands?
I just feel very strongly about it.
Too many auto correct mistakes in my last post. I did mean to say that you and I don’t usually agree on anything.
Thank you nny for voicing your thoughts. Although we think differently on many other things and have clashed several times, it looks like we share the same political views.
Yes, I criticize policies and practices that I believe are unconstitutional, protest injustices almost every weekend, Call, leave voicemails and send emails to state senators, even if the are all Republican, and it’s likely an act of futility. I do what I can and give what I can. Also I pay my taxes and I have a right to protest the trillion dollar defense spending. Also protest the arms sale to Saudi Arabia.
I do not take this country for granted….sheesh! Just the opposite. If I see the Constitution at risk from a potential dictator surrounded by racists (Jeff Sessions, Steve Bannon) and con men – I have to make noise 😀
Good for you, Ratcliff! I have done that too; even when it feels like you’re spinning your wheels, it’s important.
Long ago I was a staffer on the campaign that elected the late Paul Wellstone to the US Senate. He had been a teacher of mine and no one gave him a chance, but he won and represented Minnesota for two terms. He did a lot of good there, even though I used to argue with him about US support for Israel and other issues.
We all should do what we can.
Very good, Joe 🙂
I remember Paul Wellstone. And I was proud to campaign for Ron Wyden back in the day, when I lived in Portland. Also worked going door to door in N.E Portland to get people out to vote.
Ah, door knocking. Even though I sometimes encountered people (and dogs) I would have rather avoided, I always found it easier than calling people over the phone.
rc,
You may disagree with me if you wish, but she made my argument. No need to get do defensive. Even at my stage in life, I got involved in Hillary’s campaign. But I was involved at a young age in politics and have some strong opinions about it.
For the record, I do not support wars for profit! You don’t have a monopoly on the moral high ground here. I spoke about the Iraq war and how I felt about it and the devastation wrought by it. Do I don’t need lectures from anyone because I lived through the Vietnam war in college and protested in demonstrations in college. I remember Kent State, too.
I did not direct my comments at you, so chill out! I have heard you speak about your activism. So good for you!
I have had enough of the criticism about what this country has done in the past. We can oml change things going forward. I have worked in politics for a good particularly of my adult life. So I have not relied on talk, but have backed it up with action.
That’s where I am coming from.
I made my argument! Sorry, but too many autocorrect typos in my last post. But I think my message is clear.
Nny,
I have no clue why you come after me now. None of my comments were directed at you.
Did I ever say I had the monopoly on th moral high ground?
Really, I’ve always thought the high ground was for Mary, naturally.
Oh guys!!{Nny& rc]..I love u both dearly!..but u guys sounds a little strange now..please stay calm!Take a deep breath…remember,this is just politics we’re talking about…that’s okay if we have a different view with each other okay?
Don’t worry MA.
NNY and I are actually on the same side or thereabouts politically and we definitely agree that Novak isn’t back – we need to see more.♡
Okay rc!!
And I have not been critical of Ww2. I’m sure I would have wanted to join the army for that one.
But NOT Vietnam and not perpetual war for profit and greed, not my tax money to feed this out of control military industrial monster
Very well said. The WW2 accusation was a cheap strawman attack.
I have really had my fill of your cheap and petty attacks on me. You cannot make an argument, so you reach for the convenient straw man nonsense. You are a broken record. But you say nothing that is in any way meaningful. Just self-righteous piety.
I am now done with this discussion for good. I stand by what I said.
As far as the truly despicable and vile comment about bringing WWII into this discussion, I truly have the utmost contempt and utter lack of respect for anyone who would trash the mention of WWII. I am immensely proud of my father’s sacrifice and what it took out of him, as well as all the other brave American soldiers who courageously fought to defeat Hitler and the Nazis, the ultimate evil. Memorial Day is this weekend and I salute those who died and those where fought and lived to come home. True heroes.
You said Joe dismissed WWII.
That was not what he said.
That’s a straw man argument. Which is a cheap and petty attack on Joe’s argument. You could not make an argument, so you reach for the convenient straw man nonsense.
(The rest of your reply was personally insulting.)
I have no problem with hawkeye saying bad things about US because he lives in Canada. Obviously he resents the power of the US. Not nice to be next to a powerful neighbor who could swat you like a fly.
The current US government is too busy swatting it’s 99% of its own citizens like a fly to worry too much about Canada.
No, I don’t resent its power – just when it is abused.
My grandfather fought along side with the US in WWI and my cousin fought along side with the US in Afghanistan. They fought for what they believed in representing Canada and I am proud of them for that. My cousin was killed by an IED fighting the Taliban. My aunt married a US soldier stationed in Canada during WWII (he truly was a great man who I was privileged to know) and I have American relatives in the US who I love very much (they feel the same way about where the US is headed as I do).
I love the US and the democracy it once represented. I travel there often for business and pleasure. But that doesn’t mean I blindly support everything that they do today and throughout history.
The US is Canada’s greatest trading partner by far. Although Trump is threatening to destroy NAFTA.
So you really don’t know sweet fuck all about me Mary.
Oh I don’t know anything about you. But a powerful country is usually hated by other countries because it makes them feel like vassal states.
Good on you both.
No one has a monopoly on active protest nor should they assume they are the only ones that care to take action.
(Nor should they put words in others’ mouths.)
#solidarity
#powertothepeople
😀
Worth the click…
https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/status/867698617234198528
#Hillarious
oo much bickering over a very serious matter. The subject has been thrashed to death. Time to move on, no?
excuse double post. Dont know how that happened.
fixed