Roger Federer beat Rafael Nadal for the first time in their last six meetings and in doing so defended his Swiss Indoors Basel title. Federer prevailed 6-3, 5-7, 6-3 after two hours and two minutes for his seventh Basel triumph.
With a 10-23 lifetime record against his nemesis and playing at home in Switzerland for the first time in the rivalry’s illustrious history, Federer needed a win in the worst way. He came out playing like it, breaking in the fifth game and at love in the ninth game to seize set one in style. The 34-year-old consolidated his initial break with some especially impressive stuff on a break point at 3-2.
Federer saves break point with an amazing forehand pass:
[tweet https://twitter.com/TennisTV/status/660822054137176064]
Nadal finally earned a break of his own at 5-5 in the second. It proved to be enough for the third-seeded Spaniard to force a decider, as he promptly delivered a love hold one game later.
Much to the delight of the pro-Federer crowd, the 17-time Grand Slam champion regained control in set three. Despite missing a break chance at 2-1, he struck decisively at 4-3. Nadal set a backhand well long on break point before Federer survived a deuce game at 5-3 to clinch victory.
The top seed used his SABR tactic three times, succeeding only once.
Federer’s first SABR attempt ends badly:
Highlights:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvwGL-XUwA]
“My fourth time here, finally I get to the finals–so I’m very happy for that,” Nadal said during the trophy ceremony. “Very emotional week; all the matches…a lot of fight. I believe that it’s been a very important week for me, for this year and for the future.”
Both players will now head to the Paris Masters for the last tournament of the proverbial regular season (before the eight-man World Tour Finals). Federer awaits either Andreas Seppi or Pablo Cuevas, while Nadal could open against Lukas Rosol.
[polldaddy poll=9156114]
natashao2013 says:
November 3, 2015 at 10:08 am
the 2008 Rafa was my personal favorite…
***************************************************
So who is your personal favourite now? Do you think a less than 100% Novak can beat Rafa today?
I already responded to your question…make some effort and read it…
and of all Rafa versions ( as the discussion was Rafa of 2008 vs Rafa of today) the 2008 was my personal favorite version…you should read the posts in order to establish any type of discussion…but then again why would you…it won’t affect your rather offensive position…I wonder what your problem is…
🙂
As long as we’ve established that a less than 100% Novak or Rafa cannot be expected to beat each other.
But they can be expected to beat each other so nothing is established.
A 95% Nole would beat a 90% Rafa in Australia.
A 95% Rafa would beat a 90% Nole in French Open.
A 95% Nole would beat a 90% Rafa indoors.
Doesn’t really matter. Overall Rafa plain and simply stands best chance of beating Novak at the French.
Benny,
Thank you! Keeping it simple! Well said! 🙂
what about a 93.876% Rafa vs 93.877% Nole in French Open? 🙂 🙂
That’s a trick question. We saw this exact case in the 2013 French Open semi final that Rafa won in five, 9-7 in the decider.
So yes Rafa would win in that case 19 times out of 20.
RG h2h – Rafa/Nole 6:1!
@ hawkeye63,
and one more: how about Rafa with confidence issues vs Nole suffering from the urge to vomit… 🙂
Nole spat and it was shown in slow motion. He didn’t vomit.
That has nothing to do with it.
Rafa with confidence issues beats himself. Novak wins. Unless he actually vomits. Urge is not enough to stop Rafa from beating himself.
I hope you do not think “urge to vomit” and “vomiting” are the same thing?
when I train hard I sometimes feel sick as I will vomit any minute but I never did…so that is what I was talking about…
and BTW, the question was a joke addressed at my dear “accomplice in crime”…hope you do not get another firing squad ready to shoot me for it… 🙂
Yes for sure, a sense of humour is sorely lacking around here sometimes, no?
I know the difference. As I said, an urge would not be enough for him to lose to a self-defeating Rafa.
I post a clip and the local specialist on this site can analyze what it is:
https://vine.co/v/MDQZYi0hz0w
Oh please! It’s disgusting to see this! Just to prove a point?
OMG, this is just awful to watch…yuck…
nativenewyorker7 ( at 6:24 pm),
This is the discussion topic here! I just wanted to help those who are discussing.
😆
Rafa won RG 9 times in 10 consecutive years. He must have been at 80% in some of them. So this proves a 80% Rafa can beat the field which includes Djoko who must have been 100% sometime. So 80% Rafa beats 100% Djoko at RG.
The close matches on HC prove Djoko needs to be at 100% on any surface to beat Rafa but Rafa can afford 80% at RG to beat everyone including Djoko.
so what do you think was Rafa”s level at RG 2015? Less than 80%? and how about Nole’s? 100%?
Obviously Rafa was below 80% this year. Maybe 50%.. Nole has been at 100% this year but his 100% may not be good enough on clay against even other players when they are playing inspired tennis like Stan. That’s the big difference on clay between Rafa and Djoko on clay. That is why Rafa has 9 RG. However if Rafa continues slumping then as Djoko is the most consistent among the other players, chances are Djoko will win RG next year.
No. False logic.
Rafa was never 80% vs Nole at RG in any of the matches he won against him.
Subjective, false logic which proves nothing.
Nole was 90% at RG vs Stan. He failed to execute the right strategy according to Boris. The only time Nole was 100% against Rafa at RG was 2013 SF which Rafa won. Rafa was 110%.
hawkeye
How do you know? My figures are reasonable estimates but yours are probably arrived at by counting the hairs on Rafa’s head. No one can be 110% That is bogus logic.
Figure of speech. As I said to nats, sense of humour is in short supply. Everything is taken too literally.
augusta,
Really? Come one! That’s not helping. What’s the big deal over this? That picture is enough to make any of us want to spit up or vomit ourselves.
BTW, nats agrees!
nativenewyorker7 (at 6:36),
natasha & hawkeye63 have discussed a lot about this…
Scroll up at least until the comment posted on November 3, 2015 at 3:41 pm.
We did see that Novak’s level was not good enough to beat an inspired Stan. I think that was the best match Stan played this year. That’s what it took for him to beat Novak. So maybe one should say that Stan has to be at his best or 100% to beat Novak.
I also agree that Rafa’s level at RG this year was about 50 -60%. But we are ignoring the real problem. It was between the ears. That is what did Rafa in this year. With all this business about comparing percentages of levels of the too players, we are forgetting the one intangible quality Rafa has that can turn a match on its head. How many times has Rafa won matches, either in slams or Masters or whatever, where he was not at his best? It’s Rafa’s fierce will to win, the refusal to lose, that has made the difference so many times.
I think that’s what made the difference in the 2013 RG semifinal with Novak. Rafa was serving for the match in that fourth set but Novak broke back and ultimately won it in a TB to force a fifth set. Novak was up a break in the fifth set. But I will never forget how Rafa was stomping around and pumping his fist and nodding his head. He just was not going to lose that match! That was the quality that got him through. He came up with some of the best pure tennis I have seen from him in that fifth set. Novak was also playing some brilliant tennis. They went toe-to-toe. But Novak made a critical mistake in running into the net and Rafa got that point. Rafa was stronger mentally. That was the difference.
@ Mary,
I agree Rafa was at or a bit bellow 60% this year…I also think Novak has issues with RG obviously since he has never been able to win it and he seems to gets doubtful of his own game at the FO… yet Rafa has to be mentally strong as he used to be (no mental lapses allowed) if he wants to beat him next year…
Nole has a lot of points to defend next year…he has to get tired at some point…if not, and he somehow manages to sustain his current level, than as you said he really has high chances at beating Rafa…
I read a lot of your comments and with most of it I agreed…I like your tennis logic…so you may as well be right…but allow me to be doubtful of it that Rafa is ever gonna reach his glory days level …his game deteriorated and his speed reduced and he is not getting any younger… and Novak’s level improved…however, I think Novak is reached his peak…he may as well begin to slow down next year…
what I wish to see is Rafa being at the top of his level in 2016 (whatever it might be comparing to his level of 2008-2009 glory days) and that will I believe be his 100% under the circumstances…having said this I also believe that Novak has real problem with RG…his mental strength is always under serious test when it comes to RG…I would prefer Rafa to be 100% no matter what… 🙂
@ hawkeye 5:47,
right answer! My deep bow to the actual King of tenngrand! 🙂
It’s all confidence problems starting with the back. Nothing to do with age.He’s one year older than Nole and five years younger than Fed.
Rafa had one of the best years in tennis in 2013 and would have won the AO in 2014 which would have had him holding three slams at the same time.
Are we to believe it is age that dramatically and immediately affected his sudden drop in performance for the rest of the year??? He was still just 28!!!!
No, this is completely mental. Not age related at all.
it’s not age in its true sense…it’s injuries combined with age…every time he gets injured it gets harder to come back…Rafa is certainly slower than before, his shots lose strength and he sometimes hits ridiculously short…but I agree that his confidence problems are the main cause of his slump this year…
I disagree. Some of it is age. It happens to all players. One simply cannot ignore or deny it. I agree with nats in that regard. Rafa is older in tennis years than either Novak or Murray. Novak turned pro in 2003, I believe. That’s two years after Rafa. Murray didn’t turn pro unti. 2005. So Rafa has the most miles on his body. In that sense, he is more that one year older than Novak in tennis years.
Nothing happens dramatically. But it has been obvious that Rafa has lost a step or two over the years. He doesn’t have the speed and quickness that he had in 2008 or 2010.
The confidence issue this year is mental. But I have been saying for a while now that I believed there is more than one thing going on with Rafa. The mental aspect has been the biggest concern, but along with that are signs of aging. Rafa will need to find ways to compensate for that. Fed’s had to do it. One way is to try to shorten the points by playing aggressively. Easier said than done at times, but if Rafa can win more efficiently then his body will be the better for it.
I disagree. His decline was immediate from great in 2013 to AO 14 final to no confidence since other than FO 14.
Age decline is gradual, not sudden like that. He got past his physical injuries but never recovered mentally. He no longer trusted his body after the back, wrist and appendix.
Ive a strange feeling that Novak’s worst surface is clay, now that all aspects of his game have improved so much that winning on grass is no longer a problem for him. He seemed to struggle more on clay than on grass these days, eg. hes struggling to beat Berdych in three sets on clay at Monte Carlo. Berdych on clay?? He needed to go five sets vs Murray on clay?
Rafa and Stan beat Novak at the FO by being aggressive. However, being aggressive on grass may not be enough to beat Novak as he somehow could overcome any form of aggression – ftom Delpo, Cilic, Anderson, Fed.
Novak’s chances of winning the FO diminishes year after year as he’s not getting any younger and I dont see him improving any further on clay. Rafa OTOH has his game tailored to win on clay and if his movement and confidence are back next year, he’ll have a good chance of winning the FO again. Stan may be a stunbling block to Novak at the FO, but his SHBH will be his weakness when playing Rafa on clay.
Those are anecdotal examples. You could say the same for Rafa at almost any clay tournament over the last five years where you could find the odd match here or there where he lost a set.
I think he struggles equally if not more so on fast hard courts where he has less titles than on clay.
OK on review, I’d say equal between the two.
He has seven Masters 1000 titles on clay (MC, Madrid, Rome) and seven Masters/WTF titles on fast hard courts (Cinci, Paris and WTF).
12 finals on those fast hard courts and 11 on clay Masters 1000.
In reality neither is much of a weakness.
Especially when you consider that he’s been the betting favourite to win the French Open for the last two years and currently for 2016.
yeah….rafa was miles apart from the field on clay but that does not mean he did not struggle to win some matches.
1 Rafa vs Davydenko in rome 2007 SF very very very tough battle. Rafa 7-6(3) 6-7(8) 6-4
2.Rafa vs hewitt SF in hamburg 2007 semi was also quite tough! Rafa won 2-6 6-3 7-5
3. Rafa vs Nieminen 2006 Barcelona! rafa was down a set and a break in the second before prevailing 3-6 6-4 6-3
So these are three examples . A player struggling against a player he was supposed to handle without much trouble CAN happen for even the best of the best. Nothing rare.
Besides, these arguments of 100% of that player beating 90% of that player and 80% of that player etc etc are fallacious because you are conveniently ignoring a very important aspect: Match up dynamics!
To say that because novak has never destroyed the field consistently enough on clay, he cannot challenge the rafa of old on clay makes no sense! Novak is NOWHERE near as good on clay as vintage rafa was BUT, he is a nightmare matchup for rafa. If Paul Henri Mathieu can make rafa play the toughest match of RG 2006, why the hell can’t novak who is the worst matchup ever for rafa?! I firmly believe the rafa of 2008 will face lots of problem against the current novak. He had a weak serve and his forehand was not as good.
Remember novak easily beat rafa in 2011 on clay? and rafa still won RG? Match up issues baby! PLus, ONE of the key reasons rafa lost to novak on clay even was that his serving to novak’s backhand was getting him into loads of trouble. FInally, he developed new serving patterns and unleashed them (basically serving relentlessly to novak’s forehand) in Monte Carlo 2012 final. It was THAT point onwards that rafa evolved his serve, evolved his forehand because of Novak. You guy say an 80% rafa of 2014 beat novak bla bla… Wait, did you guys see HOW DAMN WELL , HOW DAMN HARD rafa hit his forehand DTL in that match? Novak mentioned rafa’s forehand DTL specifically in the presser!! Have never seen one champion talking about one particular shot of their opponent! it was THAT massive in that match. Without that shot, rafa would have surel lost the match , just like he was doing in 2011! Uncle Toni also said at the end of 2011 that they want to hit more winners and then came adding more weight to the tip of the racket to increase power on the forehand.
SO, players evolve based on how they fare against thei rivals. Federer improved his backhand BIG TIME , rafa evolved his forehand for novak and Novak evolved his forehand because of roger and rafa!
SORRY about the long post! But I hope it will help put things into perspective
It’s a great well balanced post on many levels.
It also explains why there is always a new GOAT and the game gets better for me in my opinion..
Rafa, Fed and Nole play better because training, nutrition, raquet/string technology and strategies evolve exponentially.
Hawkeye,
We will have to agree to disagree because there is no way that Rafa at the age of 29 is not showing some signs of aging. People were saying this about Fed when he was heading toward 30. It doesn’t just happen to certain players. All players have to get older. Skills deteriorate. I said specifically that Rafa does not have the speed or movement on the court that he did about four or five years ago.
To deny this and chalk it all up to just being mental, is to be in denial.
Hawkeye, what are you talking about??
Novak has won many titles on fast hard courts – Shanghai, Beijing and Dubai. Paris and WTF are no longer fast HCs. The only fast HC that Novak doesnt win is Cincy but he made 4 finals.
Check Novak’s stats on clay, see how often he needs to go the distance on clay, esp at the FO.
Paris is a fast hard court…. speed reduced a little but still a fast hard court….the pace rating is similar to that of shanghai. WTF is slower, yes.
Its not fast, players were complaining that they slowed it down to be the same as O2 arena. Its slower than Basel.
correct
Paris isn’t fast
Basel was slower than usual and I haven’t seen Paris this year but it is historically faster than most Masters from 2011-2013 according to the median virtually the same as Cincy and London WTF is third. Basel was a little slower.
No point looking at smaller tournaments because of weaker draws and hence more difficult to compare.
The courts in Basel, at the Paris Masters and at the WTF in London have been identical since at least 2013:
http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Tennis—Javier-Sanchez-says-courts-in-London-same-as-Paris-and-Basel-articolo14604.html
The Paris Masters website: ¤¤ The BNP Paribas Masters is played on GreenSet – resin on wood – which is absolutely identical to the surface at the ATP World Tour Finals in London which will be held from 15 – 22 November 2015. ¤¤
No this is an opinion in which he even contradicts himself:
” The only difference between [London] and Paris is that Paris is built on wood underneath, because normally it’s an ice hockey arena so they have to fill the hole to make it level with the concrete, and here it is just on concrete. In Basel it’s just on concrete.”
“But maybe humidity [in the O2] affects the ball. If the ball is bigger it will affect the speed, but I don’t know if that’s happening. But normally it’s not that different. But for the players, a little can be a lot.”
These can all change the playing conditions. And even then, if the same, it just confirms that they are still relatively fast, low bounce courts (compared to other Masters hard courts) as they were from 2011-2013.
Not to mention the ball itself!!!
They are the fastest hard courts on tour as of 2013.
That’s why I mentioned finals in addition to titles to remove the fed factor in cincy and the Rafactor on clay. Please read more carefully.
You missed my point.
I repeat. Even if clay is his weakest surface, it is a very minor weakness given that he’s the favourite to win the last two years and 2016. As a matter of fact, he’s almost the odds on favourite to win next year. If it wasn’t for the best clay player ever, he would have multiple FO titles.
Fastest Masters 1000 hardcourts.
So? Minor or not its still a weakness. Novak was favorite everywhere, whichever slam, still he didnt win all of them, did he?
That’s not very clearly stated so I cannot comment as I’m not clear on what you are saying specifically.
Regardless, again, if so, it is a very minor almost negligible weakness.
In my opinion, relative to other surfaces, he has always struggled more on fast hard courts and clay. He’s closed the gap more on clay than on fast hard courts which probably makes sense because of his obsessive desire to win the French.
If Rafa can’t win, I’d like to see him do it. He is very deserving and has worked extremely hard to get it.
If it wasn’t for Rafa, he’d have more than one!
It was very quick when Fed lost a final to Monfils andt hey did slow the court down but as of 2015, the pace ratings are similar to that of Shanghai. The ‘conditions’ could be slower?…. are the balls used the same across all masters?
No, Rafa complains about how the balls are inconsistent frequently.
November 3, 2015 at 7:24 pm,
The Paris Masters website:
¤¤ BALLS
Some 7,000 Head ATP balls will be used in during the BNP Paribas Masters. These are the balls that are used at several ATP Masters 1000 tournaments, the ATP World Tour Finals and at other ATP tournaments and Davis Cup matches.¤¤
Several, not all.
And even then the same brand of ball changes from year to year.
Those that know Rafa know that he has frequently complained about different balls at different tournaments.
November 3, 2015 at 7:24 pm,
In 2010, the courts of the Paris Masters were sped UP, after Fed’s permanent whining about the speed of the courts. But he didn’t win. In 2011, the courts were slowed DOWN, then he won.
Tennis Panorama, Nov. 2011: ¤¤In recent years Bercy [the Paris Masters] has always been the anomaly in the ATP tour, with its super-fast indoor courts often producing surprise champions. But after last year [2010] saw Robin Soderling crowned as champion, the organizers made the deliberate decision to slow DOWN the surface allegedly based on complaints from players that the courts were TOO fast. ¤¤
http://archive01.tennispanorama.com/?p=20595
.
I repeat that at least since 2013, the courts in Basel, at the Paris Masters and at the WTF in London have been identical.
“With a normal ball during day and night there is differences, but with that ball is completely dramatic how the things change. During the day especially the ball is very, like you are touching a stone. There is no feeling. […]
“The other day the ball make big change with the weather conditions. Ball today was softer, bigger. The whole day yesterday was very small and very hard. No control. Today you have more control of the ball.”
“I see a lot of player having a lot of mistakes from a lot … one meter or two meters, and that’s not good for our sport,” he said. “But that’s what we have today. We have that ball. I think ATP and fans deserve a better ball to have a better show.”
“I think the players said what they have to say. Is not new. Something that happens since a while,” he said. “I didn’t understand very well, because the brand that is making that ball they say now is a new ball, but still bad and I don’t understand why. Because if it’s a new brand creating new ball, you can understand that they make not a bad ball. But the same brand five years ago had a great ball, very good ball. Is difficult to understand why today they are not able to do it.”
Frankly, it’s never made any sense that different tournaments use different tennis balls. The Australian Open and U.S. Open use Wilson, the French Open currently goes with Babolat and Wimbledon has been playing Slazinger balls since 1902. In theory, these balls are expected to conform to the same standards, but like with golf balls, there are subtle variations in each.
It all comes down to money, of course, and manufacturers pay a premium to have their balls used at various tournaments, which makes sense. If I’m a 4.5 player looking for a good ball to play with, seeing the ones used by the pros might compel me to make that choice. That’s why all golfers, from scratch to 20 handicap, want Titleist ProV1s. But if a tennis ball manufacturer is going to pay for the privilege and then get complaints the entire tournament, maybe it’s not worth it after all.
Except you repeat a source that contradicts its own statement. Courts are sped up and slowed down and sped up again. not to mention other factors such as the ball used that even Rafa himself has spoken about. Rafa knows a lot more about playing conditions than this guy you are quoting because Rafa plays in those conditions.
I am speaking of court measurement data from 2011-2013.
Not an opinion that even admits there are different variables that contradict his opening claim.
I try to help some here understand Rafa more closely. In Beijing last year Rafa said:
“The ball is so bad here,” Nadal to the AP. “If you throw the ball on the floor, the bounce goes everywhere. Is not a question of winning or losing. I won in Rio (earlier this year) with this ball. I won tournaments with this ball.
“It’s just that we’re competing at the top level of our sport, tennis, and the ball is an important thing.
“This week we are playing with one ball. Next week we are playing with a different ball,” he said. “That’s dangerous for the shoulder, dangerous for the elbow.”
Meanwhile, Belucci up a break against Novak. The brazilian ALWAYS does well against novak
VR, on clay the serve, even the returns, are not so important. You talk about 2006/2007 Rafa on clay but that’s not the vintage Rafa. Vintage Rafa happened in 2008/2010 on clay, even then, hard hitting Almagro and Gulbis did push Rafa to go the distance at Madrid and Rome respectively in 2010.
Its not a matter of losing a set here and there, its how the match was played; Novak had struggled to win matches on clay even during his peak from 2011 onwards. Novak may win at the clay Masters but not at the FO when facing a 2008 Rafa.
I dont know what and how all these % come about, but to elevate Novak to the level as if he’s going to beat or threaten
the king of clay at his peak on clay is getting overboard.
Luckystar, it is true that serve and returns are not THAT important on clay but when you are against the best returner, it is important even on clay and the evidence of that is obviously that Monte Carlo 2012 final where rafa literally threw every serve to Novak’s forehand. Serve was of HUGE importance in that phase of their rivalry.
Besides, I did not say 06-07 was vintage rafa. I used examples from that period because some posters were talking about separating yourself from the field. Rafa was miles apart from the field in 05-07 (his 81 match winning streak) so that is why I gave those examples.
in terms of results and destryoing the field, yes, 2008 was vintage rafa and what he did during RG 2008 was INSANE. But again, 2008 rafa had a forehand inferior to the rafa of 2013/14 and the serve was a lot weaker . Serve is quite important in his matches with novak.
Rafa barely lost games in 2008 RG but he was pushed in one match? remember? no wonder it was a match against Djokovic! Nole was not a much accomplished clay player back then but he did pretty well even then . He was down 3-0 double break in the third set , recovered and even had set point . He lost in the tie break. That’s because even then the potential matchup issues could be seen.
Rafa is BY FAR the greatest on clay. But I am not sure what ‘vintage’ rafa on clay is ? in terms of results and distance from the field in a particular time, yes, 2008 . But in terms of weapons and being a complete player, IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY. and THAT is what rafa also thinks! I am sure you must have noticed a gazillion times rafa answers to reporters/journalists that it is impossible to compare his form with previous years as every time is different. Whenever they ask him to compare his form , he says it is impossible to compare! Because he knows its complicated. He could say my movement was better back then, but my forehand is better now but hey my slice is better now and also my serve but perhaps I had a more solid backhand back then ….. so you see?
Rafa on clay>>> Djokovic on clay. Both in terms of killing the field and also in terms of head to head matches. No doubts. BUT, it is far more complicated than what is being portrayed here.
2013 FO semifinal Rafa would have DESTROYED 2008 FO Rafa.
Thats only your opinion.
2013 FO rafa which we saw in the SF (not the one we saw against Brands, Klizan and Fognini in the earlier rounds) was a much more complete player. Even the 2012 rafa. The only deficiency 2013 FO rafa had in that SF was that his intensity wavered a bit when he played full 5 sets. It was his first slam in a long time (as he had missed AO 2013) so there were some dips in his intensity but when he moved to 5th gear in the last set, when he was down 4-3, WOAHHH. 2008 rafa was a bit quicker on the court I guess and had more energy! He was a freak! And mayyy be, a more solid backhand….
Of course! As is your own.
Same goes for GOAT ICYMI.
Right you are VR.
That 5th set showed me tennis that I never thought possible. Novak would have won against any other player (including some previous vintages of Rafa) in that set.
In my opinion.
@luckystar, you said it yourself, it becomes a matter of opinion! Rafa of 2008 is clearly at disadvantages against Rafa of 2012-14 (the rafa we saw in the semis and finals) . But, the rafa of 2008 also has some advantages over the rafa of 2013 FO.
I agree with you there hawkeye!
I would also like to mention the rafa of 2012 RG! He was too damn good. He had a good serve, beast forehand, solid backhand and fantastic movement and physical strength. So, ‘vintage’ rafa is kind of impossible to determine and rafa implies the same.
Exactly VR.
Federer said during the US Open this year that he played better this year (up to that point anyways) than he did 10 years ago.
If you compare match statistics on TennisAbstract.com, it supports his statement. So does his ranking at No. 2 when you consider the field of competition. 2005 was weak.
More and more players are actually beginning to play their best tennis late 20’s to low thirties thanks to improvements in training, nutrition, technology and technique.
2012 Rafa? You forget one thing, he was already slower and less powerful then compared to the 2008 version. Watching that Rafa, I’d already noticed his drop in speed and power back then albeit just slightly. His BH was also not what it used to be; his shots were landing shorter more often then before.
His overall game might have improved but his speed and power had gone down. We called the 2008 Rafa vintage Rafa because he was quick, powerful and hardly any mishit. I do feel at that time that his ROS was better, his BH too.
luckystar, haha, so the same thing again. How can you base ‘vintage’ rafa verdict on only foot speed and physical stamina? As I have said many times, 2008 rafa DEFINITELY had these advantages but he comes up short against the rafa of 2012 or 2013 when it comes to other aspects I previously talked about. Impossible to determine’ vintage’ rafa in my view and I am glad rafa says the same lol :p
That is your opinion.
I call him vintage when he plays his best tennis.
vin·tage
ˈvin(t)ij/
adjective
1.
of, relating to, or denoting wine of high quality.
the final set of 2013 RG final, rafa showed everything that is possible on clay. He defended like crazy, moved like a jaguar, fit forehand winners like we had never seen him hit before. He was showing everything out there. 2008 Rafa may ‘outlast’ him but who knows, 2013 rafa may end the deal in 4 sets by being more aggressive? LOL..this is getting funny
Getting? Just now? LOLOLOL
HAHAHAHAHAHA
just to add to that, rafa played the 2012 FO final with pain killer injections for his knee! Imagine how he would have fared without any knee issues?! AND, he was on course to straight set-ing novak anyway were it not for that pesky rainfall….with the sun shining next day, he erased a 1-2 deficit and raced to victory 🙂
Regarding what federer said during USO, EXACTLY! Fed is now is a much more complete player and according to him he played better than he ever has. He also said the same in 2014 at some point. His serve is better than ever ,backhand better than ever, net game MUCH better than ever ….forehand has gotten less consistent though but has all the weapons. In fact ,he has added one dimension to it. He now regularly hits open stance forehands when stretched! that’s because he is not quick enough to hit closed stance forehands all the time and ALSO because he wanted to improve his forehand defending as his rivals Novak and Rafa spread the court too damn well. He hit those a lot during basel final .
2005 had a weaker field but the fed of 2005-07 was also something else. He was quicker, physically stronger and most importantly, he had razor sharp instincts which helped his timing . He was younger so instincts were sharper. His game was so much built on timing. The reason his backhand was not exploited until rafa and then novak came along was that his timing in those years was incredible. He could hit backhand half-volleys with ease, he could re-direct pace. The current fed does not have the same instincts and timing so that is a loss…. That is why 2006 fed is perhaps tougher to beat but it would depend on whom he is facing and stuff… His forehand was also more consistent back then, obviously.
You’d never know because in 2006 there was no measurement stick.
Whereas today there is.
I believe fed, the cumulative annual match statistics that are better against a better field, and my own eyes.
yeah…. we would never know, true! you have valid points! but age, loss of instincts and a more erratic forehand are also undeniable facts. So, yeah, we would never know 🙂
All factors good and bad, but the annual cumulative match stats across the board really do speak for themselves.
I will study the statistics you are referring to. What are they about? Sounds like interesting stuff
Come on VR, its not just speed and power but a better BH and ROS, even more clutch serving. Rafa’s BH had deteriorated after 2010.
VR, have fun! Takes some getting used to but the filtering power is really good. Play around to figure it out. You can select multiple filters at the same time.
http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-bin/player.cgi?p=RogerFederer&f=A2003qq
These numbers are easily obtained on tennisabstract.com. Just select the years of interest.
His ace %, 1st serve %, 1st serve points won is higher in the last 52 weeks than it was any year from 2003-07 so this completely supports his statement that his serve is better for example. His other stats in the last 52 weeks all fall within the range of the years from 03-07. None are lower.
I think it is amazing that he has improved or maintained every match statistic shown over this time.
Roger is right.
TOTALS Match Tiebreak Ace% 1stIn 1st% 2nd% RPW DR
[x] Time Span: 2003 78-17 (82%) 28-18 (61%) 10.5% 59.7% 78.5% 59.1% 38.5% 1.31
Last 52 63-10 (86%) 19-11 (63%) 11.3% 63.4% 80.0% 58.0% 40.0% 1.43
The DR ratio in that table is interesting. In 2015, 1.43 means that Fed broke his opponent’s serve 43% more than he was broken himself compared to just 31% when he dominated the weak era in 2005.
Amaaaaazing!!!!!
@hawkeye: Yet another fallacy because Federer did not play the indoor season barring TMC due to an ankle injury in 2005. He practically played TMC on one leg because the organisers requested him to as primadonnas like Nadal had pulled out.
The statistics have a context and the way you’re cherry picking them just goes to further my conviction that you know nothing about tennis.
He is also, in all likelihood playing longer/ tighter matches now than he was in 2005 and that also affects the way the numbers read.
So much has been lost in Fed’s game. His court coverage, anticipation, explosiveness and variety off the FH, confidence in going with a lower net clearance on the groundstrokes, defence on his right hand side ( players used to fear attacking his FH wing at one point), his footwork (longer strides today as opposed to smaller, more calculated steps back then) AND serve speed.
The 2008 Rafa at FO wasnt even being pushed to five sets, and he destroyed Fed there. How do you or we know that even when pushed to five sets, he wont play better than his 2013 SF?
Like I said, Rafa back then hardly mishit anything and was much quicker, for all we know, that Rafa might not even need a five setter vs the 2013 Novak! Also Rafa hardly had any dip in concentration back then, unlike the more recent Rafa.
“How do you or we know that even when pushed to five sets, he wont play better than his 2013 SF?”
This is what I am saying! nobody can possibly know that! not even rafa would have an answer I guess!
Some plus points for 2008 FO rafa and some for the FO 2013 SF rafa or FO 2014 rafa. There is no OVERALL outcome possible for us to determine. and why are we caring so much?! lol…comparing rafa with rafa !
Exactly, it is just Lucky’s opinion.
And a ridiculous debate LOL.
So, when we talk about court speed, it is a bit of a misnomer as we are talking about much more than just the court itself.
To me, a loss of speed and power, as happened to Fed and Rafa, has affected their game. Fed’s game has improved, so does Rafa’s, but thats not enough to compensate for the loss of speed and power due to physical deterioration through aging or injury. If not, both of them would still be playing at the top of their game and dominating at their respective best surfaces.
Also Nole’s ‘Egg’ has played a part in his getting the better of Federer and Nadal.
^this also supports what I said. It was because of fed’s and rafa’s presence that novak started going out of the way to find solutions and he did succeed in many ways.
Cumulative annual match statistics available on TennisAbstract.com contradict that stance.
Fed’s is a problem of stronger competition. This is less true for Rafa. The problem for him is mental. It is plain to see. He is rounding the corner but he is doing it the slow way IMO.
The final in Basel was played at a very high level. Fed played great and yet Rafa played arguably his second best indoor match indoors against him. Fed would have had a good shot of beating Nole indoors with that level.
Anecdotal as that last paragraph is.
you might be right dear, but, are we not ignoring that fact that the competition also evolves? previously, nobody knew fed’s backhand could break down like that but after rafa showed the world how it could be done, I am sure players and coaches and strategists would start figuring out more ways? When you are in the spot light for so long, all the focus is on you and everyone’s training based on you and your strengths and weaknesses isn’t it? Novak knew his physical stamina and strength put him at a major disadv against Rafa so he improved that big time and then escalated his level to new heights!
Rafa looked untouchable on clay till 2011 and then suddenly he realized that somebody has caught up in terms of dealing with his strengths weaknesses in a way he had never seen before. Then, he evolved his own game , even on clay!
I think its not a matter of evolving his game but rather a change of strategy or gameplan to deal with Novak. I mean what has evolved in his game? Hes still basically playing the same way; despite being good at the net, hes still not going up to the net often or playing a different game. Fed for eg. has evolved his game, from baseline to net rushing. Even Novak has evolved his game lately, from baseline to playing more at mid court and coming to the net often.
Rafa is still running around his BH corner to hit his FH DTL or I/O CC FH. Hes still not having a good enough BHDTL shot. He has his FHDTL shot all along, its a matter of deploying it more often as a strategy against Novak, at FO2014 for eg.
In fact I’m disappointed with how stagnant Rafa’s game is/was. After so many years in the tour, he still couldnt have a good enough BHDTL and so he’s always at a disadvantage against Novak who could change direction at will because he has both DTL and CC shots from both wings. His serve has gone down; in the past he had the varieties, accuracy and he was clutch, now not so esp his second serve. His ROS too isnt as good as before. He’s still sticking to playing from the baseline and rarely come forward, etc and etc.
Lucky, I’ve forwarded your comments to Benny. I got his contact info here on TennGrand!!!!
I enjoy reading your analysis here and must say there are so many good points made…great discussion guys! Although it may have started as a ridiculous debate over percentages (I still like the % game though 🙂 ) it ended up to be one of the most insightful and well informed tennis discussion that I have read in a while…
so thank you all! 🙂
Hawkeye, kindly refer to all the other earlier posts on this thread and see who started all these. A ridiculous debate yet you happily joined in?
I play along for fun sometimes.
But it is seriously laughable.
As I said yesterday when Mary said she agrees with 50% of my posts, that’s more than I do! 🙂
haha….. it’s okay, at least we are analyzing and discussing tennis and not attacking people! all good 🙂
Exactly VR. I’m done with that and am happy that we have defined site rules to abide by for mutual respect.
And Lucky, please don’t disappear like you did before. You were sorely missed.
You have fantastic tennis knowledge and add immensely to this site.
Who is Benny?
Benny
Sorry, Benito Perez-Barbadillo, his PR manager.
Luckystar ( at 9:22 pm),
It’s hawk’s imaginary friend. Hawk has produced a lot of fantasy stories about him…
And why are you forwarding my comments to Benny? Whats the purpose?
You have some great insights on Rafa’s game and it might be useful in the right hands!
Wouldn’t it be nice if some other player had a look in sometime? It’s always about Nadal this, that and the other. This discussion has been dissected every which way and still there is more coming. Nadal’s ears must be wringing the whole time.
That’s the whole point that this site is more of a fan site than a tennis site but recently that has improved.
Great to see a few fans of other players here. I’m tired of doing their work for them to keep things interesting around here.
Would much rather debate them than fellow Rafans.
That what I like about Tennis-X. No where near as fed-centric as this site is Rafa-centric.
But it keeps me sharp. 😉
When you try to wear too many hats it’s hard to know where you stand.
November 3, 2015 at 8:35 pm,
You have made a lot of effort to turn this site into a anti-Rafa-centric site.
.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS6iHGDWcAQOZsA.png:medium
That doesn’t bother me nadline. I am a tennis fan first and a Rafan second.
The sport is bigger than the players which I believe you feel differently about.
I’m not here to convince anybody who’s fan I am. Couldn’t care less.
And yes augusta, you are correct. I’d rather have a balanced site here than a Rafa-centric site.
But stop making this all about me and Rafa.
While you both are obviously fans of both of us….
Let’s talk just a bit more about TENNIS! 🙂
November 3, 2015 at 9:01 pm,
—While you both are obviously fans of both of us…—
===
.
An eyewitness has noticed something else:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS6pG6yVAAASE9s.png:medium
😆
.
I write/talk about Rafa – Rafa IS tennis!
what? of all the people YOU should not be saying this?! Analyzing some other player entails mentioning his weaknesses (which you enjoy a lot) AND also his strengths (which gives you a clear reason to start labeling people as rafa detractors!!!) LOL. I hope you realize that when people are analyzing, it is NATURAL to talk about good things and bad things. If I am assessing novak, I will talk about what he has not or cannot do well but I am also talk about how good he is in some areas. I am most obsessed with rafa’s game and hence the highest focus of my discussions is on that.
She knows VR. She knows.
Looks like she hooked you again. 🙂
I bit intentionally.
#DoYou???
vamosrafa says:
November 3, 2015 at 8:35 pm
I am most obsessed with rafa’s game and hence the highest focus of my discussions is on that.
***********************************
You’re not the only one. Go to any tennis site and it’s all about Nadal. His news thread on TW got so big that someone started version 2 and that’s now far bigger than Fed’s or Novak’s. in fact one of Novak’s fans said the other day that he hardly goes to his news thread he spends the entire time on Nadal’s thread. The same goes for Fedfans.
That’s because 80% of the posts on that thread are from one poster octobrina and the majority of the rest is you LOL.
Someone got banned from the site nadline is talking about @8:44 pm…
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQx2pJrW8AAL3vy.png:medium
here we go, we are talking about moving on and someone comes along by posting something from the past….yeah right
On a decidedly fed-centric site (worse than Ruans Federer Blog because at least Ruan admitted it at the time)…
that’s a
#BadgeOfHonor
It’s OK VR. I’ve moved on.
Hoping we all can and talk more about tennis instead of each other.
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Green Peas and Happiness everybody and Vamos Rafa No Matter what!!!!!
If we talked about other players’ games it might encourage more fans to come on this site.
not possible if you keep attacking people by calling them rafa detractors or belonging to enemy camps or whatever. Saying anything good about any other player does not make him a rafa detractor :S …I hope this can totally end and tenngrand can progress.
She’s baiting you VR. 🙂
I have never talked about enemy camps. The only thing is, no one seems able to just praise another player, it always seems to be in the context of Nadal.
@hawkeye, thanks for the alert 😉
@nadline, it is no secret that fans of nadal are obsessed with nadal so praising another player will very likely still occur in the context of Nadal! and also because nadal is the arch rival for Novak.
vamosrafa,
Right on! Also, why don’t we have a site rule about not posting comments from the past all over the place? It interferes with the discussion and clutters up everything. What people said in the past should stay in the past. Sometimes we are seeing comments from a year ago posted again and again. Over and over.
I don’t know how many times we have talked about other players’ games and gotten trashed for doing so and not being true blue Rafa fans!
valid! Ricky, could you please consider making this as a rule or something: not posting comments from the past all over the place?
i already have a rule saying no spam. That applies to this.
Ricky beat me to it. There is already a rule!
vamosrafa (at 1:53 am),
The solution is simple: don’t lie / don’t construct fantasy stories about others.
I went away because I felt this is more a rafa fan site. There are many other rafa fan sites but they wont want anyone to criticize Rafa. In some other tennis forum, there are nasty people attacking Rafa and his fans, more so than attacking Fed or Novak. Some even suspect that Rafa’s game is so off now because of the implementation of the Biological Passport by WADA and so they think Rafa is now off his usual doping and hence his drop in level.
I come back here and stick with talking about tennis, of course Rafa being my favorite player, I’ll talk more about him having watched most of his matches, more than any other player’s.
I feel the same way as you Lucky.
thumbs up for your post, Luckystar!
and I will respond to your comment at 9.06 pm in a while 🙂
I agree with Lucky about this site being more of a Rafa fan site. Fortunately, that now seems to be changing. We are getting fans of other players and it’s adding a new dimension to the discussion.
I am glad that Lucky came back. We need her great tennis brain and knowledge! I remember how we got into such great discussions on TT about past greats like Borg and many others. Good times! 🙂
Yep
I agree!!!
Luckystar ( at 9:19 pm),
— Some even suspect that Rafa’s game is so off now because of the implementation of the Biological Passport by WADA and so they think Rafa is now off his usual doping and hence his drop in level.–
===
.
Rafa’s enemies started to spread this made-up story a long time ago!
Luckystar says:
November 3, 2015 at 9:19 pm
I went away because I felt this is more a rafa fan site.
********************************
So it wasn’t augusta’s fault that luckystar went away, after all.
Most long time posters here are quite aware of why she left.
She has always been very diplomatic.
nadline10 (at 9:42 pm),
Regular posters here should be quite aware that hawk is producing fantasy stories.