Novak Djokovic is one win away from going through the Asian swing undefeated. Standing in his way of both that feat and the Shanghai title on Sunday is Jo-Wilfried Tsonga. Djokovic crushed Andy Murray in the semis, while Tsonga outlasted Rafael Nadal.
Novak Djokovic and Jo-Wilfried Tsonga will be squaring off for the 20th time in their careers when they collide in the final of the Shanghai Rolex Masters on Sunday.
Djokovic leads the head-to-head series 13-6, but Tsonga is 6-7 lifetime against the Serb on hard courts and 6-6 in hard-court matches that did not end in retirement. While all of those numbers are encouraging for the underdog, this one is not: Djokovic has won 11 of the last 12 at Tsonga’s expense after once trailing the series 5-2. Tsonga finally ended an 11-match losing skid by rolling over Djokovic–and everyone else–6-2, 6-2 en route to the Rogers Cup title last summer.
Shanghai, though, is not exactly the spot where the Frenchman would choose to face Djokovic. The world No. 1 is 23-3 lifetime at this event following victories this week over Martin Klizan, Feliciano Lopez, Bernard Tomic, and Andy Murray and only Tomic has been remotely competitive. Djokovic is also 16-0 in his last 16 matches with titles at the U.S. Open and in Beijing.
Tsonga is invoking memories of his run to the 2014 Toronto title. The competition has not been as strong, but the mental fortitude it has required is commendable. The 15th-ranked Frenchman, a quarterfinalist at the U.S. Open and champion in Metz, survived consecutive three-set thrillers against Albert Ramos-Vinolas, Kevin Anderson, and Rafael Nadal. He preceded those victories by taking out Tommy Robredo and Victor Estrella Burgos.
“All along the season I worked hard to be able to play these matches,” Tsonga commented. “When it happens, I’m really happy to have worked hard because I know I can count on my body. It’s something great for me because it was not always like this. Today I’m a lot stronger than I was maybe few years ago. I think it’s good for me.
“I feel good. To be honest, the season was difficult with a lot of ups and downs. This surface is one of my favourites. I know I’m able to play good tennis. Before I came here, I didn’t know if I will be able to play that good. I hope it’s going to continue.”
It may continue later this fall, but not on Sunday. Tsonga’s Toronto upset of Djokovic was an obvious aberration as opposed to the rule. Speaking of ruling, that is just what the top seed has been doing in Asia and there is no reason to think he is descending from the throne anytime soon.
Pick: Djokovic in 2 losing 5-7 games
[polldaddy poll=9131953]
Why are we assuming it will be 1 man show? Why are we assuming he will keep this up? Did he keep up his 2011 level from 2012-2014?
Yes he is the number 1 for 4 of past 5 years and has been most consistent but he dominated only 11 & 15. 13 was a Rafa show and 2012 and 2014 was dominated by no one, it was shared glory.
^This.
There is nothing fixed in tennis..Anything can happen.
U dont need to look beyond what happened to Rafa after his stellar 2008, 2010 and 2013 seasons.
Novak in 2011 is also a prime reference. How many of us thought after 2011..he would win only 3 of next 12 slams?
Novak is blessed that he doesnt have any major injuries and peak only after Fed was past his prime or almost, and Rafa having peaked at 2010, had to deal with a serious blow of hurting himself at the AO in 2011 when going for his ‘Rafa slam’. Rafa was unfortunate to have to face Novak and lost narrowly to him at Miami final in 2011, when before IW/Miami finals that year, he had not lost a Masters final to Novak.
Imo, Novak peaked at the right time to take advantage of a weak field when other than the big four plus Stan, there are no up and coming youngsters who are ready to challenge for the big prizes and the rest of the top ten too weak to make any impact. Not forgetting, we have Fed and then Murray, followed by Rafa whom each has/had a dreadful season (from 2013-2015) hence the weakened field during those years. We missed a Delpo too who was threatening Novak at Wimbledon and Shanghai in 2013, before Delpo injured his wrist again.
Rafa to me had missed the boat in 2009,.when he was clearly having the upperhand over Fed at the slams and Novak and Murray were not ready to threaten him at the slams. 2009 should be the year where Rafa could dominate over all the slams and cemented his greatness there and then. I strongly feel that had Rafa managed his schedule well and skipped Rotterdam and avoided the injury there, his season would turn out different.
Rafa is not doing badly though having missed the boat in 2009 but he and his team failec to manage his schedule well and he had to suffer so many injuries and upsets since.
Novak is now the HC king, very good on clay and grass too so he’s poised to rule the tennis world right into the future until he grows old unless some young guns out of no where could rise and challenge him.
Skipping Rotterdam wouldn’t have helped Rafa. He skipped the 2009 Wimbledon due to tendonitis/tendinitis in his knees. He recovered from it thanks to PRP treatment in 2010 (April & July).
At the 2009 US Open, Rafa had a right abdominal muscle injury (he got injured in Cincinnati and the tear was getting worse at the US Open).
Nope, if you remember, Rafa wasnt fully recovered from the Rotterdam injury but had to play the DC tie against Serbia not long after. When he lost to Delpo at Miami that year, he was frustrated with himself and was hitting his thigh when sitting down during interval. He was already complaining about his knee issue prior to the clay season and wouldve skipped the new Madrid clay Masters had it not being a home event. His 4 hrs Madrid SF vs Novak was the last straw, damaged his knees that he had to lose early at FO and skipped Wimbledon. To me, had he rested after his AO exploits, he might save himself from the injury; skipping Barcelona and played Madrid might also help him.
The abdominal muscle tear might not be there in the first place had he played Wimbledon right through the NA HC swing. Its the stop start (skipping Wimbledon and restarting at the HCs) that caused him the problem.
Masters 1000 are compulsory events (except the Monte Carlo) for ATP commitment players.
As for Rafa’s knees, he had problems already in 2007.
At the 2007 USO:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRmUvgOUkAAJ1-k.jpg:medium
Luckystar is absolutely correct, his schedule was badly managed in 2009 post the AO -which led to a series of defeats – one of the worst being RG and culminated in his exit at the WTF at the RR stage. There was an added factor which doesn’t get talked about very much i.e. the looming break up of his parents’ marriage which affected him badly and almost certainly destablised him emotionally on court for much of the year. I read that his father broke the news to him on the plane after the AO triumph.
totally agree with the scheduling. Rafa’s scheduling was never too good…team nole and team federer have always done that better…
Rafa could have saved himself in 2009 to a a decent extent… and saying masters 1000 are mandatory is not an excuse at all…come on, players can always skip them…not a big issue they are…
ed251137 says:
October 18, 2015 at 12:31 pm
—There was an added factor which doesn’t get talked about very much i.e. the looming break up of his parents’ marriage …—
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Every Rafan who have read Rafa’s autobiography titled “My Story” should know this. 🙂
October 18, 2015 at 12:34 pm
— and saying masters 1000 are mandatory is not an excuse at all…—
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It’s not an excuse; it’s the ATP rule and there are ATP penalties.
Augusta:
No match, mandatory or otherwise, is compulsory when a player is injured!
The penalties are imposed to stop players cherry picking which tournaments they play.
Federer has managaed his schedule astutely for years. Just look at his Performance Timelne for evidence of this.
ed251137 (at 12:53 pm),
Whatever, a penalty is a penalty.
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I have read for more than 5 years that “Federer has managaed his schedule astutely for years…” (i.e. since I started to visit Tennistalk)…
I know he is not required to play mandatory Masters now but before that he was still prepared to skip or exit early when he felt it prudent to so so.
lucky,
I don’t agree. I think that after Rafa’s amazing year in 2010, one would have rightly assumed that he would dominate in 2011. He had the back luck to get that terrible virus at Doha and that seemed to change everything. He lost in the quarterfinals to Ferrer due to a hamstring injury that came from Rafa not being fully recovered. I think that disappointment set the tone. I also think it took Rafa even more time to fully recover from that severe viral infection.
Things seemed to go downhill from there and Rafa was unable to handle a Novak who was playing much better that year. But I simply cannot agree about the mismanagement of his schedule being the cause of everything.
I think the big mistake Rafa made in 2009 was after winning the AO. He needed a few weeks rest to recover from playing two incredibly tough and long matches in the semis and finals. But he played in Rotterdam a week later. That was the decision that would ultimately cost him very dearly.
It’s also easy to go back and say something in hindsight. No one can know the future. So I think it’s kind of a pointless exercise to say – should have, would have.
Just one more thing to add to my post @ 2:29 pm. I am in agreement with you about Rafa playing at Rotterdam. I also can agree that there were some mistakes and bad decisions regarding Rafa’s schedule. He and his team had to learn the hard way.
I will also say that the decision to play in Madrid that year is really inexplicable. Rafa already had pain in his knees. That semi with Novak was a case of winning the battle but losing the war. That match was the last straw for Rafa’s knees. I will never understand why he played there and this business of it being mandatory is absurd. Rafa had knee tendinitis and that was more than sufficient as a legitimate injury to give him reason not to play.
I am just saying that I do not agree that the mistakes in scheduling in 2009 are the entire reason why Rafa could not dominate. I say that because Rafa did come back and dominate in 2010. It was when the new improved Novak arrived in 2011. That changed everything and nothing Rafa did or did not do would have changed it.
nativenewyorker7 says:
October 18, 2015 at 2:36 pm,
—this business of it being mandatory is absurd—
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You should let the ATP know that the rules are absurd.
NNY, I dont think you get my point right. The scheduling issues happened in 2009 which to me was the cause for Rafa’s injury issues. If not for the injury, who knows, Rafa would have another two or even three more slams under his belt and Fed two less, and Rafa might have a good three to four years of continual dominance and hence more weeks at no.1
His 2010 schedule was OK except for playing three consecutive weeks during the Asian HC swing. What I found frustrating was that when Rafa was on the cusp of achieving something great, ie getting his Rafa slam at the AO the following year, he had to be involved in those charity matches that he had with Fed at both Swizerland and Spain, and hence wasnt able to rest and recover and be well prepared for the next season. His virus infection at Doha made things worse. His 2011 season was a misery for him, with the missed chance at the AO and the subsequent losses to Novak.
1) There was never such a thing as ‘Rafa Slam’. Nothing belongs to a player until he actually wins it. Nadal didn’t. If he got injured (or claimed to have been so) yet again, the problem is his. It’s not luck. It’s his problem that he cannot vary his game enough to control damage to his body and has to periodically. In fact he’s lucky everything plays so slow. At least he was able to contend and win at all majors.
2)Nadal wasn’t “unfortunate” to be in finals. What kind of a logic is that? I can bet he’d take his 2011 over the current season anyday.
Federer is lucky to then as all of his slams came after surfaces were made slower except for Roland Garros where they are actually quicker.
Fed was made to succeed in any era. Like Laver. All courters never falter.
And as for claimed, you mean like Roger claimed mono, his.”back”problem in 2013 and his conveniently short lived back problem that lasted a single day when he was to meet Nole in the WTF finals then yes?
His Rafa slam means Rafa winning and holding all four slams at the same time, not THE calendar slam which doesnt ‘belong’ to anyone. Its just like Novak was going for his ‘Novak slam’ at the FO2012 after winning Wimbledon, USO in 2011 and AO in 2012. We certainly wont call that THE calendar slam or the Federer slam, do we??
Unfortunate to meet Novak in the final means: to have to meet the all conquering Novak in the final and not anyone less formidable there. I thought that’s pretty obviously and needs no explanation!
Nadal is more of an all courter as he has multiple slams on all three surfaces with five years less on tour.
Fed never falter? Really? How about losing to a guy two thirds of the times when they met?
Tennis fan is blinded by the light that shines out of Federer’s.
Not to mention 2-8 in slams but then again that’s the whole problem with Rafa when it comes to fedfans, isn’t it.
lucky,
Oh, thanks for the clarification. I see your point now. I did say that I agreed with you basically. I do think that Rafa playing Rotterdam a week after that physical grueling AO was really unwise. He pushed himself way too hard after that. The final blow was playing in Madrid and that long, tough battle with Novak in the semifinal. It really was the last straw for Rafa’s knees.
But now I do get that if Rafa had cut back and schedule himself more wisely in 2009, he could have managed to win RG and maybe even Wimbledon again. Instead it was Fed who reaped the benefits and he won both including the career slam.
Thanks again! 🙂
Falter in terms of being or not being able to play in any era. Now THAT was obvious.
There’s no such thing as RafaSlam/ Novak Slam and the Novak Slam until it’s done-which in both instances was not the case.
As for being unfortunate- I don’t count 14 majors as unfortunate from any angle. That way we could all have stories of misfortune for our favourite players. If meeting the best player of the moment in finals is unfortunate then a lot of players have been really unlucky in life.
“Falter in terms of being or not being able to play in any era. ”
According to your own “logic”, there’s no such thing.
Agree with TennisFan here. The word “if” weighs heaviest in Luckystar’s post; all we have is the record, which shows that both Fed and Djoker came within one match (and, to be really picky, two sets) of a non-calendar slam. Nadal fell two matches short of that.
He has some wonderful records of his own, and it beggars belief that a self-described Nadal fan would want Djoker to overtake the Fed slam titles record when this involves overhauling Nadal himself. Given that the Serb has overtaken Nadal on almost all other fronts, leaving only h2h and Masters Series titles won (bar the clay records which will surely be Nadal’s alone) – and these are surely a formality at the rate of going – it is pretty difficult to credit. Most neutrals place the greatest value on slam titles won when assessing the greats. Anybody would think the poster in question adored Federer, and none too secretly at that.
If course it is. A player’s skill set is a ‘credit report’ of his ability to perform in a given condition. I may not be able to predict how many majors Fed would win in precisely which quantum. But I can always judge his skill level, compare it with those who’ve played before and place him firmly in their company- which is what I’m doing. I cannot do the same for either Nadal or Djokovic on grass and Nadal on HC because I can see the aggregate limitations of their games which get masked in today’s conditions.
So many straw man arguments here. So hilarious!
I am a tennis fan first and foremost before, during and after Rafa’s career.
And Nole doesn’t have to pass Rafa first and alternately can do it after Rafa retires. I will always cheer for Rafa in a match vs. Nole and Rafa can still catch Fed. If he doesn’t, I will cheer for Nole to catch him.
“the Serb has overtaken Nadal on almost all other fronts” except, except, except…
So many qualifiers here
-other than clay
-other than Masters events
-other than slams
-other than winning h2h (or tie) vs every top 30 player
-other than DC wins
-other than Olympic Gold
“Most neutrals place the greatest value on slam titles won when assessing the greats. ”
This may be the funniest statement and straw man at that. Please list a few tennis “neutrals”? And besides, you don’t have to be neutral to place greatest value on slam titles. I know I do.
I just hope that you don’t compare “greatest” with “only”, don’t you? Or do you. No, you did. OK good.
Hmm, you’re the one who expressed a wish for Djoker to overtake Federer in terms of slams won. It clearly means a lot to you.
As far as my interest in tennis, yeah, it’d be cool.
But not sure what that has to do with your straw man posts. Likely nothing. Just a transparent diversion attempt at pointing out your straw man arguments.
Preferably Rafa but anyone especially a great player like Nole would be great.
It would give the same type of satisfaction I got watching Nole beat Fed and shut up all of the boorish fed fans in Ashe that cheered every one of Nole’s unforced errors, every missed first serve, double fault and interrupted many service motions. Classless.
That. Was. Awesome.
Too much credit given to Djokovic who benefits from Rafa’s injuries…if the mental midget Berny was able to test him anyone hard hitting & serving well could do so…as one Nole’s fan said Novak is bemused with easiness in wining his matches…the opponents simply do not believe they can beat him and rather lose their matches in the locker room…Stan being exception as he never feared Novak’s “wall” game…
I believe this endless rally game of Nole will affect his body at some point unless he and his team start better planing of his schedule and focus mainly on GS…but it’s not gonna happen…their minds are still into the wining it all pattern…when they finally realize the mistake they are making it will be too late…
If anyone is hoping that Novak will fall apart physically, I think that’s wishful thinking. I said yesterday that I think Novak does what is necessary to win in the earlier rounds and then goes up another gear when it really counts. That’s the formula he has now and it’s working for him. He has enormous reserves of confidence. If he doesn’t have to go all out to beat a lesser player, then he’s not going to kill himself just to make the score look better. Tomic supposedly testing him means nothing in the end, because Novak won Shanghai. He’s looking at the big picture.
it’s not hoping or any kind of evil-wishing to that matter…nothing like that…it’s just a logical thing…anyone into sports knows it…no one is able to endure so much stress on his body unless having some superhuman powers…and we all know Novak’s history…he used to retire all the time due to breathing problems, and other sorts of issues…
ATM Novak is so good from the baseline and at the same time full of confidence that he can outhit anyone…however, other tennis players will start doing the same thing, the way for instance, Albert Ramos was able to outhit Fed…it is just matter of time and belief…
Novak is aging as well and will get a bit slower every year while hitting the ball like crazy every single match will do no favor to his body…and playing every tournament will be taxing on his body…
augusta,
You know exactly what I was talking about. My point is that if a player has a legitimate injury, then that gives him a reason to skip a Masters event. Rafa had the knee tendinitis and that was more than sufficient reason for him to pull out. Everyone here knows that it’s mandatory to play Masters events, but we also know that players have had to pull our due to injury. It does happen.
nativenewyorker7 says:
October 18, 2015 at 2:59 pm
augusta,
—You know exactly what I was talking about—
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Nope, I can’t see into your head.
TennisFan,
I think that you are being deliberately obtuse in this discussion. Of course it can’t be something until it’s done! Everyone knows that! But I don’t get why you are carping over anyone saying that it’s the Rafa slam or the Novak slam. Rafa had the chance to go for it, so did Fed and Novak. Nobody was able to get it done. That’s a fact. So what’s the problem?
I also think you know what was meant about Rafa having the misfortune to meet Novak
in the finals in 2011. Rafa could beat everyone else, but had trouble with the new version of Novak that year. Nobody said he had a bad year either. Also, Rafa ultimately did find the answers and got the best of Novak for the next few years until this year.
Where did you get the idea that Fed was made to succeed in any era? That’s hubris if I ever heard it! Since when? How can you possibly know that? Also, what’s your point? The fact is that Fed played in the era in which he played. The one immutable point that Fed fans cannot deal with, is the lopsided H2H that Rafa has over Fed. If you trash or demean Rafa, then you are just doing the same to your guy. If Rafa is not all that, then how was he able to be so dominant and win so many times against Fed? Surely you are not going to say it’s luck.
If you are going to argue that Fed was made to succeed in any era, then I can argue that Rafa certainly was made to succeed in any era. He owns Fed in their H2H. You cannot get around that fact.
#ShawkshankRedemption
According to tennis fan’s own “logic”, never falter doesn’t exist because it’s never happened.
So how can Fed never falter by that “logic”?
#TwoWayStreet
Shawshank Redemption was the most overrated movie of all time.
Where did I even attempt to justify the “H2H” that you are so obsessed with? It is not a concern for me the same way that the fact that Pete did not win a FO is not a concern for me. Both have their reasons which have been adequately dealt with as far as I am concerned. Roger’s career did have its pitfalls. He did blow his share of leads/ miss an inordinate amount of break point opportunities against a lot of guys/ blow a few MPs and so forth. But I rate the aggregate of his skill set to be superior to the others that I have seen. I can see it play out in front of me and it’s actually fairly obvious to most. I think he’s far superior to anyone I have seen in this era and in most other eras and that along with what I think is the perfect built for tennis is what has ultimately helped his durability in tennis and his capacity to contend with those far removed from his own generation.
I’ glad that you rate the aggregate of his skill set to be superior to the others that you have seen.
I respect your opinion even if many disagree.
This is Nole’s best season. 2011 was big because of the streak but he’s better this year. 2011 he faded badly. No sign of that this year. He is finishing strong.
TennisFan,
You are only expressing your opinion. Surely you must realize that it is not fact.
Djokovic in 2015 –
Tournaments – 14
Finals – 13
Titles – 9
Grand Slams – 3
Won – 71
Lost – 5
And you guys think Djokovic’s success is being exaggerated or he is being given more credit than he deserves? Look at these numbers….this is insane! he is doing in day in day out and the change of surfaces is not bothering him… I am HATING this because he is catching up with rafa so quickly….he has 10 slams and he is set to overtake rafa in Masters 1000 as well…he is leading in the weeks at no.1 and the YE no.1’s …
Yeah, the timing has been favorable for him but how much djokovic has improved in all aspects is incredible. he is a far superior player than he was in 2011! he is right now, the fittest mentally as well as physically and his game is impenetrable at times…
I am hopeful rafa is going to be back to his best and he will wrestle away a few more slams… but djokovic is a very scary prospect now…look how much he has distanced himself from Murray this year!
Rafa also said novak is on a totally different level right now… Federer has aged but he has become more dangerous than ever in many ways..true he has lost some instinct and speed but he is a much more complete player. The way fed demolished wawrinka at the USO and then the way novak halted him was quite impressive.
Rafa is the only guy who can stop this novak. I don’t hope injurues for anyone but I guess it would be fair if novak can have some barriers ? haha…. Rafa needs to be ready 100% by the time AO rolls around! and he can do it!
vamosrafa,
I agree with your take on Novak’s success this year. I also appreciate you posting the stats to back up your argument. I just managed to catch the last half of the second set of the final today. I wasn’t even planning on watching it. But I switched to the tennis channel and it was on. I have to say that Novak had all the answers. He was brilliant. As expected, Tsonga couldn’t do much.
Novak has improved in all aspects of his game. He’s gone to a whole other level and that’s why he’s left everyone else behind. As for Fed, he can only beat Novak in a best of three match. He cannot beat him in slams anymore.
I also agree with you that I just hate seeing this. I have to accept and acknowledge it because I don’t like in a fantasy world. But I don’t like it at all. He is getting too close to Rafa for my liking. We do need Rafa back to his best. He is the only one who can stop Novak.
Things change pretty quickly in tennis…. When rafa won AO 09 people thought he would shatter all records but then he got unlucky and got injured…. people thought fed’s reign would last forever until rafa changed the order in 2008 and we know djokovic faded after 2011…BUT, it is a bit different this time in that djokovic is a better player and competition is not too great unless rafa really steps up…
I have high hopes and expectations from rafa….he is capable of dominating again… may luck also be on his side.
the only thing different in Nole’s game now is his physical fitness which allows him to win his matches on pure power and endurance…all of this leads to increase in confidence and mental strength…he is able to run and hit forever…his serve is also huge advantage but we all know that good serving depends on mental condition…
Novak was able to challenge Rafa way back in 2011 and he used to lose matches mentally as Rafa was mental beast back then…his game was quite good even back then…he has not tremendously improved…that is IMO fake impression of having weak opponents…and the proof of it is Fed being able to challenge him even now…and Stan being able to beat him mainly because the RG is the place at which Novak has never won the title and his belief and mental toughness suddenly fade away…
Rafa’s game is so dependent on his mental condition…and the injuries do not help either…I hope he will be able to overcome those inner self demons otherwise he will continue to lose matches that he had under his belt…
Novak has improved his game a lot… and novak did not lose RG because he was mentally not tough, he lost because of wrong tactics! BB later admitted that during wimbledon and it made sense. I was saying it throughout that match that novak’s got the tactics wrong today. There was also some arguments between vajda and BB regarding the tactics in that match….. Apart from Novak’s play, stan was EXTREMELY good…he blew federer away in 3 sets without facing BP and was playing like a terminator….
And people are just focusing on fed’s age and think even this fed is challening novak…..what people are missing is how tremendously federer has improved his game! he is a master tactician now, he has a much better backhand now and he is SO MUCH BETTER at the net! he can approach the net much better now and volleys pretty well….Fed’s improved his game a lot to make up for his age… Remember what he did to Murray at Wimbledon?? ! oh, and fed’s serve is better than ever too!
October 18, 2015 at 1:24 pm
—and novak did not lose RG because he was mentally not tough, he lost because of wrong tactics! BB later admitted that during wimbledon and it made sense…There was also some arguments between vajda and BB regarding the tactics in that match—
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BB was blamed for “not giving the right support” [gestures to motivate] to Djoko during the RG final.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRmsNiMUEAE8pGn.png:medium
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During Wimbledon, BB confirmed use of special signals (i.e. on-court coaching).
I add to my post at 2:05 pm:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRmuZRgWoAALpzb.png:medium
he also talked about using the wrong tactics going into the match when he was giving an interview in the studio at wimbledon….if interested, you can watch that video.
vamosrafa,
I agree with you on all points in your post @ 1:24 pm. Nothing more to add.
@vamosrafa,
we can then agree to disagree. My opinion is Novak lost in the RG final because Wawa was better! Simple as that. So are you saying that he lost the AO 2014 also because of the bad tactics? So Boris had a year and a half to develop a working tactics against Wawa and he failed to find an answer? Maybe Boris should get fired then… 🙂
While some of you argue here that Novak is unbeatable and his tennis has so much improved that nobody can challenge him, how come he failed to win the title (again!), the one that he cares about the most? Too bad one can not read the Serbian press…you would be able to see all the hype and all the significance they place on the RG title which puts enormous pressure on Novak… he lost that final because his mental toughness is not given and it can be challenged…and when challenged mentally he gets beaten by the players who play well and who most of all believe they can win, just like Wawa did…
All of you here describing Novak as the current and future GOD of tennis (judging by your visionary views which I tend to interpret as rather utopist views) I see only as pure speculation. I still think it’s lack of opposition rather than Novak’s superiority…We will see if Novak can remain “superhuman” which I highly doubt…he has a lot of points to defend next year…
Sure, one cannot ignore Novak’s huge talent…his baseline game is perfect because his body allows him to do it…OTOH his net play, his forehand smashes are still subject to UEs…it’s just that he does it so rarely because he mostly rely on his baseline game that it hardly gets noted…Rafa’s backhand smash is so better than Novak’s even this year when Rafa’s is nowhere near his best…
Of course, if Novak proves me wrong and makes another conquests next year I will gladly admit to my wrong theory and will sincerely congratulate his fans as well as all of those fortune tellers who exist on this site… 🙂
“While some of you argue here that Novak is unbeatable”
Some who?
#QuotePlease
I doubt Rafa will dominate again, at best its a shared dominance with Novak, with Novak winning the AO and Wimbledon and Rafa the FO and USO. They may split the Masters like each winning three and the other three won by Murray/Fed and someone else. The WTF may be Novak’s unless Rafa steps it up and wins it.
It all depends which Rafa we will be seeing next year and how’s the competition then.
Agreed…I did not mean to say he would dominate outright …winning 2 slams would be a stellar year..
Outstanding again Djokovic with Masters Series tile # 25. He has played 7 masters series events this year winning 5 and getting to the final of 2, cant recall the last time someone was so dominant at majors and also masters series events. Unfortunately on a Djokovic thread most of the discussion is about unnecessary stuff related Rafa Nadal. Nothing new, every thread here ultimately turns into a Rafa Nadal thread. If you want to discuss things related to Rafa why not post on his thread?
because Rafa is the only one who can stop Novak…like it or not…
Agree with you here, natashao.
Rafa needs to get his forehand firing a lot more…. he needs more penetration….plus, he must gain the confidence to be able to change direction in his forehand in key moments of the match… and he is certainly not as dynamic in his movement as vintage rafa would be… his backhand side is more attack-able due to this …..he is lacking some explosiveness in his movement but that will come with time….I believe that time is not far away…
Rafa’s made it clear in his interview that from now on he will be returning serve from close to the baseline and he will try to maintain a positive court position throughout the match…. this is out of his comfort zone so he needs a bit more time..I am glad he is adapting!
Novak has upped his game definitely. His net approaches have improvecd, his feel when at the net has improved and his court position, his serve, his volleying, his shot selection and court craft, almost everything has improved. He’s now a complete or near complete player. Its incredible how well he can change direction at will, able to create all the angles and now even able to vary the pace and deals with the change of pace from his opponents quite well. He’s now able to rush his opponents into errors too.
I think Novak is now the bigger monster than Fed at his peak, for he may soon win the FO if Rafa can’t get back to his high level and if Stan starts to decline and can no longer hold back Novak. He unlike Fed, may win some more clay court masters and he’s only two HC slams away from Fed’s HC slam record and two WTF away from Fed’s too. He may soon hold the Masters record and also complete the set at Cincy, not to mention winning the Olympic gold next year.
Another scary thing is he still has time to win one more Madrid and two Cincy to make it multiple titles at each Masters! He already has the highest prize money won in a single season, in 2015, breaking Rafa’s 2013 record and he’s now chasing Fed’s career prize money won record.
Its just so incredible what Novak has achieved in five years, esp the no. of Masters titles won. Will the rest of the field, Rafa included, please step up and stop this monster?
yup…I am not sure why so many rafans are in denial that novak is simply benefiting from a weak era :S he is a MONSTER out there….scary to be honest…all the improvements you have talked about in your post, Luckystar, I agree with them . For me , however , the biggest improvement is in his forehand! it has become such a big weapon! it was so easy to draw attack-able shots from his forehands in the past but now he is eats his opponents with that shot. He was trading CC blows with fed’s forehand in Wimbledon and USO finals and we do realize fed arguably has the best forehand ever?!
Novak’s got the best CC regulation forehand at the moment… he lacks some firepower as compared to roger’s and rafa’s forehand but he changes direction with such ease … he has countered rafa’s inside out forehands by hitting forhands DTL’s so effectively so it is imperative rafa changes direction more often.
I don’t even want to think of the records novak can make. Right now, I am hoping Rafa will be ready for 2016 and he will change the dynamics. Rafa also needs to improve his fitness , no doubt about that….he cannot afford to get tired in slams!
As a matter of fact Nole was challenging Rafa way back in 2006* but in those days he simply retired from any match when he felt he wasn’t going to win. Rafa made Novak the player he is today although it took him till 2011 before he beat Rafa on clay for the first time.
*the year he famously said ‘I was in control of the match’. And he went on to add ‘I’m telling you Rafa is not invincible on clay’.
yeah…but that’s true for all three of fed, novak , rafa…..at diff points, they have made each other so much better players… rafa sweeped the NA hard court swing in 2013 and novak has a big role in bringing about those improvements…. similarly, fed attributes his improved backhand to rafa!
You have to feel a bit for Andy Murray. He will always be regarded as the junior of the Big Four due to his Slam record but there is always one or even more of them to get past to win the big titles.
I dont. Not only is he a professional tennis player, but he is also a professional tennis player who has won the US Open, Wimbledon, and Olympic gold.
True and probably the biggest benefciary was Rafa who spent all those years as No.2 to Federer and learn to adapt his game to grass and hard courts to arrive at their present h2h.
My post at 1.38 was in response to Natasho at 1.02pm
Ricky: Glad to know you respect Murray’s achievements. A lot of people (including many pundits) don’t bother to look beyond the stats. Earlier this year even Koenig declared categorically Murray could no longer be counted as one of the Big Four without bothering to mentioning his ranking had slipped because he had been out of action for months after back surgery.
I don’t see why anyone would think Murray doesn’t belong in the Big Four. He’s been ranked in the top four consistently with the one exception being when he had back surgery. As Ricky stated, he’s won Wimbledon and the USO and the Olympic gold medal. That’s not too shabby.
64aces is right. This discussion belongs on Rafa’s page. It would make his page look much more respectable as opposed to Instagram fan selfies ruling the day.
Lucky, VR, ed and nats are the most knowledgeable tennis rafans here. Great discussion you guys!
October 18, 2015 at 2:57 pm,
If I remember correctly, someone has made a huge longtime effort to turn Rafa’s page(s) into his beloved players’ pages…
May I point out that virtually all the points being discussed here appertain to today’s final which, but for a few careless mistakes and unlucky net cords, would have been between Rafa and Novak. Ergo, it is unrealistic to analyse Novak’s prowess without referencing his closest rival. Tennisfan’s suggestion of banishing the follow up discussion to separate player pages is patently nonsensical.
^I agree. I don’t understand how anyone could possibly state that it’s all about Rafa. I remember reading this kind of thing after the USO final and felt the need to point out at that time, the number of comments on that topic thread. I believe it was something close to 400 comments. There was an active, lively discussion about Fed and Novak on that topic thread, despite the fact that the majority of fans here are Rafa fans.
I also don’t see anything wrong with bringing Rafa into the discussion. It is true that he is Novak’s rival. He came thisclose to getting into the final to meet him again. It’s natural to discuss these two players.
I certainly do not agree that the discussion should be relegated to player pages.
mmmmmmm…. really? What about the one directly above yours? Are these really pertinent to today’s match?
Such as this one.
https://tenngrand.com/2015/10/17/shanghai-final-preview-and-pick-djokovic-vs-tsonga/comment-page-1/#comment-220620
And pretty much every post on this thread by same poster like this one…
augusta08 says:
October 18, 2015 at 4:23 pm
Nope, I can’t see into your head.
and this one…
augusta08 says:
October 18, 2015 at 2:47 pm
You should let the ATP know that the rules are absurd.
and this one…
augusta08 says:
October 18, 2015 at 1:13 pm.
I have read for more than 5 years that “Federer has managaed his schedule astutely for years…” (i.e. since I started to visit Tennistalk)…
Granted 😉
But you’re on dangerous ground. Be a good boy or you’ll be sent to stand in the corner again.
I’ve been very polite to everybody.
The poster who wrote the comment on October 18, 2015 at 8:07 pm produces half-truths as usually (except when he is totally lying)!
Here are the original posts:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRpcCDKXAAAjDRw.png:medium
^Does that mean that the rest of us don’t know what we are talking about?
And nny too!
Oh thank you! Sorry, but the comment was just meant in jest! I should have put a smiley face there! I hope you did not take it seriously, but that was still very nice! 🙂
Oh and now that I am caught up, I do agree that this has been a great discussion! 🙂
VR had the best technical knowledge.
ed/nny have the best historical knowledge.
nats has the best understanding of Rafa’s psyche.
But of course all four are able to be great Rafans while still being great tennis fans at the same time.
Something that rabid Rafans and rabid fed fans are incapable of.
hawkeye,
🙂
October 18, 2015 at 4:16 pm,
I have read for more than 5 years (i.e. since I started to visit Tennistalk) that being a Rafan is a huge sin in the eyes of self-appointed judges. 😆
Show me one example.
#StrawmanArgument
past tense?
no, typo. Should read…
Of Rafans here:
VR HAS the best technical knowledge.
ed/nny have the best historical knowledge.
nats has the best understanding of Rafa’s psyche.
Thanks Ricky.