The King of Clay’s throne is abdicated no more.
And nobody even came close from preventing his latest ascension.
Rafael Nadal completed a perfect run to this 10th French Open title and first since 2014 when he won his seventh straight-set match of the fortnight, erasing Stan Wawrinka 6-2, 6-3, 6-1 on Sunday afternoon. Nadal triumphed after only two hours and fives minutes of play.
This one–like the former world No. 1’s six matches before it throughout the fortnight–was never competitive.
Wawrinka held his first two service games but lost four games in a row starting at 2-2 to end the set in unceremonious fashion. Nadal stormed to a 3-0 lead in the second and easily consolidated the break, without even being pushed to deuce on serve at any point during the middle frame. From there it was all over for Wawrinka, who donated his serve once again to begin the third and was also broken on two more occasions thereafter.
“For sure I was nervous this morning about the match, about the final, about playing against him,” the third-ranked Swiss admitted. “But when I enter the court, I enjoy it and I appreciate [being] in the final of a Grand Slam here [at the] French Open. That’s always something special, and you need to see that also from the big picture.
“For sure this score wasn’t good, the match wasn’t good, but at the end of the day there’s a lot of positives to take from the last few weeks.”
Wawrinka had been in the midst of a 10-match winning streak before he ran into Nadal. He was coming off a title in Geneva, won his first five matches at Roland Garros all in straight sets, and toppled top-seeded Andy Murray in a five-set semifinal.
But Wawrinka was no match for Nadal, who more than doubled his unforced errors(12) with winners (27), faced just one break point, and never got broken.
“I know Wawrinka is a very dangerous opponent, so my mentality was there all the time thinking that I cannot give him the chance to be back in the match,” Nadal explained. “Because then he starts to hit so strong from the baseline and he’s able to produce amazing shots.
“The only thing that I know is I am playing well now. I am happy. I am enjoying every week and I want to continue and I’m gonna try to keep working hard to try to enjoy more beautiful weeks.”
The 31-year-old has enjoyed plenty of them at the French Open, but never has Nadal been more dominant than he was this time. He lost a grand total of 35 games throughout the event, the second fewest by any man at any major in the best-of-five-set Open Era (since 1968).
The second serve factor is big.All those big hitters, they used to serve big and hold their service games and always tried to keep going for big returns on Rafa’s second serves.
Rafa can do serious damage at wimby.
Agreed VR. As long as Rafa could win points on his own serves, be it first or second, to hold his service games, he’ll have his chances against the big hitting guys.
He has better ROS than most players, and his serves these days aren’t easy to return and so the big serving guys may not break his serves either. It comes down to how clutch Rafa is in important moments, esp when facing BPs and how well he could read and return his opponents’ big serves, imo.
Rafaisthebest;
Rafawasthebest;
Rafawillbethebest;
Rafawillalwaysbethebest.
As for the FFT bringing Uncle Toni to hand over the La Decima trophy to Rafa, they do say class recognizes class……………magnifique, exceptionnelle, bravissimo! Mwaaaaa……..
For the curious, yes, this is Rafaisthebest, reincarnated as RITB 3.0 in honor of the incomparable, untouchable Rafa Nadal Parera, soon to change to RITB 4.0 after Rafa wins AO2018 to complete the Rafa Slam.
Welcome back!
Thank you @Mary! More importantly, Rafa’s back where he belongs, in the winner’s circle……….
RITB, it is great to have you back. I am waiting for you to light up this forum with your ready wit. hawkeye does a good job too and has attracted quite a fan following!
Respectfully Mary, I’m not looking for fans, just mutual respect – TG is just a place to express my tennis views.
Always trying to be respectful overall contrary to appearances – unfortunately I usually “fail better, fail harder.”
Thanks.
ha ha, let us say you attract fans despite your best attempts to antagonize everyone!
Thank you @Mary! Will try to keep my “ready wit” on the right side of civility. Unfortunately, sometimes my “ready wit” flies too close to gallows humor, kkkk! No harm intended. As Rafa would say, I will try my best, no?
Ha ha, good luck!
Welcome back…Rafa slam…that will be incredibly tough .
Thanks @Sanju! Some things never change, eh? You know me, I will always pick Rafa to sweep all four!
Yes, Rafa Slam will be incredibly tough given his age, but Rafa does tough, always. 10 RG’s is incredibly tough and yet he did it. Rafa can do it.
Great to have you back, RITB! This forum is becoming a real force now! ?
Vamos!
Vamos @Nats! Glad to be back in the community of the best fans in the world, Rafans……..
Where you been???????????
#IwasWorried
#RITB
#RafaGOAT
@Hawkeye miss me? Liar, liar pants on fire…………….@Conspirator would miss me, not @Hawkeye…
#RITB
#RafaistheGOAT
Very fair RITB. I did deeply apologize to you and said I’d understand if you didn’t accept.
That apology stands today. We are all human.
But you’ve been deeply missed by all.
Nothing to apologize to me for @hawkeye, honestly. I do not keep grudges, let’s move on, please?
Gladly. Was concerned about you thinking I did not miss you is all.
RITB:
A lot of us were concerned when you suddenly ceased posting without any warning. Glad you’ve re-surfaced. Missed you. Why don’t you update us (over on the Non Tennis thread) on what you’ve been up to since you went AWOL!
Missed you too, @ed251137, especially when Le Tour was on! Now there’s a thought, up date you on what I have been up to during my “absence”? Hahaha! Let me give this further thought…………
Fed down a break 3-2 against Haas in the final se
He lost.
Only shows up for Masters and Slams apparently.
#Donskoyed
I know some of you want to wait 4 the draw at wimbledon but let’s just have fun, anyone can contribute who are your two favourite player’s in ATP to win the title(wimbledon)?
And as for HAWKTARD plz stick to tennis not politics, you mentioned impeachment, have you heard of the saying innocent until proven guilty.
And in this case there is an overwhelming evidence of innocence, please don’t let hate blind your judgement.
God bless president Donald j. Trump.
#MAGA
Stanley, I guess you’re on your own here….
So creepy.
Multiple levels of creepy.
Ratcliff, hadn’t noticed that poster before, but I stumbled into the non-tennis section – and – oh well…
Don’t be a stranger to the non-tennis forum, littlefoot! There’s some good stuff there too once in awhile.
And please visit the WTA thread …it’s kinda hard to find but…several of us try to keep it updated.
Thanks, ratcliff. Yes, it seems that the really meaningful debates go on over there 😉
Just curious, Stanley. What do you take to be the “overwhelming evidence” of Trump’s innocence?
Trump won’t be impeached before mid-term elections unless Republican leadership judges his political liabilities to outweigh the benefits. Surest way for that to happen is for Trump to fire Mueller, who is now investigating Donald personally for obstruction of justice.
Every single Trump adviser is telling him, in no uncertain terms: Don’t fire Mueller.
I put the odds of Trump firing him at about 75%… and rising daily.
There is a concept in law called consciousness of guilt. Like when someone flees after a crime has been committed. Or tries to hide evidence.
The point is the Trump has exhibited thus quality over and over again. His absolute refusal to reveal his tax returns, even to this day. The firing of FBI Director James Comey and has subsequent admission in a TV interview that it was because of the Russia investigation. He also fired another prosecutor. His meeting with the two Russian officials in the White House and excluding the American media and only allowing the Russian media. His continued contact with Michael Flynn even after he was fired for lying to the Vice President and President and taking monies from a foreign government and not disclosing it, which was illegal.
There are many other instances that indicate a man who knows he’s guilty as sin and will do whatever it takes to hide the truth.
Trump has the presumption of innocence, as does any American citizen. However, the American people are free to reach their own conclusions based on Trump’s conduct. We are not in a court of law yet.
I think they will get him when all is said and done. The truth has a way of coming out in the end.
Well said, and I hope, you’re right as far as the future is concerned.
Nny,Mary,littlefoot,lucky,VR,hawks,ed and other Rafans….
http://www.tennisworldusa.org/news/news/Rafael_Nadal/44373/here-is-how-rafael-nadal-can-be-world-no-1-again-after-wimbledon/
MA, the fight for the No 1 ranking will be really interesting this year. I don’t think that Murray will be able to hold onto the top spot until the end of the season. He has lost too many points already and he has an insane amount of points to defend from now on. For starters he needs to defend his Wimby title. Not impossible, though IMO. Many are pencilling in Roger for the title already, but Andy has become a real fighter, and by now he knows how to win Wimby. I see Rafa’s chances for the pole position more in a temporary hold. I don’t think he can hold it at the end of the year since the fall has never favored him. But Rafa did well at the AO although the surface had become a lot faster. If Rafa has a respectable showing in Wimby and does well in the American hard court swing – who knows? Many assume that Roger will continue to dominate the season. But we just saw yesterday: it ain’t that easy and contrary to some of his fans, even Roger can’t walk on water. The big question mark is of course the Djoker. If he rediscovers his mojo he might spoil the party at some tournaments.
Yeah littlefoot!…You’re absolutely right!Rafa not in this position for a long time now..I can’t wait to see his amazing journey at least until USO…i think he will do well there…losing to The Fog and Pouille certainly will make him more fired up at USO this year…who knows maybe he can repeat the feat like 2013?Hahaha…we certainly can hope,right littlefoot?
Oh btw..have u ever watch Rafa play anywhere littlefoot?
MA, no I have not watched Rafa live anywhere, neither Roger, which is a shame. I wanted to watch Rafa in Hamburg, but I didn’t have time. And since Hamburg has been demoted it’s unlikely that Rafa will come again 🙁
I watched some of the all time greats live when I was living in New York and later when the year end championship was in Hannover for a couple of years. I watched Becker against Sampras on indoor hardcourt which was a sight to behold.
It’s so different to watch live tennis. The speed, force and precision is awe inspiring.
Littlefoot…Oh!…yeah,it’s a shame indeed!..Hey,don’t worry ,maybe u can plan it to watch him next year…but,u better hurry to make a plan lilltefoot…time running so fast for our rafa…I hope one day your wish will come true littlefoot!…Oh!We have to find a shooting star!..and make a wish!!
MA,
Good stuff! I don’t know how Rafa will do at Wimby. But it’s good to know that he can give Murray a ton for his money. I think that the North American summer hard court season could be important. Rafa is capable of doing well there as we all remember 2013! ?
I am just going to watch and see what happens at Wimby! Should be exciting!
Rafa can give Murray a RUN for his money! *
Nny!…Me too Nny!…but let’s check out what Todd Woodbridge say about this…http://www.tennisworldusa.org/news/news/Rafael_Nadal/44464/rafa-nadal-skipping-queen-s-will-make-it-harder-for-his-wimbledon-chances/
But then before Rome master’s Todd also said that Rafa might be overplaying and fatigue come FO considering his heavy schedule on clay…and Rafa proved him wrong big time!..So,i guess we never know about this thing…i can’t wait to read what Rafa going to say after he trained on lawn court in mallorca…hope he will give us a good news about his knees…
My feeling is: if Rafa does well at Wimbledon and stays ahead of Murray there and becomes no.1, chances are he will hold on to the no.1 ranking to be the YE no.1.
Rafa can play well on the HCs when he’s playing with aggression and confidence; he has to stay fit and healthy though.
The key to No 1 is certainly that Rafa manages to do well at Wimby – something which hasn’t happened for years. If he manages to turn that trend around, anything is possible.
My personal hunch is that Roger is better equipped to handle the rest of the season. But we saw just yesterday that even Roger isn’t fail proof. And just as Rafa, he needs to stay healthy, too.
It’s a bit surreal that two thirtysomethings are in the best position for winning the race for No 1. Actually, all of the top 5 are over thirty now! Has that ever happened before???
And three of the four slams have been won by players over thirty. Only Wimby was won by Andy last year, when he was still 29. It really shows that the young generation still didn’t manage to create a lasting impact.
Fed will be in worse physical conditions than Rafa if Fed plays Halle, followed by Wimbledon, Canada, Cincy, USO, Shanghai, Basel, Paris and London!
My guess is Fed will skip Canada, and Paris after playing Basel (they’re B2B events) to focus on WTF. Canada is three weeks from Wimbledon this year, I doubt Fed will play two HC masters B2B just before the USO, unless he loses early at Wimbledon. Fed has to win both Wimbledon and USO to have a chance to overtake Rafa in the race, possible but unlikely imo.
Djoko and Murray, their race points are too far behind Rafa’s now, and I doubt either of them will sweep up every event from now on to become no.1. Stan is 3775 race points behind Rafa now, I doubt he’s consistently good enough to gather more points than Rafa to overtake him. Thiem too, and Thiem is better on clay than on the HCs, so I doubt Thiem can overtake Rafa.
The other players, they are too far behind in the race to catch up with Rafa. As I said, Rafa has to stay fit and healthy, plays well with confidence and aggression, and he’s prime for the pole position and holding on to it till the year end at least if not beyond.
It’s interesting. My guess is that Federer will focus on the majors from here on out and only play other events as preparation. He does not need a lot of match play to reach his best level. If he does win Wimbly and USO he will be the YE 1 anyway.
Rafa likes to play and does need match play to reach his best levels. Otoh it’s clear that he is going to listen to his body and his doctors and rest as needed.
Stan? Who knows? If he does well at Wimbly and repeats at the USO? He’d still need to do well at other events and historically he doesn’t.
Djokovic is a total mystery to me. He could recover his form, but will he?
My guess is that Murray’s well on the way back and motivated. At the end of the year, it’s not about defending points, it’s about what you’ve won – and who’s won the rest.
Well, we will see. My feeling is that fans from both players tend to count eggs from chicken who haven’t even hatched, yet. We tend to assume that Rafa and Roger will continue to do well for the rest of the season. But that is not a given at all.
As far as Roger is concerned: that he skipped the whole clay season shows IMO that his main goal isn’t to regain the year-end No 1 position. After having won the AO he probably wants to boost his total slam count (and maybe his head-to-head with Rafa) and put some distance between himself, Rafa and Novak in order to settle the Goat question once and for all. And since he knew full well that he had no chance whatsoever to win the FO,he skipped the clay season – even if that will cost him potentially the No 1 position – in order to have a better shot at the remaining two slams, but especially at Wimby. And if he really manages to win one of the last two slams he still has an excellent chance to regain the No 1 position as a by-product.
While the other contenders are probably too far behind in the overall race, they have an important role nevertheless. Especially Andy, because I think he’s slowly rediscovering his mojo.
Agreed. I think Fed wands to increase his slam count and reduce his h2h deficit vs Nadal with the ultimate goal of cementing his GOAT status by the general populace/media.
It would have been counter productive in this sense to have played the clay season because he would have risked his health, h2h record vs Rafa and his chances to Win one or both of the last two slams of the year.
What makes me laugh is that a lot of Fed fans were so sure that Federer will sweep Nadal off the court even on clay just because he has a bigger racket now!!!
I hope they learnt a lesson when they the game’s most powerful SHBH being totally at the mercy of Rafa’s fearhand!
I think Fed won 3 in a row this year because of two factors: a)Fed threw caution to the winds and played aggressively like somebody who has nothing to lose. This took Rafa by surprise because all top ranked players usually play high percentage tennis. Fed started doing this when he was a break down in the 5th at AO. (b) Rafa’s forehand wasn’t back at its lethal best.
Yes, that’s how i see it, too.
Interestingly the fedophile journos like Jon Wertheim now repeat like a mantra how important that 5th set at the AO was for the Goat question, because if Rafa had won it, then it would be now 17 vs 16, which is practically meaningless, and Rafa would’ve the double career slam. Wertheim is right from a formal point of view. And yet – it demonstrates also that the Goat debate is absurd to a certain degree: how can just one deciding set in a slam final which could’ve gone either way, decide the Goat question?
Right now Roger is in front, but since Rafa managed to win another slam, too, he kept the quest open. And while Roger managed to better the head-to-head, Rafa had the more rounded season so far. Novak is the real loser as far as his own Goat quest is concerned.
Mary I think it comes down to Federer being traditionally faster to return to form after time off (for any reason) vs Rafa. So he was just in better form at that point in time.
Rafa has more inertia than federer, but given time Rafa has greater momentum and when the two of them are at their best, advantage Rafa.
Hawkeye, yes, Roger was a bit quicker in his return to form. And he had the advantage of meeting Rafa on hardcourt, which favored him – especially since the AO court had been made faster this year,maybe for Roger or Nick Kyrgios,who knows?
Bug now Rafa has the momentum on his side. The rest of the season will be really interesting,if Rafa and Roger stay healthy.
Here’s an interesting link btw:
http://www.openerarankings.com/Home?Race=3
It’s real time ranking race to Wimby, which is important for the seeding.
littlefoot says AT 1:41 PM:”…how can just one deciding set in a slam final which could’ve gone either way, decide the Goat question?”
.
One regular poster on the GS did the same. LOL
Lol,augusta, that might’ve been me after the AO final! Touche!
But at the time it was a valid pov IMO. The way I see it, the situation shifted again, though, because of Rafa’s win at RG. Rafa managed to keep the question open for now. But Jon Wertheim insisted a couple of days ago AFTER Rafa’s win at the FO that the fifth set of the AO was the most important fifth set ever played in tennis history, because it decided the GOAT question. That’s where I disagree with him.
littlefoot (AT 2:51 PM),
Not you.
“And he had the advantage of meeting Rafa on hardcourt, which favored him”
Disagree. Indoors is where Fed has the advantage.
Prior to this year, Rafa was a career 8-2 vs Fed on outdoor hard courts (including 2-0 in slams). His only losses were when he was just 18 and lost to Fed in five sets in Miami, when in the third set, Fed hit a shot long that was called good that would have given Rafa 0-40 and three chances to break and serve for the title. Some posters would say Federer should have given the point to Rafa (theoretically because same posters believe that Rafa should have given a point to Goffin). The other loss was a cold dark night in Indian Wells – conditions that can impact Rafa’s “good feelings”.
Typically, Rafa owns Fed on hard courts and clay. No significant difference between them on grass when both are at their best IMO.
I think when Rafa is reasonably healthy and in form he is the best among the big 4 on US Open hard courts. He has beaten Muzz everytime, he lost to Djok 1 out of 3 times in finals and that one time was in 2011 when Rafa had to play back to back matches whereas Djok had one day off between matches. Also Rafa had burnt his fingers and he wasn’t in top condition even otherwise as he had cramps in his press conference. He hasn’t yet played Fed at USO but looking at his record against Fed on outdoor hard courts, it is likely that he will beat Fed. The disquieting thing is that Arthur Ashe now has a roof so if it is raining when Rafa plays against any of the other 3, he may lose under the “indoor” conditions.
Yes, Hawkeye, you’re right insofar as Rafanhas also beaten Fed on outdoor hardcourts often enough. But somehow the stars were aligned against Rafa this year.
At the AO it may have been because the court was playing faster than in previous years. That was a clear advantage for Fed. Then Rafa had the hard semi against Dimi and of course Fed played really well and high risk tennis when it mattered in the 5th set. And the outcome of that match might well have had an impact upon their next two meetings at IW and Miami.
We will see how it goes when they meet again this season. I think even without a direct win against Fed the momentum might’ve shifted again in favor of Rafa.
beaten Muzz from 2010. I have not verified Rafa’s record before that. But Rafa’s expertize is underestimated. He won Olympic gold on a hard court. Even in 2016, but for his wrist, I am sure he would have done better though I am not sure he would have beaten Muzz who seemed in awesome form.
Yeah, I agree the fast courts were done solely to help Fed get to the final, Rafa actually likes fast conditions. It’s where he does best vs Nole on hard courts for example.
I don’t think it was a big factor vs Rafa in AO especially given his next two losses to Fed in IW and Miami. He was still without sufficient confidence.
Rafa actually did much better than I thought he would in Australia after such a long layoff. I would have been satisfied with QF or better. Took Rafa longer to get going in 2013 losing to Zeballos and struggling to beat guys like Berlocq and Alund all on clay. Really didn’t find his form until IW.
Even not at his best, he was up a break in the fifth set in Australia despite inconsistencies throughout the match on his part but he lacked the confidence I feel to protect his break.
He has that confidence back in my opinion. And that’s what matters most.
IMO, Muzz took advantage of a mini Weak Era.
This Rafa would have handled him I believe.
Rafa was 3-1 on outdoor hard courts vs Murray prior to 2010 (0-1 indoors).
Rafa had to retire due to injury vs Murray at AO in 2010. He’s 3-2 on hc vs Murray since (losses in Tokyo 2011 and Canada 2010).
VR – Stan doesn’t like to take the ball early. He also chips most of his returns. Roger takes big cuts at returns and takes the ball early well. So Stan getting wrecked by Rafa isn’t a great measuring stick for what would happen to Roger and his SHBH. I think the argument that Fed would have solid chance against Rafa with the bigger racket on clay is a feasible argument but there isn’t a way of knowing if it is true. I doubt anyone on this site said Fed would “sweep Nadal off the court on clay” but if so that’s quite far fetched.
Sorry I mean there is a way of knowing because we will know if they play on clay but obviously that didn’t happen this season.
All Rafa has to do to finish No. 1 is to stay healthy.
He has a 3000 pt lead in the Race over Federer and almost 4000+ over the rest.
It is, as they say, on his racquet.
#GOAT
Littlefoot,
Thanks for posting that link with the rankings race. I don’t understand the numbers on the right hand side. Do you know what they mean?
NNY, I think they indicate the number of points earned at Wimby two years ago. If you look at Novak’s numbers: he has 2000 in that column, because he won two years ago. It seems a long time ago, but the Wimby points won two years ago count for the seeding this year. Novak therefore might be second seed this year although he hasn’t done much lately. Rafa’s points on the other hand are almost exclusively his true ranking points. Since he doesn’t play a warm-up he has no chance to overtake Novak in the Wimby race.
NNY, the number in the very right column is just the sum of all points which matter for the Wimby seeding of a player. That’s all. and has the most. therefore he will definitely be the No 1 seed. It surprised me that Novak is still No 2, but that’s the way it works. Rafa could’ve overtaken him by winning a few matches in Queens. It will be interesting how Wawa and Roger fare in Queens and if they manage to better their seeding.
In all likelihood, doesn’t really matter if Fed passes Rafa in Wimby seedings because either way, barring a Queens title for Wawrinka, Fedal will be 3-4 and can’t meet until the final. There is no advantage between 3rd and 4th seed.
However if Wawrinka DID win Queens (very unlikely) and Federer wins Halle (foregone conclusion).
Rafa would drop to No. 5 seed and could conceivably have to play Federer, Djokovic and Murray in succession to win Wimbledon.
Yeah, I thought the same: No 3 or No 4 seeding doesn’t make a big difference for Rafa. No 5 could spell trouble, though. But while I assume until proven otherwise that Roger will win Halle, I don’t think that Wawa will win Queens. Too many strong grass court players there.
Hawkeye, if I look at the race to Wimby, then Wawa, and Roger for that matter, cannot overtake Rafa, even if he wins Queens. Rafa has over 7000 points in the race to Wimby while Wawa has 6400 and a few. He can never get above 7000, even if he could theoretically add 500 by winning Queens. If the real life ranking from my link is correct, then Rafa’s No 3 seed is secure. However, Roger could be stuck with the No 5 seed if he doesn’t win Halle or if Wawa wins Queens. In this case Roger and Rafa could end up in the same half or even quarter at Wimby after all. Maybe, we should wish Roger good luck for Halle…
Roger’s loss at Stuttgard could’ve a greater impact on the seeding than we thought if Stan has a good showing at Queens. So much for the theory that Roger gifted Tommy Haas the win! In order to secure the No 4 seeding Roger needs to do well in Halle and Stan needs to do poorly at Queens. It’s all a bit crazy and complicated this year.
If we factor in a hypothetical rigging team and their hypothetical goals, my head starts to spin, lol!
Pre-Wimby 2017 grass points count double so Federer and Wawrinka can add 1000 points with title wins next week.
Yes, ok, that does make more sense seeding wise. So, all is possible, and Rafa, Wawa and Roger can end up as No 3,4 or 5, depending on how Roger and Wawa play at Queens and Halle.
We should hope that Roger plays well and that Wawa doesn’t.
In the grass seeding formula, if Wawa wins Queen’s, he gains 1000 points because the warm up points will appear twice, once in the ranking points and another in the grass points in the last one year.
I may well be beating this to death. But I’m very intrigued by the Wimby seeding conundrum now. Rogers loss in Stuttgart definitely cost him the No 2 seed, which he could’ve snatched away from Novak if he had only beaten Tommy Haas and then won Halle. Even if he wins Halle now, he cannot catch the Djoker. He will miss him by 10 measly points! However, Wawa could theoretically become the No 2 seed if he wins Queens…
But I’m sure Team Rafa has looked at the consequences of pulling out of Queens as well. And they may also have concluded that a Wawa win is unlikely.
Since we have atm no idea how anybody of the top 5 is going to play on grass, we can’t even know how exactly the seeding and the subsequent draw will impact the tournament. For example: will it be good or bad to be in Novak’s quarter?
Yeah, that’s the way I’m looking at it. Too many unknowns.
Ideally, I just want Rafa to be in the Top 4 seeds and would prefer that Fedal be in opposite halves (and to avoid big hitters like Kyrgios, Raonic, Brown, Isner, Ivo, etc.).
I also would like Fedal to be in opposite halfs. I certainly wouldn’t want them to meet in the quarters.
But right now I don’t care overmuch where the Djoker ends up, although he might gather some steam – who knows?
For Rafa the biggest worry of the first week are the big hitters anyway. And traditionally they have always been in Rafa’s path in the last few years – and we know that Wimby honors traditions, lol… 😉
Fed didn’t gift the Haas match littlefoot. He just most likely didn’t put max effort in because it is a small tournament and it is one of his good friend Haas’ very last events and at his home court. Also Fed probably isn’t even thinking about the seeding. He knows if he plays his best tennis at Wimbledon he can beat anybody there.
What I like about the whole thing is that the rigging team won’t find it easy to produce the ideal draw. Unlike in other slams, Wimbly team has to give some consideration to Muzz though I guess if push comes to shove, they will ditch their local boy.
Incidentally, I would prefer to have Rafa in Fed’s half.
Of course we can expect the big hitters to be in Rafa’s path as he is a threat to both Fed and Muzz!
Most probable seeding
1. Muzz
2 Djok
3 and 4. Fed and Rafa in some order depending on Fed’s Halle results
5. Wawa
So my prediction, Fed will prefer the Djok half.
I have to say, regarding all this speculation about seeding, I don’t think these guys -and their teams- care that much. They’re worried about winning the match in front of them, not looking ahead to the SF. Everyone knows how easily upsets can happen on grass, especially first week. And Rafa hasn’t made it into the second week in years. I am sure his first through ninth goal is getting some rest, not getting injured, and staying healthy for rest of the season. Maybe 10th is securing a high seed for Wimby. To be honest, I won’t be that surprised if he pulls out of the tournament.
Joe Smith, the top players and their teams DO worry about the seeding to a certain extent, even if their imminent worry is about getting through the first opponents. I remember that players complained about the difficulty they may run into if they didn’t manage to secure a top seeding anymore for some reason. But maybe we fans worry excessively, lol!
As to Rafa pulling out of Wimby: yes, the withdrawal from Queens could mean that indeed something isn’t quite ok. But I would be very surprised if Rafa pulls out of Wimby just like that. He loves the tournament, even if he hasn’t done well there in the last few years. And at least during RG he has been in top form. Why should he then pull out of Wimby? The conditions may never be as favorable again for him, and he has only a limited amount of time left in his career.
Nole might play Eastbourne….
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2017/06/djokovic-considering-playing-eastbourne-week-wimbledon/66915/
As long as he remains injury free, thats fine by me, as a fan im not overly concerned about the number 1 raking, but thats just me ….
I agree. Would be nice if he could regain the No 1 position. But I’m not overly concerned by this. For now it’s great that he finally managed to win another slam in an absolutely dominant fashion and that he seems to be a steady contender again, and not only on clay.
I am trying not to hope for too much but his form at RG was awe inspiring!
#GOAT
Vamosrafa
Been meaning to ask you how did your exam go? It was kind of Rfa to dispose of his opponent so quickly to allow you to get back to your studying 😉
loll thanks a lot for asking Ed! I had two exams. One went good, the other not so much. The one that didn’t go well was the day after the final lol.
Yes, rafa was kind enough to dispose of his opponent in quick time but it did keep me distracted 😉
Anyway, hoping I will clear them both 🙂
Hope all is well with you.
May I ask, VR, what kind of exams you’re learning for? Hopefully it will all work out for you!
This phase in life is so far behind me – and yet, sometimes I dream that I have to do it all over again, lol! It makes for a nice wake-up, though 😉
Yeah VR…i’ve been meaning to ask u about your exams for 2 or 3 days now..but my finger’s always typing something else!!..Hopefully the month of Ramadhan will bring u luck and joy VR…Oh!i got something for u on Non tennis VR!…Hope u will like it!…
Thanks MA.hoping and praying Ramazan will bring good fortune. I will check out the non tennis page
Hey littlefoot,
I work in the financial services for Ernst & Young here in London but we are also studying toward the CA ( Chartered Accountancy)
🙂
Thanks VR, and good luck!
Will you visit Wimbledon?
Hi vr, if you pass these exams do you get your CA or are there more levels?
@Littlefoot, I do intend to visit Wimbledon 🙂 I would have gone to Queens and probably gotten a media pass from Ricky but Rafa’s not going there so makes it quite less likely now haha..
@Mary, If I pass these ones, I will only be left with a case study which will take place in November! So not much left
The goat debate has been REALLY gathering steam this season. Who would’ve thought so one year ago? We were not discussing if but when Novak would catch up. We even assumed that it could happen during the 2016 season, that he would equal Rafa’s slam count, and close the gap between him and Roger considerably,lol!
But we shouldn’t totally forget about Novak IMO. I doubt that he will ever become again the slam-winning machine he was in the past few years. He’s over thirty now, too, and the young guns WILL start winning slams eventually. But who says that he will never ever win a slam again? Such a claim would be very foolish. Who’s more likely to win three more slams – Rafa or Novak? Right now we rafafans are on Cloud Ten and feel he can do anything, but the picture might change very quickly again. Novak might rediscover his mojo as we speak, and Rafa might pick up another injury, and talk about Novak the Goat might start again.
As it is, each of the Big Three, have done great and unique things which distinguish them from the others: Novak really managed to hold all four slams at the same time, Rafa won RG a whopping ten times and Roger leads in the overall slam count and in weeks as No 1. And they all managed to do this while the others are active. That is the true mind boggling thing – but Roger definitely had a head start and accumulated some records while the other goats were not active, yet. He had the meadow for himself. That’s of course not his fault. But it needs to be considered nonetheless, as the article points out.
My comment was aimed at Hawkeye’s article below. Somehow it ended up in the wrong thread..
Not meaning to weigh in on tennis GOAT, but thank-you, littlefoot, for bringing up Novak.
I never forget about Nole. Hope springs eternal for him. He just turned 30. It’s not time to write him off yet, I don’t think. He could be permanently burnt out or he could put together another winning streak – physically he could be good for many years to come. His motivation and desire though is in question.
rc!..I never write off Novak…He’s too great a champion to fade away just like that..2 years ago i predicted on TX that Novak will win 2 slams in 2016..and he will stop for a while..and i predicted again that before he retires he will once again win 2 slam[at least]…
For me,what Novak go through atm is that he drained..physically and mentally..he’s already said that after won FO last year,he felt empty..so,he needs time to fill that emptiness back..how long?Not sure..Rafa took 3 years to overcome his obstacles..i guess Novak will take less time than that considering he’s not injured much like Rafa…u know rc?Reading some of the comments from Novak fans makes me really sad…they treat Novak like a machine..they want Novak winning all the time…and Novak,just want to be a normal human being atm…is it too much to ask?
I know Nadal is the darling of the media at this moment, but this is one of the best articles I have read for a long time.
https://in.news.yahoo.com/rafael-nadal-flesh-blood-hero-032208780.html
This one is even better IMHO….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2017/06/15/rafael-nadal-not-roger-federer-greatest-ever/
#RafaGOAT
#RITB
My thoughts about the article ended up in the previous thread about VR’s exams for some reason…
No surprise, but I don’t agree. Main factor in any comparison of this sort should be performance in tournaments, with biggest tournaments counted most. By that measure, Fed narrowly better at this time, though may change, perhaps even this year. By that widely agreed upon measure, I adapt my previous claim, which maybe this time will garner general approval:
Federer clearly better than Nadal off clay (17 slams, 6 WTF, 18 masters vs. 5 slams, 0 WTF, 8 masters).
Nadal (even more) clearly better than Federer on clay (10 slams, 22 masters vs, 1 slam, 2 masters).
Well, the whole point of the writer’s POV is that there is much more to the story than just title count which has always been my point, along with players like Agassi and Laver for instance.
The article clearly points out Fed’s advantage prior to the arrival of the Gold Era 2008 onwards.
Yes Rafa is the undisputed best on clay ever and holds a huge advantage on clay over everybody, not just Federer.
However, Federer is arguably not even best of all time on hard courts.
Djokovic is six years younger than Federer and is just two hard court slam titles behind Federer’s 10. Djokovic has won 8 of 25 HC slams played for 32% compared to Federer who has won 29% of his HC slams and I believe Djokovic has played in a tougher era.
Djokovic has 22 hard court Masters titles out of 66 events played for a success rate of33.3%!
Federer, by comparison is just 24%,
Nor is Fed best arguably the best ever when you look at WTF. Yes he has 6 titles but he’s played that event 14 years for a success rate of just 42.9% which is lower than Djokovic with 5 titles of 10 years played for 50% win rate.
Even Sampras had a better conversion rate at WTF than Fed winning 5 of 11 years (45.5%).
Speaking of Sampras, he won seven Wimbledon titles of 14 played (50%). Federer won seven Wimbledon titles in 18 tries (38.9%).
So I think:
Djokovic is the best ever HC player.
Sampras is the best ever grass court player.
Rafa is the best ever clay court player and best ever period.
Federer is the second best player of all time.
I guess that’s the least controversial thing that most here having a GOAT opinion can agree on (including myself, RITB, Mary, Joe, Benny, Scoot D, abhirf, RITB – sorry for anyone I left out).
Federer is one of the top 2 players of all time.
Oh, and last but not least Allison. Sorry Allison.
What are you referring to as the least controversial thing that all can agree on? Is it my claims above? I can’t imagine anyone would deny either of those, whereas someone might deny Nadal (or Federer) a place in the top 2.
I think there are just as few that would disagree with my statement than would disagree with yours.
And you twisted my statement.
I just think if you are going to look at different surfaces you should look at them individually which is what I did.
The writer puts their respective achievements overall in context.
The devil is in the details.
I was honestly unsure what you meant was something we all agree on. Is it that Federer is one of the top 2 of all time? If so, I was unaware that everyone on your list agrees with that.
Apologies if I twisted your words. Not sure how I did but I didn’t mean to.
Certainly agree that HC comparison between Fed and Nole is close and grass comparison between Fed and Sampras is very close.
To me Sampras’ 7 Wimbledon titles are tougher than Fed’s because they’re won on fast grass. On fast grass even Sampras was susceptible to big servers even though he himself is also a big (and great) server.
Even if Fed retired immediately after winning his last Wimbledon title in 2012, he would still be 7/8 in Wimbledon finals, so he’s still slightly worse off than Sampras’ 7/7 in finals.
Fed made more finals because he could sustain his level on grass longer than Sampras did, i.e. his longevity comes into play. But, Sampras had his illness (thalassemia minor) and so he retired at age 31. Sampras didn’t make the final after 2000.
All great points LS.
I was going to bring up court speed in a follow up post so thanks for that.
And great observation on the 7/8 thingy (read hard g please ).
Pct. of finals won not as important as pct. of tournaments won. Hawkeye’s original point was about the latter (7/14) for Sampras, which Fed was at after 2012. My point was simply that Fed can’t be marked down for making two finals and a SF after that point. To the contrary, it enhances his record.
This point is independent of course of any claims about strength of competition, etc.
Independent of competition I’d agree. His results dropped significantly with the arrival of the Big Four.
I’ve also said several times before that Federer’s greatness has as much to do with unmatched longevity as it does his obviously rare talent.
Hakweye, what you say makes a lot of sense. And I am not trying to depict Federer as GOAT not matter what. But just quickly let’s consider this factor: You said Sampras won seven Wimbledon titles of 14 played (50%). Federer won seven Wimbledon titles in 18 tries (38.9%). Let’s suppose Sampras played 4 more Wimbledons and didn’t win any tile, then his % would have dropped to that of Fed. I mean Federer’s % are lower than Nole’s on HC and Samprass on grass, but that’s relative. It is highly expected that Nole’s % will only fall, although theoritically everything is possible. We’ll have a much clearer picture after the big 4 retire. As I said many times, longevity it’s not to be taken for granted. It’s very hard to be in top after 30 and still keep your hardly earned % at a respectable level.
Do I think Fed is the GOAT? Not exaclty. That’s a limiting, flawed, incomplete and very narrow view. The main reason is that GOAT means something different for every person. Words are symbols and they are interpreted in multiple ways, depending on someone’s past experiences, values, principles etc. Agree with all those who say we should have a top5/top 10 best tennis players ever and enjoy their creation.
I agree that GOAT is subjective opinion. Always have maintained that.
i feel Sampras was the better grass player because Feds first five Wimbledon titles were during what many including the writer of the article was a relatively weak era.
But I don’t see the point of splitting out the surfaces when determining GOAT anyways.
I was simply countering Joes POV.
I think a comparison between Federer and Sampras at Wimbledon serves nicely to illustrate my point that overall tournament performance is the main criterion when comparing overall greatness.
Federer and Sampras are tied with 7 Wimby titles apiece. However, Sampras won every final he made there, whereas Federer has made 10 finals. His 3 losses, of course, were to Rafa (2008) and Nole (2014, 2015). The first two of those matches went 5 sets and are considered two of the greatest Wimby finals ever played. In my book, Roger gets the grass nod over Sampras for those 3 extra finals. Certainly it makes no sense to say they count for nothing in the comparison. Making it to the final of a GS, only to lose a close match to an all-time great, counts for a lot.
This data is also relevant to winning pct. As Eugene notes, had Roger retired after his 2012 win, he would be equal with Sampras in terms of Wimby title pct. Are we to lower Roger’s comparative ranking against Sampras because he managed to make 2 finals (and 1 SF) at the ages of 32-34? That makes no sense.
An interesting read by someone who agrees that Sampras > Federer on grass, discussing the significance of the slower Wimby courts for Federer’s career:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1240547-roger-federer-is-he-greater-on-wimbledon-grass-than-pete-sampras
Bleacherreport is just biased fan bloggers.
Yes he made finals but his first five consecutive titles were during a questionable period of competition.
So yeah Sampras for me on grass still stands over Federer.
Eugene, if Sampras could play for another four years (assuming good health), who knows he may win one more Wimbledon?
As I’ve mentioned in my post just before this, Sampras suffered from thalassemia (minor) and so he could not play top level tennis for any longer and had to retire at age 31.
Fed is 7/8 in finals up to his Wimbledon title no.7 in 2012, so he wasnt at 100% success rate in Wimbledon finals, unlike Sampras.
Want to relive the entire turmoil of the past 3 years with Rafa finally rising like a Phoenix from the ashes…enjoy the video..
https://youtu.be/Zm52QC4-WdI
H2H stats between the Big 4:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCbxlqBVYAAohnC.jpg
Fist pump! ?
Fist pump! ?
That’s kinda like a Big Four mini ELO that Joe would probably appreciate.
To Joe,kevin,Eugene,Benny…U guys must be pleased to read this article…While Nny,Hawks,littlefoot and other rafans..there’s also some Rafa news in this…
http://www.tennisworldusa.org/news/news/Rafael_Nadal/44451/toni-nadal-federer-is-the-goat-he-is-favourite-to-win-wimbledon-title-/
Completely respect Toni’s humble expression to reporter on GOAT.
Toni is not one to show conceit.
Toni has always said Fed is the GOAT. I suspect he truly believes this and also he wants to take pressure away from Rafa.
Needless to say, I disagree with Uncle Toni on this, Rafa is the GOAT.
Having said this, Uncle T is himself the GOAT of coaches. No coach, dead or alive, rivals Uncle T’s achievements as coach. Even with his modesty, he would have a hard time disputing that.
RITB 3.0 (AT 2:05 PM),
Rafa has said that R.Laver is GOAT.
Interview with Rafa in Basel in October 2014.
Tages-Anzeiger, October 20, 2014: ¤¤Roger and I get along, but we are not friends.
Question: “Do you follow the debate as to who the greatest tennis player is? You, Federer or someone from the past? What is your view?”
RAFA: “It’s difficult to speculate as long as our careers are not yet completed. But in my opinion there much evidence that Rod Laver is the best in history. He won the calendar Grand Slam, joined the pros and won the Grand Slam again after a long break. That’s great. If he had not turned pro, he would certainly have won more majors than me and probably more than Roger as well. Laver must definitely be considered in this discussion. Roger has the most Grand Slams titles and broken many records, he is certainly one of them.” ¤¤
(Translated from German by Chris Boardman)
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/tennis/Roger-und-ich-verstehen-uns-sind-aber-keine-Freunde/story/11831419
Thanks Gussie. I respect Rafa’s opinion and I believe he truly believes that. I think he also believes he is not yet at Fed’s level in terms of achievements.
And this one too guys!…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2017/06/16/tennis-debate-readers-views-whether-rafael-nadal-roger-federer/
As for me,i’d prefer the opinion of Yakubo Jones at the end of the article…it’s really not fair to single out who’s the GOAT and who’s not…every each one of them[GOAT contender’s] has their own greatness…
MA,
I happen to agree with you regarding the GOAT issue. Just to be clear, I have no problem with those who choose to believe in this concept. That is their prerogative.
For myself, I choose to believe that a player can only be the greatest in their own era. That seems to be the fairest way to assess the players through the generations. Rod Laver seems to get short shrift because he played in the 60’s when tennis only had clay and grass surfaces, along with indoor wood courts. He also played at a time when the sport was in the midst of a period when there was conflict over amateur versus pro tennis. It was s real struggle for those who wanted tennis to be a professional sport to try to effect change. Players like Laver who did join the pro ranks were penalized by not being allowed to play in certain slams and tournaments. Some of Laver’s wins are not included in the official record. But he changed the game with his lefty topspin and played the best of the best. The only player to win the calendar grand slam in the open era. He did it twice, first on 1962. It is significant in that none of his peers were able to go it. So no. After that there were no hard courts back then, because it was still a singular achievement.
That’s why I think the great champions deserve recognition for their contributions to the sport. It may be human nature to edbtvto anoint one player as GOAT, but in my opinion it deprives the greats from the past of the true recognition and acknowledgment of their achievements.
Autocorrect strikes again! I try to correct as I go along, but still miss things. I meant to say that Laver did the calendar grand slam and even though it was only on surfaces like clay and grass and there were no hard courts back then, it was still a singular achievement because none of peers were able to do it. If it was easy even back then, someone else would have done it.
Nny!!…Very much agree with u!!Can u imagine Nny if Laver’s lost years never existed?I mean he’s not enter a single majors for 5 years..and he still in his prime at that time?Roughly we can say that he maybe will surpassed Roger and Rafa’s slam in that 5 years if he were allowed to play…
So,to me it’s pretty disrespectful to Laver if we’re only excited debating between Rog and Rafa..but then everybody is entitled to their opinion..I just wish that Laver’s name will always came up everytime we discuss about The GOAT..because he’s certainly one of them…