Novak Djokovic won his 17th consecutive match and captured a second straight title on the Asian Swing by rolling over Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 6-2, 6-4 in the final of the Shanghai Rolex Masters on Sunday. Djokovic, whose current streak also includes titles at the U.S. Open and in Beijing, needed just one hour and 18 minutes to prevail.
Djokovic dropped serve once in the first set but more than made up for that hiccup with three victorious return games.
A more competitive second set saw Tsonga kick things off with four consecutive holds. The Frenchman, however, never had any prayer against his opponent’s serve. In fact, Tsonga won only a single point in five return games. A double-fault by the underdog on break point at 4-4, ad-out proved to be decisive.
Highlights:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2xIYR8gyv4]
“Today the key was to get as many serves back into play to Jo because he has one of the biggest serves in the game,” Djokovic assessed. “He has shown that in the second set, with some break points early in the set. He came up with some aces, some big serves.
“Generally, I felt always in control of the match. I felt like I’ve done everything right. I’ve won many of my service games very comfortably. I didn’t allow him to get into the rhythm, get into the match. Today’s match, and overall the tournament, it’s gone incredibly well for me.”
[tweet https://twitter.com/SHRolexMasters/status/655723508559798272]
The week still went extremely well for Tsonga, who prevailed in consecutive three-setters over Albert Ramos-Vinolas, Kevin Anderson, and Rafael Nadal.
“I’m very satisfied,” the runner-up assured. “To come back at your best level, it’s always a long process. I’m happy today to be back really close to the top 10. Like I said just before, it gave me energy to continue to work hard and try to achieve other good things.”
Tsonga is going to surge six spots to No. 9 in the race to the World Tour Finals. That would put him as the first alternate, which will be especially important if Andy Murray follows through with his threat to skip it and prepare for the Davis Cup final on clay in Belgium.
[polldaddy poll=9133278]
nats original argument was that one of the younger set may challenge Djoko for slams and Kyrgios is the most promising. To support this argument she got sufficiently sidetracked into unwittingly doubly discounting Rafa by claiming that he cannot beat Djoko unless he is 100% and he was beaten by Kyrgios when at 100%!
I am inclined to think that Rafa displayed some of his best tennis in that 2014 final versus Novak…statements that Rafa was not at his best and still was able to beat Novak are rather strange to me…anything is possible though…Nole’s fans OTOH claim that Novak was not at his100% in that match and that was mainly why Rafa was able to beat him…However, I think Rafa played great tennis and Novak was just defeated…and it happened in four sets which is accomplishment on its own…Novak certainly was fit and in great form since he went on to beat Fed for the Wimby trophy…
Rafa on grass is not the same as Rafa on clay…he seems vulnerable on grass and we know by now that even if healthy he may end up losing…it may appear to be the back issue or the confidence issue or anything else but the fact is he keeps losing to lower ranked players on grass…BTW beating three players in 2014 was his best record in three years..in 2013 he lost to Darcis (ranked 135) in the Round of 128 and in 2012 he lost to Rosol (ranked 100) in the Round 64…this is why I think it was not only Rafa’s back issue but Nick’s tennis which did the damage…
natashao2013 says:
October 22, 2015 at 2:41 pm.
—Rafa on grass is not the same as Rafa on clay…he seems vulnerable on grass and we know by now that even if healthy he may end up losing…—
===
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Listen to Rafa.
An interview in Cincinnati on August 14, 2013:
RAFAEL NADAL: “My knee is healed, is working well for the moment. I felt more trouble on grass because the movements are less stable and I need to play lower than in the rest of the surfaces.”
That was 2013.
On the contrary, this is what Nadal said this year about his condition at Wimbledon in 2014.
“Let’s see if I am able to compete well then at Wimbledon. I’m so happy to be here, you know. Healthy, that’s the most important thing. Last year I was better, after 2012 and ’13, that I couldn’t play well here. Too many problems with my knees.
He couldn’t play well in 2012 and 2013 but said that he was better in 2014 and 2015.
He was healthy according to him in 2014 and 2015 but lost to similarly styled aggressive hard serving players.
After losing to Kyrgios, Nadal said the following.
“The thing is this surface, when you have an opponent that he decides to serve and to hit every ball very strong, you are in trouble.
So, in general, talking about what you need to win in this surface, he did the things better than me.
Oh, I am satisfied the way that I played this Wimbledon. Is true that my draw was not the best one. All the matches were uncomfortable against players that didn’t give you the opportunity to play a lot.
I fighted until the end in every single match. I was able to play some good tennis on this surface. That’s something that I was not able to do in the last two years.
But that’s the tennis. That’s the sport in this surface. I felt in a way I am even not angry today because I feel that I lost the match losing only one time my serve during the whole match. I created my opportunities.
But I was not able to read his serve during the whole match. At the end on grass, the resume is that. I was not able to read his serve. I was not able to put enough returns inside. We had one break each.
In the tiebreak he was able to serve better than me. So that’s an advantage. I could serve better on the tiebreaks. But 5‑All in the second set in the tiebreak, second serve, net, inside for him, second serve big. Then he repeat the second serve with 140 miles the second serve.
You know, that’s happens when you have nothing to lose. You can play that way. Players who really play for being in the last rounds, think about win the titles, it’s not easy to create the second serve 114 5‑All in the tiebreak, but that’s what happened today.
Congratulations to him. For me, beach (smiling). For me, I going to go to the beach in Mallorca.
I try my best, as always I do when my physical performance give me the chance to try my best. Last two years I didn’t have that chance to try my best because my knee was not right to compete here.
But this year I felt the knee was right to compete here. I competed. I think I competed well. Was not enough today, but that’s it.
The last few years I was not able to compete right because my knee didn’t give me that chance. This year I competed well again. I created myself the right opportunities. I was in the fourth round, second week.
Two days off for me was probably not the perfect thing for me at that time of the tournament because I arrived with the right feeling and playing well. But I had that two days, and that’s fine.
I tried. I lost. That’s the easiest way to explain that. I lost. Is not a drama. Is nothing strange.”
So this is the key reason he said he lost to Kyrgios (nothing to do with knees or his back):
“But I was not able to read his serve during the whole match. At the end on grass, the resume is that. I was not able to read his serve. I was not able to put enough returns inside. We had one break each.”
thank you!
natasha2013 (at 3:44pm),
This is a part of the transcript of Rafa’s post-match press conference.
Rafa was polite. He always is.
You’re welcome natashao.
If anything, Nadal is always very honest and candid in his interviews.
Thank-you augusta08. That is indeed where I found the transcript. A very useful site.
here is the full interview:
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=100633
RAFAEL NADAL: I didn’t play with lot of pressure. I won in the French. I am having a great season. I am playing well.
But I repeat. The surface here is dangerous and my draw was not easy. I played against a player that was not easy no one round. Today was not the right opponent again. He decided to serve so big and play so aggressive from the baseline.
During the whole match I had some chances. Not in the first set, but after the first set yes. Even in the fourth, first game, Love‑30, two aces, two lines. That was it. I was not able to read the serve. I tried. Nothing bad.
I was right…I believe these words from Rafa should put an end on this discussion…
I wish people would recognize Rafa’s best game which it was at the FO 2014…he beats top form Novak fair and square…
natashao2013 says:
October 22, 2015 at 4:06 pm,
—RAFAEL NADAL: “But I repeat. The surface here [at Wimbledon] is dangerous…”—
===
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This says it all. 🙂
that much I believe when it comes to Rafa… 🙂
You do remember how Rafa seemed on the verge of physically collapsing in that fourth set. He was double over at one point and the commentators were alarmed. Something was going on with Rafa, maybe it was his back or just fatigue. He also seemed to be cramping up. I remember after he won, he climbed into the stands and then we saw him whispering something to Uncle Toni. We later found out that he needed some kind of I.V. to deal with dehydration. So Rafa was struggling in that sense. I think he also said afterward that he doesn’t know what would have happened if the match went to a fifth set.
exactly…I clearly remember that…that was Rafa’s physical exhaustion from long rallies…that is what top form Novak does to his opponents…he wares them down…and Rafa still managed to win! Just give him credit for it and please do not say that Novak was not at his best!!!
Dangerous for everybody is what Nadal says in the context of chances for losing.
In terms of easier on the body, Nadal says:
“I think clay and grass are surfaces that are a bit less aggressive for the body,” the Spaniard, who has spoken in the past about hard courts taking a toll on his body, told CNN’s Open Court.
“To save a little bit more (of) your body, it would be great if we could play more and more on grass and clay.”
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/26/tennis/wimbledon-2015-nadal-grass-tennis/
nats,
Since when am I saying that Novak was not at his best? I was talking about Rafa.
This is not the place to discuss anything to do with Rafa; 64aces has already complained to Ricky about this:
64aces says:
October 18, 2015 at 1:20 pm
Ricky Most of the threads here are bombarded with posts about Rafa Nadal. Threads about matches not involving Rafa Nadal are filled with unnecessary stuff related to Rafa Nadal, this very annoying. You should ask the Ra Fans to post all things related to Rafa Nadal on his thread, or threads about his matches.
Reply
Ricky Dimon says:
October 18, 2015 at 2:03 pm
I do this all the time. If you have a recent example that would great so i can appropriately punish whoever is responsible!!
Its not so much about Rafa but its about how good Kygrios is by beating Rafa on grass at Wimbledon. We’re talking about the future of tennis remember? So we’re measuring Kygrios against the great RN but not against the likes of Murray or Stan or Gasquet.
Unless Kygrios can prove his worth by at least consistently beating the top ten guys if not the big four consistently, I see him as not better than Thiem but maybe better than Coric or Kokkinakis.
Were we specifically told not to talk about Rafa on other topic threads? Because I am not aware of that. I think it’s natural that things sometimes go off topic. Other players are brought up. I don’t think it’s so rigid that it’s a capital offense to even mention Rafa.
I agree…we shall see…if he does not change his attitude he will be the major loser…and his talent will go to waste…I hope that to change…and as a fan of tennis I am willing to give him the chance and to forgive him his childish behavior…that is all I was saying from the very beginning…if someone that young was able to beat my Rafa I had to give him some credit for it…
this is where I stop this discussion…
Let me ask one question, why was Rafa able to handle big servers during his 2006-2011 Wimbledon but not lately? Was Kygrios serving out of a tree that Rafa has never ever faced such a serve??
Rafa’s game on grass has deteriorated not without reasons. How come he does poorly on grass but so well elsewhere? Thats because his knee conditions worsen after 2011 that he had problems bending his knees low on the low bouncing grass and he had to undergone stem cell treatment on his knees end of 2013. He did better at Wimbledon in 2014 but hes never the same Rafa on grass the way he was from 2006-2011. Also, Rafa had himself to blame for not holding his nerve during the TB, lost a first serve and had to serve a second serve which was easily returned by Kyrgios and so he lost that TB.
And how was Rafa at 100% at FO2014 final when he was cramping during the fourth set? Novak himself wasnt playing at tip top condition either and so the one who played better finally won the match. Its hardly a tip top Rafa and Novak playing at 100% against each other.
luckystar ( at 4:27 pm),
Right you are!
so now it’s no longer his back issue but his knees? Thank you for arriving to that conclusion! At least you finally acknowledged that…
I was also saying that Rafa’s game deteriorated…my point was that Rafa was not impaired when he lost to Kyrgios and that the loss had to do with Nick playing agressive and serving well which was helped by Rafa not being himself on grass any more… Rafa proved me right in his interview…if Rafa was anywhere injured he would have lost the RG Final…
and now you state Novak was not 100% in the 2014 RG final? really? how do you know that??? how was he then 100% in the Wimby final to beat Fed??? Novak would never agree with you on this speculation…
Nat, did you watch the FO final? Novak was vomitting during the second set and he looked unwell. Rafa was cramping in the fourth set, they both were bothered by the humidity. Not at 100% doesnt necessarily mean being injured. Novak was fine at Wimbledon because theres no humidity problem there right?
You have problem understanding? Rafa had his stem cell treatment at end of 2013 so his knees might not be an issue for him in 2014 but that didnt mean his back after the AO injury was in tip top conditions. They’re not mutually exclusive you know? How do you explain his poor performances at the clay masters and at Barcelona?
Lucky,
I am trying to catch up with this discussion and I posted a comment earlier on this topic thread to the effect that Rafa. was having cramping and other physical issues in that match with Novak. However, I am pleased to read that you also brought it up before I did. I just hadn’t read that far.
I would like to hear from Ricky regarding any of us bringing Rafa into a discussion on a topic thread that is not about him. Is this a problem? I would rather hear from Ricky than have anyone here seem to be self-moderating by bringing this up.
I would assume if Ricky has a problem with posters bringing Rafa up in a topic thread dedicated to other players, that he would post something to that effect.
Lucky,
I am also glad that you brought up the fact that Novak was vomiting and having stomach issues throughout that match. Both Novak and Rafa were suffering in the heat and humidity that day.
As you said, that does not mean either one of them had a specific injury. It was the conditions that took a toll and also the physically demanding nature of their matches.
Nobody said mentioning Rafa was a capital crime but this thread is more about Rafa Nadal than the players who were involved in Shanghai Final. Even Nadal’s recent struggles at Wimbledon are discussed at great length here.
yep. move it.
Even if Ricky doesn’t intervene, even a person with half the brain knows that this thread isnt even remotely related to Rafa Nadal. I mean seriosuly what has a match between Djokovic and Tsonga got to do with Nadal? You should be able to decide even without Rickey’s Moderation.
THIS IS NOT A NADAL THREAD. 64aces has already complained on ‘Site Maintenance’ about this.
you are right…I saw the complaint…but the discussion turned out to be about Rafa vs Novak in FO 2014…that makes it acceptable I think since Novak is in the equation… 🙂
well move it to the nadal thread
No not going to the Nadal thread, that thread is more about info about Rafa and his recent activities, not a thread to discuss his matches.
You can discuss Tsonga vs. Rosol here!
I think threads should do what it says on the tin. This thread is about Djoker winning the Shanghai Final and Rafa was not in the final as far as I know. It would be impossible to keep track of discussions in the future if we don’t put things in the right place.
I’m not trying to moderate anything, just saying.
You see, if we’re going to discuss about the young challengers, where are we supposed to post our comments? Must we always go hunting for the ‘the Rest’ thread? Wont that thread get choked up with all sorts of comments about different topics?
this is correct
What is correct?
@ lucky,
it was said that he was not 100% due to his back injury which is not correct and I argued about it. Furthermore, vomiting and cramping comes from the humidity, long rallies, etc. It was a natural result of the challenging match they played, with long points supported by the difficult whether…it has nothing to do with them being 100%…please you must know that…
and Novak was fine in Wimbly mainly because he did not have to play long rallies of 25+ which he had to in the FO final…and Rafa would never be able to win those rallies if he had any type of back injury…you making such unfounded claims is just taking away from Rafa and from Novak to some extent…and Rafa never mentioned the back injury during FO or Wimby 2014.,..it is pure speculation of some of his fans…
Novak didnt vomit during his matches at Wimbledon did he? He had long matches too at Wimbledon vs Cilic and then Fed but hes fit enough during those matches.
natashao2013 (at 5:22 pm),
—Rafa never mentioned the back injury during FO or Wimby 2014.,..it is pure speculation of some of his fans…—
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1) @10:33 am I posted a picture taken at the 2014 FO; I post it again:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR6m1JJUsAALApA.png:medium
2) Rafa talked about his back issues between FO and Wimby – in Halle:
tennis.com, June 14, 2014: ¤¤ Nadal also admitted that his back was bothering him. “I don’t have a very bad feeling but I still feel the back a little bit,” he said. …
“And I felt that during Roland Garros, in the first round and especially in the second round, it was worse. But it’s true that after the second round I was improving. Today it’s not the worst day but I feel that I need to improve, I need to rest a little bit.” ¤¤
All prior to Wimbledon at which point he said he was healthy unlike 2012 and 2013 before and after losing to Kyrgios.
Nah, Novak was vomitting in the second set after winning the first. Clearly thats not due to exhaustion?
Rafa was cramping not because of exhaustion but because of the humidity and loss of fluid due to dehydration. Under normal conditions, Rafa wont be exhausted when the match itself was not a long one. When a player is cramping surely he cant play at 100%. If Rafa lost that fourth set and then Novak won the fifth because Rafa was cramping, do you still think Rafa was at 100%? Its just that Rafa happened to play well and guessed well Novak’s last few moves and Novak DF the last point and lost the fourth set and the match so there’s no fifth set.
You see,.the injury happened in Jan at the AO, by FO or Wimbledon there’s no injury. However that doesnt mean his back was fully healed or at tip top conditions, you have to understand this. If not, how come Rafa did so well at the AO and reached the final but out of sudden he played so badly throughout the European clay Masters?
If you read Nadal’s transcripts, he said that he was fit in 2014 and the reason he lost against Kyrgios is because he couldn’t get a read on his serve. He also said having two days off between matches wasn’t ideal.
Kyrgios is a flake, but when he is on (and he was up for the big stage that day), he has incredible game and talent.
NNY if you’re still there, Alex Zverev is now playing against Berdych at Stockholm. Berdych won the first set 6-3, now into sec set Zverev leading 2-0, 15-0. Go watch him.
“Let me ask one question, why was Rafa able to handle big servers during his 2006-2011 ”
Like who exactly. Nadal has been bombarded by many hard servebots from 2012-2015 and the more you face the higher the chances for one to beat you on any given day.
Nadal didn’t have to face too many large servers prior to 2012 at Wimbledon.
Whereas after 2011, he had to face Rosol twice, Klizan, Kukushkin, Kyrgios and Dustim Brown all of whom hit the ball extremely hard on grass.
He didn’t? What about Sod, Berdych, Delpo, Petzschner, Haasse, Gulbis? Also Muller with his S&V game, not to mention Fed himself with his great serves on grass? You telling me Rosol, Klizan and Kygrios are better players than them?
On the day, not Klizan but Rosol and Kyrgios certainly were.
Gulbis was just 19!
Petzschner and Haase both took Nadal to five sets! Muller and Del Potro each took Nadal to two tie breaks.
Soderling has never done well on grass – one 4th round and one quarter final.
Berdych has rarely been a problem for Rafa. Bad matchup.
And what rounds did Klizan or Rosol or Kygrios usually reached at Wimbledon?
lucky,
Thanks but I left because things were getting too confusing. This business with being told not to take about Rafa here over and over and then the discussion itself which was going around in circles. I made one or two comments after I came back, but I think I will just stay out of it.
Just to let you know, the tennis channel coverage of Stockholm hasn’t been that great. They seem to be showing those matches on a tape delayed basis. So I will try to catch whatever I can. I really do want to try to watch this kid Zverev. I am impressed with him.
I appreciate the reminder, even if I wasn’t here to read it! 🙂
And you expect Rafa to say that he lost because he’s having problem with his body? Of course Kygrios serves is a problem but isn’t it too much to handle when you are facing servebots after servebots?
He always intimates when there is a physical problem yes.
Facing servebot after servebot is my whole point.
No, he’s always being asked the questions about injuries and he had to fend off such questions.
And you see, in 2010 he was able to fend off three servebots but not now. See the difference?
Yes I see the difference. Nadal already explained it. Kyrgios and Rosol hit the ball harder. Nadal scraped by Haase and Petzschner. The differences in these matches were razor thin decided by a few points.
2015 was a different problem all together.
I also don’t believe that Nadal has ever resorted to dishonesty to fend off questions. He has always been candid and very honest.
Sod had the misfortune of meeting Rafa or Fed at Wimbledon. Gulbis that year in 2008 was causing Novak problems too at the FO. And how old was Kyrgios in 2014? Petz and Haase took Rafa to five sets and exactly! And Rafa won and that’s the difference between then and now! You forget your very own question and ie which servebots did Rafa meet back then? I gave you the list and Rafa did overcome them back then!
Players playing well at 19 are the exception not the norm.
Many players gave Novak problems before 2011.
Gulbis, Haase, Del Potro, Berdych and Petzschner are not known as “servebots”.
I didn’t forget anything. Please keep this about tennis. No need to attack other posters.
And when did I attack you? I’m just reminding you about the question you asked and I gave you the answers.
Those players are not known as servebots because they’re better than servebots; they do serve plenty of aces though on grass.
OK, not an attack but a bit sarcastic or disrespectful. You knew the comment I was talking about so you obviously know that yourself.
No I asked for servebots and you listed players that you agreed weren’t.
It doesn’t matter. The differences were fine and Nadal explained it honestly, openly and correctly.
If you’ve read his presser transcripts recently, you would’ve came across a comment by him that he won’t lie unless really has to! I mean what you expect players to say in the pressers? That they lost because of injuries? You remember what happened to Fed after saying he was injured when he lost to Berdych at Wimbledon one year?
I saw that transcript and it was said humorously. In jest. I have found no examples of this to be the case.
As I said, Nadal is always exceptionally honest, candid and respectful at the same time so to answer your question in terms of Nadal? Yes.
Here is what he said when he lost to Stan in Australia.
“The back, since the beginning I felt a little bit, from the warmup. It was a little bit worst in the first set. End of the first set, I start to feel worst.
Then at the beginning of the second was the key moment that I felt, during a serve in a bad movement, is very stiff, very bad.
That’s not the real moment to talk about that. Is the moment to congratulate Stan. He’s playing unbelievable. He really deserve to win that title. I very happy for him. He’s a great, great guy. He’s a good friend of mine. I am really happy for him.
So just congratulate him for everything. He had a great year last year and start the new year winning two titles is just amazing.
So congratulations.
Just try to‑‑ I don’t know. You can ask the physio, because in that moment I was too worried to think about what happened. The physio tried to relax a little bit the back. When that happen during a match is almost impossible. I tried hard.
Last thing that I wanted to do was retirement. No, I hate to do that, especially in a final. Same time, is tough to see yourself during the whole year you are working for a moment like this, and arrives the moment and you feel that you are not able to play at your best.
So was not an easy situation for me to be on court like this, but I tried hard until the end, trying to finish the match as good as I can for the crowd, for the opponent, for me. So that’s what I did: tried everything until the last moment, but was impossible to win this way. Opponent is too good.
For that matter, he even now refers to 2012-2013 Wimbledon’s as not arriving in the best conditions with his knees so he’s been open and honest about being injured there too. He would have beaten Darcis I believe in 2013 if his knees were good. Rosol maybe maybe not.
2014 he claimed to be healthy and that’s good enough for me given how honest he has always been. Kyrgios was just too good on the day for him. Nothing wrong with that.
I like the Stockholm QF line up tomorrow. Berdych, Simon, Gasquet, Dimitrov all in action, should be good matches.
lucky,
Yes! There should be some good tennis! I will check to see when they are showing Stockholm. They’ve been showing Vienna live, If I recall, the tennis channel will sometimes switch to broadcasting live with these smaller tournaments when they get to the quarterfinals. Otherwise, I will just wait for the taped replay. I am more interested in Stockholm than Vienna.
Christophe, that AO injury is obvious for all to see and he took a long MTO. He had to explain what happened during his presser when asked, there’s no way he could avoid that.
Seriously, I would expect players to avoid giving injuries as excuses when they lost, Nadal is no different if he can avoid it. If he comes on court with bandages then of course he may be asked about them.
I think we’ve discussed enough of Rafa (and Kygrios) here. I think we shall stop here.
Sorry, did Tsonga win or lose his match vs Rosol?
I see Dimi won his vs Almagro. I’m also happy for Cilic for winning his match at Moscow. Hope for him to do well for the rest of the season and starts well next year. He’s already doing OK even when missing the AO this year.
Go to Daily Picks.
Ok thanks.
lost
I did get to see Tsonga/Rosol. Rosol won easily. I also saw Dimi and Almagro.
@ Christophe Umlaut 7:57,
great post! (and all the previous posts! ) You said it all! I really appreciate your input on the topic and the well based arguments! I fully agree on all counts…
You have excellent tennis knowledge!
natashao2013 ( at 7:57 pm),
I don’t think it’s great to ignore Rafa’s health issues. 🙂
Nobody is ignoring Rafa’s health issues…we just do not use them as excuses nor does Rafa…so you shouldn’t either…it is disrespectful of Rafa…judging by some of the comments here Rafa has NEVER been 100%. LOL…
One should differentiate injuries from the fear of injuries…that is what Rafa often experiences. “Feeling a little bit” hardly qualifies as an injury. However, Rafa is terrified of getting injured and I do not blame him for that. Of course if he feels something he speaks honestly about it and it’s up to the public to interpret or misinterpret it…
Saying that Rafa deliberately does not tell the truth in his interviews is also very disrespectful of our Rafa. I would never expect some of his fans stating such thing…
Rafa was not injured in the FO final! Rafa did not feel his back in that Wimby match with Kyrgios. Rafa beat Novak as he displayed outstanding tennis and incredible mental strength. Rafa lost to Kyrgios because the kid played agressive and served well on Rafa’s least favorite surface. Period.
you will just have to learn to live with that…
Well said natashao, Great post!
Nats, I think you have problem getting the gist of our comments. I don’t think anyone, me included, has implied that Rafa deliberately does not tell the truth. What he can do or has done is by simply brushing aside the issue, eg by saying he does not want to talk about injury. Seriously do you expect Rafa to be injury free all the time? He sometimes play through pain and sometimes he wins and other times he lost. His injury may or may not be a factor and journalists always try to tempt him into revealing what kind of injuries he’s suffering from. Rafa normally doesn’t talk about his injuries when he loses but when the injuries are well known he has no choice but to answer those injury questions.
About his back issue, if his back was perfect, why then he needed the stem cell treatment at end of 2014? He also mentioned that if the stem cell treatment didn’t work then he really didn’t know what else could help (his back). Back issues won’t just go away that easily. Fed was plagued by it and he sometimes played through that win or loss. Murray also has his back issue. I won’t be surprised that Rafa has/had to play through that either so his serves were sometimes affected. We talking about his injuries after his matches, win or loss, was out of concern for him. I seriously don’t think he’s invincible when he’s fit and healthy esp on indoor HCs and on grass, so why the need to think that we’re only giving excuses?
Nats, why do you think Rafa played so badly at the clay Masters last year?
PS. I don’t think we’re not giving credit to Kygrios for beating Rafa at Wimbledon he being a servebot. However, too much credit was given to him when he couldn’t build on what he had done then and played so badly this year at Wimbledon vs Gasquet.
Nats, I posted a reply but it was somehow lost. I’ll try post that again.
I think you’ve not got the gist of our comments. Nobody, me included, has implied that Rafa deliberately does not tell the truth. Rafa himself didn’t say that he’ll deliberately not tell the truth. I think you’re going too far when you say some of his fans are saying or implying that!
Rafa normally won’t want to talk about his injuries, when he wins or loses; it’s the journalists who always want to tempt him into revealing anything about injuries or no injuries and make an issue out of it. Of course when the injury is obvious, like during his AO 2014, then Rafa has no choice but to talk about it.
I see no problem discussing Rafa’s injuries, for I’m one not believing he’s invincible when not injured. He’s always vulnerable on indoor HCs and on grass as his records shown. It’s more out of concern for him that we discussed about his injuries. Back injures are difficult to deal with, for sometimes they’ll resurface and during matches. Fed has to deal with it and plays through back pain, win or loss; Murray too. Rafa now has to deal with it too. If his back is perfect, why then does he need the stem cell treatment ( at end of 2014) and if I’m not wrong, he mentioned that if that won’t work, he didn’t know what else he could do to help his back. Also, how come Rafa was suddenly doing so badly during the clay court events last year, when he could reach the AO final ( which was played on HCs)?
I can only speculate that he’s not pushing his back too hard, esp when the FO was round the corner. He gave it his all during the FO final, playing well ( I don’t think we said he wasn’t despite his cramping in fourth set) and to me that was why he was so emotional when he won it.
PS. I think Kygrios was given enough or even more than enough credit for his performance vs Rafa at Wimbledon. I don’t think we feel Kygrios didn’t play well and Rafa was injured when he lost ( though I maintain Rafa was not in tip top condition where his back was concerned). It’s just that Kygrios hasn’t lived up to expectations thus far. Will he be another Gulbis?
The above comment from from me.
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Anonymous ( at 5:40 am) aka Luckystar,
Well said!
natashao2013 says:
October 22, 2015 at 10:11 pm
— 1) Nobody is ignoring Rafa’s health issues…we just do not use them as excuses nor does Rafa…so you shouldn’t either…—
—2) “Feeling a little bit” hardly qualifies as an injury. —
—3) Saying that Rafa deliberately does not tell the truth in his interviews is also very disrespectful of our Rafa.—
—4) Rafa was not injured in the FO final! Rafa did not feel his back in that Wimby match with Kyrgios. —
===
.
1) I have presented information. (Speaking of “we”, I have no idea who are these mysterious “we”.)
2) It qualifies as a health issue.
3) I said: “Rafa was polite. He always is.”
4) Rafa had health issues.
@ lucky,
“how come Rafa was suddenly doing so badly during the clay court events last year”…
how come Rafa was doing even worse on clay courts this year? He wasn’t facing any injuries this year, was he? I repeat: he is no longer young and able to engage in long rallies…he needs to adjust his game…otherwise he will be losing on clay next year as well…deterioration of Rafa’s game becomes specifically visible on clay…but I firmly believe that changes that Rafa and his team are working on will have results…
and as for Kyrgios I will repeat what I said: IF he doesn’t change his attitude he will be yet another wasted tallent…at the end we come to the same conclusion…
Nats, you obviously still don’t get it. If it’s because Rafa deteriorated so much on clay then why he was able to engage in long rallies and won the FO last year?
You talk about this year but isn’t Rafa also doing badly on HCs and on grass too? Rafa obviously has other issues this year and Rafa has already explained why so I’m not going to talk about what have happened this year.
if there was no deterioration Rafa would have easily beaten Novak on clay and especially in the FINAL…we know that Rafa becomes the beast in the finals…if he was the King of Clay like he once was he would have dealt with Novak easily especially with Novak affected by the conditions and being under tremendous pressure…I hope you are not saying that Rafa’s game on clay in 2014 is the same as in 2010?!
and this year’s issues you do not need to explain and I do not even want to go there…it’s too painful…I know it is mental for Rafa but it all comes from his incapability to deal with fast and hard hitting opponents…his FH never worked properly…his court positioning was not adequate in many matches this year…he is slower…his serve lets him down…please if these are not indications of deterioration and the alarm for change, then I do not know what is…
we will just need to stop here and agree to disagree…Hope 2016 will give us more answers…
and if there was no deterioration and the obvious tool those injuries took on Rafa’s body (including getting older of course) he wouldn’t at all have felt affected by the conditions in and he wouldn’t have had cramps in the first place…next year he will have to do better than that…he will simply have to avoid long grueling matches on clay or he will end up being wasted by the time RG comes…
Nats, Novak has improved so much on any surface since 2011 and hes still in his peak. Rafa OTOH is slowly coming down from his peak so to expect Rafa to beat Novak handily on clay is being unrealistic. I dont think we’re expecting 2010 Rafa but you’re the one feeling disappointed about Rafa’s game ‘deteriorating’.
You think Rafa and his team are not aware of how his body works as he grows older? Whatever we can think of, his team would’ve already thought of and finding ways to improve. Unless you dont trust Rafa, you got to believe him when he says hes always finding ways to improve.
Sigh. Christope, it seems you’re arguing for the sake of arguing. You talk about servebots, I’ve given you a list of players who serve big and hit hard, and they’re even better than the servebots, so aren’t they more dangerous than the ‘just’ servebots?
As I said, the Rafa of 2012 to 2015 is no longer the Rafa of 2007-2011 and so those tight matches that he could win during 2007-2011 he couldn’t win them now or he could lose more of them now. It’s obvious for us to see judging from his results at Wimbledon from 2012 onwards. Right now, he could lose to any kind of players – servebots, S&V player like Brown and player like Darcis. If he has to meet those players that he barely beat in the past, I would guess that he’s going to lose to them now.
His grass court game has gone down a few notches imo, whether that’s due to his own decline, injuries or opponents are getting better, we all can have our opinions and they may differ.
luckystar (at 8:17 pm),
FYI: Christophe Umlaut = h63. 🙂
No that is not the case. I just take what Nadal says at face value.
Again you accuse me first of forfetting my question and now arguing for the sake of it.
I will stick to tennis.
To summarize, Nadal said he wasn’t healthy in 2012-2013 for Wimbledon because of his knees and the grass conditions. But not in 2014 when he said he was healthy. Kyrgios on that day was too good.
I do respect your opinion.
No, I didnt accuse you of forfeiting your question. I just reminded you what you’d asked when I’d answered your question.
You mentioned servebot and I listed the servebots (and better). Oh, and whatever points you raised, i did have an answer to that:
1) you mentioned Gulbis was only18 in 2008; I asked, ‘how old is Kygrios (in 2014, he’s 19 right? So age is not an issue for Gulbis).
2) you mentioned Sod only managed R4 and QF at Wimbledon. I said he was stopped by Fed or Rafa there. Also I asked what rounds did Klizan, Rosol or Kygrios used to make at Wimbledon? Are they better than Sod? Sod was also known to serve big and hit hard, he did that and beat Rafa at FO too, so he’s a greater threat on grass. He was also pushing Rafa at Wimbledon back in 2007.
3) you talked about Petz and Haase pushing him to five sets and Delpo getting to TB with Rafa, all those just proved that Rafa had faced tough big serving opponents, when they were serving aces throughout the match. Not forgetting Delpo had the biggest easy power flat forehand in tennis at least during those times. He ran Novak close in their 5 sets match at Wimbledon in 2013. Delpo was.also one who’s unwavering and never gave up. Rafa beat all of them back then.
So, your point that Rafa didnt face servebots in the past at Wimbledon prior to 2012 was simply not true. I also mentionef that Rafa in 2010 was able to beat three servebots but in 2014 beating three in a row was too much for him and that’s the difference between then in 2010 and now. I would also speculate that if its Raonic instead of Kygrios that Rafa met, Raonic would beat Rafa too.
nats is wrong in claiming that Rafa was 100% in FO 2014. There was something wrong with him and you could see it in the anxiety displayed by his team. As for Wimbly, tell me a guy who is so good that he makes 5 successive (not counting 2009 when he did not play) Wimbly finals winning 2 how come he then falls prey in 4 successive years in the early rounds to players, all different, playing “the game of their lives” and all falling in the next round? Pulleeze that is highly improbable. As James Bond might have said, once is happenstance, two times is coincidence, three times is “enemy action” i.e. something is wrong with Rafa. 4th time makes it more certain if you want to be more certain. Something happened to Rafa. He has never been 100% ( always with some injuries) but he played great through pain. After his back injury his body now defies his will power. His team is desperately trying to resurrect his career but can a 29 going on 30 player reinvent himself so much as to be again winning slams with new patterns of play? we can but hope. If anyone can do it, our Rafa can.
Rafa’s game has deteriorated…i think you said it yourself…the injuries (primarily the knee injury) took a tool on his body… and the time offs that he had to take made him slower and more difficult to come back strong…and it gets obvious especially when he plays on clay because he is no longer so fast and other baseliner are able to outhit him…
I hope you do not think that Rafa will reach his 2010 level in 2016…what he will do is adjust and change in order to be able to beat the big guys, primarily Novak…That is what Fed did…Rafa is slower which is natural result of growing older and suffering injuries…all your arguments that Rafa was not 100% in the RG Final are in fact the evidence that Rafa is growing older and his game differs from the one in 2010…hence he looked injured but he wasn’t…it’s more difficult for him to hit strong and long from the baseline…he needs to change which I understand his team is working on…
we just need to get accustomed to the new Rafa for whom I hope to be able to adjust his game otherwise he will not be able to beat even the lower ranked players including on clay…
and you just confirm what I thought some of you have been saying that Rafa has never been 100%…i disagree…i think he was 100 % in that FO final but in accordance with his age and his current level of play…he can no longer do miracles… I strongly believe he will alter his game to come to the wining stages again…and the solution certainly won’t be the approach of bashing the ball for 20+ times…
And I disagree with nats that Rafa has to be at 100% to beat Djoko. Not on clay. Fed and Stan have both beaten Djoko in years 2011 and 2015 when Djoko was considered invincible. And Rafa is the greatest clay courter of all time. Does he have to be at 100% to beat Djoko on clay?
yes he does…unfortunately…Novak is on different level than Rafa…he is faster, his serve is better hence he can afford free points whereas Rafa’s serve is so slow and easy to return that he needs to fight for each point running like hell and wasting his precious energy…and Novak can keep the rallies it seems forever…Novak is one year older, Rafa peaked much earlier than Novak and Novak can play at this level at least for another year which will be sufficient to break the records…unless Rafa adjusts his game and comes back strong..
Both Novak and Rafa felt the pressure in the FO final…the conditions were equally bad for both and they both reacted…but to say that they were not 100% is pure speculation…the time will tell..
please do not take away anything from Wawa…he played great rather amazing match in the FO 2015 final and Novak let the pressure get to him…
meant to say RAFA is one year older…
I know it is purely hypothetical but does anyone believe WaWa could have beaten
Rafa had they met in the final.