Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic will be hoping to snag spots in the Paris semifinals when they take the court on Friday. Standing in their respective ways are Stan Wawrinka and Tomas Berdych.
(4) Stan Wawrinka vs. (7) Rafael Nadal
Nadal and Wawrinka will be facing each other for the 16th time in their careers and for the second time this fall when they meet again in the quarterfinals of the BNP Paribas Masters on Friday night. Nadal extended his head-to-head series dominance to 13-2 by hammering Wawrinka 6-2, 6-1 in last month’s Shanghai quarters. The Spaniard is 8-1 on hard courts (2-0 indoors), with his only such loss coming in the 2014 Australian Open final. Wawrinka’s second victory came earlier this season on the clay courts of Rome via a 7-6(7), 6-2 decision.
Nadal is through to a fourth consecutive quarterfinal, having previously reached finals in Beijing and Basel in addition to the Shanghai semis. But the world No. 6 almost bowed out of Paris on Thursday, when he saved one match point to overcome Kevin Anderson 4-6, 7-6(6), 6-2 in two hours and 26 minutes. Wawrinka has advanced with straight-set defeats of Bernard Tomic and Viktor Troicki. The fourth-ranked Swiss is 11-2 this fall and bouncing back nicely from a first-round Basel loss to Ivo Karlovic. Although the surface is conducive to Wawrinka’s game, by hard-court standards it also plays into Nadal’s hands. The world No. 1 should be able to bounce back in fine fashion from his third-round tussle, just as Anderson recovered to come within one point of beating Nadal after getting past Dominic Thiem in two hours and 44 minutes one day earlier.
Pick: Nadal in 3
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(1) Novak Djokovic vs. (5) Tomas Berdych
A similarly lopsided “rivalry” will be taking place when Djokovic and Berdych collide for the 22nd time on Friday. Djokovic owns a 19-2 record in the head-to-head series, including 16-0 on hard courts and 6-0 indoors. Both of their 2016 showdowns have required decisive third sets. Berdych pushed his opponent the distance in both Dubai and Monte-Carlo but lost 6-0, 5-7, 6-4 at the former and 7-5, 4-6, 6-3 at the latter. The Czech’s victories have come in the 2010 Wimbledon quarterfinals and at the 2013 Rome Masters.
Berdych had been thriving at 250-pointers while struggling at more prestigious events of late, so his 6-3, 6-4 rout of Jo-Wilfried Tsonga on Thursday came as a minor surprise. The world No. 5, who preceded that performance with a 6-3, 4-6, 7-5 defeat of Edouard Roger-Vasselin, is 57-18 for the season and 12-3 this fall. Djokovic has not yet reached peak form in Paris despite having showcased more than enough to see off Thomaz Bellucci and Gilles Simon in straight sets. The top-ranked Serb has not lost prior to the final of any tournament since the first tournament of the year in Doha (l. to Karlovic). Nothing suggests Berdych will be the one to end that impressive streak of Paris’ two-time defending champion.
Pick: Djokovic in 2 losing 8-10 games
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Taking Novak in two losing 5-7 games and Rafa in 3
Nadal is playing a different wawrinka then he did two weeks ago. Wawrinka was tired for that match, he had played two straight 2 and a half hour matches. You could see him physically tired during the match with Nadal, and completely uninterested. This wawrinka in paris is rested, he beat both Tomic and troicki in just over an hour each and had a day rest in between. Wawrinka at his best ball striking could easily overpower nadal, and expose his backhand. I am not so sure Wawrinka’s form is as good as when he plays a grand slam, but I really don’t see Nadal winning this match on an indoor hardcourt.
Wawrinka in 2
I was thinking same thing but I’m afraid Stan may be like oh well I’ve got some matches in I’m good for London and just not really be as motivated kinda like in Shanghai except that was more fatigue so I went with Rafa in 3.
this is a possibility
it will be much closer, but Nadal should win. this is not a typical indoor hard court. it’s not like an ice rink that opposing countries use to play against Spain in Davis Cup.
like Benny G, I also went back and forth on Wawdal
#Waffle
Stan isnt good on indoor HC, he can lose to anyone. Stan generally not so great on quicker courts. I think Rafa can handle Stan after getting past an inspired Anderson.
this iscorrect. Stan is best on clay. Second best plexicushion.
Stan is better on slower courts so the AO court suits him. His stats on indoor HCs isnt great, just made one or two SF indoors, at WTF.
Did you seriously delete my post?
Hilarious!
Rafa should be spent. He has played a lot in past 4 weeks..long matches.
I feel a loss against Wawrinka may be good to just give him a break.
What is the issue with the knee by the way?
I read the comments..Rafa atleast snatched a win..Fed could not even do that..
Stan isnt necessarily fresh either. I doubt any of the remaining players in the draw is physically fresh after a long season.
I think Rafa has problem with Anderson because of his big serve plus his net rushing or S&V and also one two punch. Stan is a different prospect, he prefers to stay at baseline and hit hard and penetrating shots from both wings. Unless Rafa is still serving poorly and playing from way behind the baseline, he should be able to deal with Stan using all his tennis intelligence and problem solving abilities.
I agree with Lucky. For the record, I do not think that a loss against Stan will be good just to give Rafa a break. Winning is important to Rafa. He now has a chance against the #4 player in the world. I say Rafa should just keep on keeping on. He’s gotten knocked out of so many tournaments so early this year, that he can’t possibly be tired. I think Rafa is thriving on these matches and getting more confident all the time.
I just don’t know if Rafa is going to have another one of his slow starts. I expect Stan to come out aggressive with his powerful groundstrokes. I would really hope that Rafa not drop his serve early in the first set, if at all possible.
I do think this will be a tough match. But in the end, I expect Rafa to prevail in 3 sets.
I agree with this. Because of how bad the year has been, Rafa needs matches. Usually it is the opposite this time of year.
Stan in 3.
Same with Ricky D., Novak in 2 losing 8-10 games.
Rafa in 3, Berdych in three based on Novak losing his serve five times against Simon
I agree with both lucky and native…Rafa needs more matches…he may be tired more due to mental exhaustion not physical…Rafa has always said that he was practicing well but needed to do better in actual matches…I think this one is important to him…
Wawa may be the different one but so is Rafa…he is more confident especially after this great win against Anderson…I expect this to be a tough match but I also expect Rafa to beat Wawa…it may go to three sets but if Rafa is focused and serving well from the start it may be done in 2 with one tiebreaker…
BTW, amazing how the crowd was cheering for Rafa…it was like he was playing in Madrid…I do not know about tonight but I expect at least 50% of them cheering for the cute Spaniard…
And how can someone not like Rafa’s tennis and his thrillers…he makes tennis so exciting and so tense…he brings the best in his opponents…the people who pay tickets for Rafa’s matches know it will be worth it…even when playing boring servebots Rafa makes it interesting to watch…
Vamos Rafa! Make it worth it tonight! Let’s see again that beautiful smile of yours…
^^That too.
Meant that to be under Shireling’s post. We’re in for another late night if it goes to three sets.
Exactly. Rafa makes tennis more exciting. His fighting till the last point, never give up, always thinking of how to solve problems out there – all these we can see with our eyes, and how many times we marvelled at how he managed to win that point, save that BP or even MP, or came ftom behind and edged his opponent for the win!
Its no wonder that Fed respects Rafa so much and cherishes his rivalry with Rafa, even though most of the times he (Fed) comes out short. The respect is mutual between them. Imo, only they can match each other in terms of coming up with ways to solve problems out there on the tennis court.
I think Rafa can beat this Stan, as long as he uses his tennis brain to solve any problem out there. I like the way Rafa came out with some gutsy and some clutch tennis to beat Anderson. Its strange that Rafa comes out with all sorts of varieties only when his back is against the wall. Quitr puzzling.
Nats: His habit of dropping the first set is wearing on the nerves (his as well as ours) and I’m sure you are right about him being tired mentally more than physically.
It is always hard to guage what degree of pain he is going through. I hope what we saw last night were momentary twinges and not the onset of an injury – U.Toni said as much in his interview – but it’s bound to prey on Rafa’s mind up to a point.
vis a vis WaWa I’m not sure what to expect from him tonight but I doubt he will have as much as 50% of the crowd behind him. Rafa has certainly conquered Bercy this year: were this to have been a Fedal encounter it would be a different matter.
PS: the drummer and his mates belong to the rent-a-crowd movement which travel to big sporting events purely to make as much noise as possible. I wouldn’t mind betting some of them barely know what sport they are watching let alone the rules of combat.
Rafa needs more matches, we all agree, but he could make his life easier and finish them up sooner.
He could if he doesn’t have to deal with one big server after another. Non of the other players had to play Karlovic, Raonic, Rosol (2), Pospisil, Sock, Cilic and Dimi in the last 2 weeks.
Well its a good thing in a sense that soon Rafa will get better at neutralising their serves and get better at retuning them esp if he want to go deep at Wimby….so its all good if you look at the big picture
I think the speed of the court is a figment of someone’s imagination. How can anyone tell by looking at it on TV. Even the commies are guessing because unless they actually play on it how can they tell?
There are plenty of sources online that have calculated all the court speeds, it worth a google.
Waste of time. Mahut said the court was slow after he lost in the 1st round then everyone latched onto that, but as soon as Federer lost to Isner, Annabel Croft declared that the speed of the court was a conundrum that it is now getting faster as time goes on. It’s a joke.
What do they base the calculation on? Multiply the days of the month by the cat’s age take away the number of times the cocks crow, throw it all up in the air and see what comes down?
Well, uve described the commies analysis perfectly!!…lol!!
Ricky said it’s slow so it must be fact.
Reblogged this on Tennis Abides.
http://rutube.ru/video/7e061f59c61b750d6967660e632dcc5e/
Good highlights
Is Rafa knee injury serious? That is the biggest worry now.
apparently it’s not the knee but the ankle, team Nadal say it’s nothing bad.
Tight 1st set between Murray and Gasquet.
Murray takes a tight 1st set TB to (7).
Gasquet almost had it at 6-5 and in control of the point
Gasquet overplayed the shot when the set was on his racquet and paid the price.
What a shame! I really like him, that Gasquet.
I noticed that Murray vs. Gasquet have their own thread…
I am hoping for a good match between Rafa and Stan…..want Rafa to play clean tennis and go for his shots. If he does that he should be ok! But if he chooses to languish behind that baseline Stan will deal with him appropriately in straights!
I also do take the point that Rafa needs more match play and that these tough matches can only do him good, but I am not sure if I really want him to meet Novak.
Vamos, Rafa!!
Gasquet leading 5:2 in the 2nd set. Murray to serve to stay in the set.
Murray blew up the Gasket
Nadal’s weak backhand will be exposed today.
Or one of Gasquet’s lapses, who knows!
Sh*, meant Wawa’s….didn’t get much sleep last night, not sure if I’m going to make it to Rafa’s match
Be calm, be focused, be confident, be strong, be brave, Rafa!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTJpdUrVAAAkbp1.png:medium
Berdych wins the 1st game
Berdych seems to be holding his own….very well
Where is everybody?
Waiting for the exciting match.
Berdych missed his set point. TB
he had SP?
He missed converting it to taking the set.
yup…but nothing he could have done on that SP. Novak served well, drew a short ball, dispatched it for a CC forehand winner in the open court.
djokovic was vulnerable in this set but he wins it…. 26th consecutive set for him
novak’s 1st serve% saved him that set
15-15 point and novak hits a HUGE second serve kicker out-wide to berdych’s forehand. His second serve has improved big time
There is no element of surprise in this match. They both know exactly where the ball is going, Berdych is just error prone that’s why he’s losing.
I was following the score on this one on my iPhone. It’s been close, but it appears that Novak is still going to prevail.
I am just glad to be home in time to see Rafa next!
I have been very impressed by how much Novak’s second serve has improved. I remember hearing, I think it was at this year’s RG, that is average second serve speed is something like 104 mph. That’s why Novak isn’t pressured that much on his serve. He knows that he’s got a good second serve to back it up.
yup…103-104 second serves are massive!
Tomas is on fire in this game and djokovic is feeling the heat!
can Tomas force another TB?
Just tuned in. This match is much closer than I was expecting.
I say, berdych takes this TB.
Djokovic just so solid and mentally calm out there atm.
Berdych has a superb ROS…
What a volley from The Bird.
Bird chokes set point LOL.
Berdych’s backhand is also one shot that has improved over the last few years…he has more options with it now and can be more aggressive with it.
THAT WAS A MAKEABLE forehand! come onnnn Tomas! you did not have to do that much with that shot….
He corroborates what I just said about his backhand . LOL. hits a nice and low slice to novak’s backhand and then THUMPS a bakchand DTL winner. GREAT stuff.
Tomas on fire!! Backhand to make it 7-6 was incredible
The Bird dictating. But chokes again!!!
How many times???
Nole will make him pay.
He just cannot get it done on set pnts! such a pity. He could not find a first serve and missed a routine forehand . And now another short forehand missed!
tch tch tch
Too bad for Berdy squandering those set points. Not something you can do against Novak.
That DTL backhand kept Berdy in the match. All he needed with those set points was an ace. He didn’t get it when he needed it.
he saves MP ! did not falter this time! 8-8!!
BAD luck, BAD luck! bad novak just keeps making him play one extra ball all the time!!
insane retrieving!
Berdy over hit that I/O forehand. He used the slice backhand to set himself for the winning shot. It’s a shame because he’s played really well. But when you get those opportunities against Novak, you have to capitalize.
another challenge! LOL ! it was IN!!
Novak puts so much pressure on his opponents.
Nole unhappy.
Didn’t think Djokovic was going to give up his King of the Castle crown that easily.
Heartbreaking loss for Berdy but what a magnificent fight he put up
Sincerely disappointing!!! Berdych does NOT play the important points well……no matter how well ure playing if you have that kink in ure armour then its all for nought!!!
Novak is a beast! Missed opportunities for Berdy.
Novak did not play his best but he played the BIG points well!!! Thats what these guys are good at doing!!! No matter how bad ure playing but when it counts u bring up the goods. this is what Rafa did in the tie-break yesterday……u MUST!!!!
Mona,
You are exactly right! Novak wasn’t at his best, but when it counted he brought the goods. That’s how he does it.
That’s the difference between the best and the rest.
Novak very lucky to win this one in straights! Tomas has never hit his backhand better than this. I wish his forehand were a bit sharper.
Novak’s calmness, belief and insane retrieving and counterpunching skills saved him big time today,
You really can’t afford to make any mistakes in crunch time when you are playing Novak. It’s a shame because Berdy did play very well and battled valiantly. But that big serve wasn’t there for him when he needed it the most.
yup! he can definitely serve better than this.
Commentators saying this is the best they have ever seen Tomas play. Well, in terms of his backhand striking, YES! but he has had better forehand days. Surely.
I disagree with the commies…..the Bird played best at Wimby in 2010 when he made the finals!!!
his backhand was nowhere as good at that time but yes, I agree that he’s had lots of days in which he hit his forehand much better…. also the serve
And U.S. Open in 2012 when he beat Fed.
Commies always talk nonsense. They clearly didnt see Berdych’s better days, he had done better a hundred times at Beijing 2011 where he blew everyone off the court to win the title, hitting his FH Delpo like the whole tournament.
They never mention the young Tomas was the player that foiled TMF and crushed his dream of an Olympic gold in Athens. He went on to win the title in Bercy (I think it was the same year)
Rafa is going to be playing really late tonight. The three setter with Isner and Ferrer and now this tight two TB match with Novak and Berdy.
I would say Berdych really live up to his nickname ‘Birdbrain’!
Novak is there for the taking at the end of the tiebreak yet Birdbrain couldnt even get a first serve to get the point! Whats the use of working so hard to stay close but couldnt take the chances when they’re offered to you?
Its more Berdych who falters rather than Novak in beast mode! How can a no.5 player be so ‘scared’?
Completely agree, luckystar. Berdych flunked so many chances.
As he has been for years. He started his career so promisingly but failed to develop his potential and you see him making the same errors on crunch point over and over again.
Lucky, i think the Bird played well but I agree with you that there is no point u get all this way and play so foolishly when it counts……its just sad! But this is the result we expected anyway so we should not be completely surprised!!
I think Berdy did play extremely well. But when it counted, his serve let him down. All lhe needed to win that set was one ace. But he couldn’t get that serve when he had to have it.
Novak does have this incredible calm when the match is on the line. Winning so much can give a player that kind of belief. You start to think that you just can’t lose.
While Berdy should be proud of how he played, he did miss the chance to even up the match.
don’t thikn bedych was ‘scared’ at all! he did not hold back at all.
As NNY said, he just could not find a first serve when it mattered.
vamosrafa,
Agree! In fact, I think that Berdy showed some guts with his shots in that TB. At one point in the TB, he was down 5-3. He had every reason to lose then. But he kept on fighting..
It’s easy to sit back in our chairs watching these matches and say – why couldn’t he do this, why couldn’t he do that? Because it’s that tough! I don’t think it was fear at all, I think it was the pressure to come up with one perfect shot after another. That’s why Berdy overhit that I/O forehand. He over hit a few shots and that’s just the pressure of playing Novak. You know that you have to be spot on and then you feel that you have to go for more.
Berdy will be disappointed, but the result doesn’t take away from how well he’s playing now.
He cant find it not because he just cant it; its because he’s so tensed out of fear of Novak!
You know how many chances he missed? Novak was throwing him a life line time and again, making errors himself, yet Berdych tensed up and messed up everything. He didnt get his nickname for nothing. Its all these couldnt take the pressure and tension that make Novak becomes what he is now, and what Fedal were in the past.
well, yes, when he really had the chance to deliver the knock out punch, he lacked some conviction… but, novak was not making errors in the most important stages…have to give him that…
ok, on to rafa now! he opens with a break 😀 awesome!! he is changing direction well with his forehand
You missed the point, its when he’s ahead that he’s tensed up, for he couldnt believe that he could be ahead and had the chance to win, having too much respect for Novak.
Its ironical, when he was behind in the score he’s not afraid to lose; but once ahead he’s afraid to lose.
Okay it’s Rafa time! 🙂
Now Stan and Rafa start. ALLEZ Stan!!
Vamos, Rafa!!!
lol…what A START!
vamosrafa,
Was that the little pick up Rafa had at the net? That got the crowd oohing and ahhing.
Some aggressive play from Rafa and a few lucky netcords give him the break. Some shaky serving from Stan in that first service game.
vamosrafa,
I am happy you’re here live blogging with us! The genius tennis brain!
Now Rafa needs to hold that serve!
good to have you as well NNY! you have an excellent ‘fee’ of rafa’s game…..usually that feel is quite accurate….
So rafa missed the chance. He is missing some shots but he is trying to hug the baseline! i don’t mind these errors much…he is trying not to lose court positioning.
awesome half volley! brilliance!
What is it with these commies always having to reelout all Rafa’s losses in every match. They’ve just mentioned Nalbandian beating Nadal here many moons ago.
Lol…..I was thinking the same thing……I mean like who is Nalbaldian again?
Jeeze, That was 2007and the last time he managed to beat Rafa. Their h2h was 5:2 to Rafa.
YAY! Rafa didn’t get broken! He consolidates the break.
Now this is the kind of start that I want to see from Rafa!
Rafa makes three UE’s in a row to lose the chance to get the second break.
I thought Rafa constructed the points brilliantly and was dictating play and then he just muffed it a few times. I can only relax when Rafa is up two breaks!
Good kick serve to begin the point but that smash was ugly :/
He is just determined to stay on the baseline today! bravo
Boris is scouting….lol!!!!
Should have come to the net with the penultimate forehand CC! pity….leaking too many errors
Fantastic serve-forehand combo! deuce…… untidy backhand DTL :/ BP
playing his forehand DTL shots with too much safety in terms of hitting close to the sideline…. wawrinka is easily able to track those without losing much court….
rafa just leaking too many backhandn errors
Yup. But Stan is not playing very well either.
Switching my pick to a mediocre Stan who is currently down a break.
Rafa is hitting short and is sweating like crazy.
c’mon, it’s hot! Rafa needs to go to ace school!!! Look at how Stan served so easily at love in about 5 secs!
Ah, yes, strike that. I just saw Rafa complain to the umpire that it was crazy hot and the crowd are all dressed lightly.
Wouldn’t think it’d be hot indoors in the middle of November.
OK, sticking with Rafa.
False alarm.
He is hitting a bit short though.
yeah….stan’s not playing great
It’s freaky hot weather here. I had to turn the CH off earlier this evening. But what’s the point of complaining to the umpire.
Never heard of a replay of the pointbefore because the ball was broken.
neither have I!!! How did Stan know the ball was broken…….is it before or after he hit it…..i mean weird!!
You really think Rafa is going to lose this match? He’s had some great depth on his groundstrokes in this match so far. He’s not going to hit every shot that way.
No. False alarm. Rafa is not playing as well as yesterday IMO but Stan is not great either ATM.
That was so weird with the broken ball. Rafa wasn’t happy about having to replay the point. Fortunately, he held serve.
shitt! he perfectly set up that inside out forehand! criminal to miss that one! POOR game
Now Stan is ahead……this is soooo unfortunate what a time for Rafa to get broken….his serves really needs working on……..it makes life so much harder for him to protect his game…..gosh! What a shame……i cant see him winning this you know now. His serves are really betraying him.
Yep, I was onto something with the sweating after all.
It’s warm but he’s like a tap out there and he’s from Spain!!!
yeah…insane sweating
Rafa CHOKED again serving for the set.
Short balls on two points let Stan dictate the point and then as VR points out, a brutal IOFH error.
Cant wait to see Rafa’s 1st serve %
It’s 76% but he’s only winning 65% of those points.
Some really nice CC backhands…..needs to be a lot more aggressive with the forehand though
pathetic backhand error from Stab….5-5! take charge now, rafa
low quality stuff
Well played Rafael Nadal! very nicely saved! vamos!
Positive tennis ! that approach shot was not that good but he moved forward at a critical stage and drew the error!
OH NOOOOOOO!!!!! HOW CAN YOU MISS THAT! NOOOOO
damn damn damn! that IOFH !
that was …poor….disappointing 🙁 70 minute long set and rafa loses
Well, we know what that means right?! Straights….its over!!! Rafa’s serves HAS to be improved…..unless he doesn’t he will not win trophies any more. Not being able to serve aces when u need to win games is not going to cut it im afraid….not at all!!!!
should never have lost his serve at 5-4! also had set pnt at 5-3! AND, so many chances in the TB…..pity
I am so frustrated right now! Rafa just gave away that first set! He had set points but didn’t get it done.
To think that at one point he had the chance to be up two breaks. I am really upset with how he let this get away.
can’t believe this…why is he doing this??? it’s killing me…
Rafa please…
And Stan is not even playing that well and he loses the set….i give up! Anyway, Im not sure I want Rafa to play Novak when he does not have a serve! He WILL be creamed!!!
I thought Rafa was going to run away with it at the start of the match then his level dropped. Rafa is not getting his first serve in often enough. He needs to work on that.
Vamos Rafa!
have to go home now………so will miss the remainder…best of luck to rafa
I’m jealous.
Stan playing crap but anxiety Rafa playing crappier.
Should have stuck with my instincts.
I don’t care how hot it is. No one sweats that much from Spain. There’s no sun!!!!
Lol!!!! Its nerves……Stans not even playing that well……..Rafa’s serves, his serves, his serves…….don’t know how many times i can say it!
But you have to love Rafa, he does not care with you guys, he is still trying out there till he has no more sweat left…..lol!!!
Rafa looks low energy. I think Stan has better chances vs Novak. Rafa now has to win two more sets and I dont think he’ll have much left for tomorrow. Stan is the better player so deserves to win the first set.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTKfxlrU8AATi1Q.jpg
Why does Wawrinka only twizzle his racquet, jiggle up and down and swing from side to side when Rafa is serving facing a BP
#TapTap
Rafa needs to do something about his serve! Do I really want to see Rafa slugging it out to try and come back in three sets now? That would mean playing into the wee hours of the morning. He would have a tough time against Novak anyway, but trying to win this in three sets would be a nightmare.
I am really disappointed in the way Rafa gave away that first set.
Serve? Or nerve.
How about both?
No need to be disappointed (at least for me I’m not unless its a final). Rafa playing like this wont cut it against Novak anyway. Had Rafa won the first set easily then I think he still has a slim chance against Novak, now not so after what happened.
Stan looks fitter than Rafa now so I think Stan will come through this and I’m not being negative about Rafa. He still has some work to do obviously.
Novak is winning but he is not exactly setting the house on fire, let’sbe honest.
Yep, that’s why I think had Rafa won the first set easily and on his way to winning this in straight, I think he has a slim chance vs Novak. Now not so.
Nole is doing what he needs to do.
Stan has a headache.
Rafa has a head problem.
#BetweenTheEars
Yes, Novak is doing enough to get the wins. I keep hearing that he’s not looking that great, not setting the house afire. Well he doesn’t have to, does he!
Rafa needs to work on his first serve. He is giving his opponent too much play on his serve. Rafa was better than Stan until he served for the set and Stan took his chance.
Rafa seems slow off the mark. Is he preserving energy or is there a lingering injury problem?
He must be tired. He hasn’t stopped since Beijing.
Rafa’s 1st serve and fh are not where they ought to be yet.
I won’t mind if Rafa doesn’t win this match because I think he needs some rest before he starts training for the WTF. He’s had sooooooooooo many long 3 set matches and it’s catching upon him.
The schedule is awful The winner of this match will be back for the SF at 5 pm tomorrow.
Maybe Rafa should just play ping pong like Novak instead of taking risks.
Losing now will be a blessing in disguise. He’s not in a fit condition to face Djokovic.
whats wrong with him
Right now quite a lot
Winner of this match is going down agains Nole.
#Fact
Indoor tennis should be banned.
Even if Rafa doesn’t win, I’m glad that he’s broken Stan in the 2nd set.
Stan broke himself.
CNT BELIEVE WHAT IVE JUST WITNESSED ?
Stan handed that break to Rafa! He choked big time! Even the tennis channel commies were saying that he got tangled up with his feet and he was really tight. Rafa didn’t have to do anything to get the break.
Rafa is the crowd favourite by a long chalk
who was up a break
Stan
Djoko will be resting in his egg chamber now.
Sour grapes.
This is a naive question but I am puzzled why Rafa keeps targeting WaWa’s BH. Is that a deliberate ploy hoping to it will break down
Rafa is the darling of Paris.
They are as bad as each other
Goodness, Rafa is turning into another Birdbrain!
Rafa is tired.
since they introduced biological passports
Er..hello joe strummer, I think every player is tired at this stage of the season. What has that got to do with biological passports? You should have your suspicion when anyone is feeling fresh at this stage, not when someone is feeling tired at this stage. This really shows you dont really make sense!
I’m not sure I even need to respond to your nonsense but for the sake of doing justice to the players, I’ll respond for once.
what a rally!!
what happened on SP
Rafa and Stan got into a long rally where they were trading some big shots and Rafa ended up blinking. He hit a lame attempt at a drop shot that went wide. That’s how he lost set point.
Vamos Rafa – no matter what!
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/tennis/ready-for-tennis-smiley-emoticon.gif
I’ll forgive WaWa if he repeats his last feat in Paris
A relief for Rafa now! He plays horribly for most part of it; Rafa playing the two tiebreaks at Birdbrain standard!
Rafa is better off not playing a third set just to lose it.
That was some ugly stuff from Rafa to lose the tb and the match. The key was that missed overhead that Rafa would make 99.9% of the time. That would have given him 4 set points.
Just like in the first set, Rafa had set points and couldn’t get it done. I don’t think either guy played well. Rafa did hang in there and fight.
Rafa still no match for top 5 but he is getting closer
I’ve gone off Robbie. He was talking a lot of garbish tonight.
Ricky’s right.
Rafa should stick to his plan and skip WTF.
Indoor tennis should be banned and Rafa’s head is still loose.
Yes, this match showed that there is more work to do for Rafa, including mentally. He did lose his focus when he had set points in both matches.
I don’t know about skipping WTF. That’s up to Rafa.
I would be happy if they banned indoor tennis!
unfortunately it may be the right thing to do… with the game like this Rafa has nothing to do at the WTF…it will be painful experience for him and for us his fans…
Rafa’s head seems to be a total mess…I am really worried now…I thought I have seen improvements…but this match tonight is a huge step back…
And I hate indoor tennis!
depending on how thw groups are drawn, Rafa could be one of the 4 favorites to reach the WTF semis. Nobody would have thought that was likely a few months ago.
I wish he could afford to but he wants and needs as many matches as possible.
But that tennis was just nasty from both players.
Or it could be a repeat of 2009 🙁
I think Rafa needs some rest now before the WTF. I didn’t want to see him slugging it out in another third set. The camera followed him off the court and into the hallway and he did not look happy. He was frowning and I don’t know if it was from pain or just losing.
I don’t either of them would stand a chance against Novak.
Back to the drawing board again for Rafa. At one point U.Toni couldn’t bear to watch – he was hanging his head and looking at his kness.
so disappointing…I am still shaking from the terrible misses Rafa made in this match…now this is I think all mental…Rafa’s team has to do something about it or he will end up losing every close match…
this was painful to watch…Novak will easily deal with this Wawrinka…Wawa did not win this match, Rafa lost it…Rafa blows so many chances and if a player does it deserves to lose the match…
I think its a combination of factors – fatigue after so many weeks of playing plus so many long matches; his ankle may have affected his movement and his serve as he’s serving relatively poorly; his game is just not cut for the indoor HC surfaces and so he has to work extra hard.
agreed!
Rafa couldve won in two TB sets yet he managed to lose in the end! A blessing in disguise perhaps. Let Stan and then maybe Murray deal with Novak, should Novak survive Stan.
Seriously, Rafa’s game really isnt built for the HCs; he has to work so hard to win on them. He rarely wins tournaments on HCs, I mean 16 titles throughout a career spanning 11 or 12 years; and he rarely wins a HC tournament without dropping a set. On clay he used to do that regularly in the past, even twice at the slams. I really missed that Rafa of 2004/2005 playing on the HCs, aggressive, hitting harder and more offensive than defensive and won two HC Masters (incl one indoor) and one Beiiing title in the same year together with another HC Masters final.
expectations way to high around here. A 7-6 7-6 loss to wawrinka that he arguably should have won would have been a great result at just about at any other non-clay part of the season
You miss the point.
It’s not THAT he lost but HOW he lost.
I’m guessing Ricky didn’t watch the match.
Do you???
A whole year and no slams or masters 1000. Ouch. Nice overhead Rafa.
#Stanimal
Its OK when even the so called Goat also didnt win anything during his down year. Its not like Rafa is setting a precedence; someone else had already done that.
My point exactly. How many slams has Rog won since that down year? Fedal is done.
Better not predict anything like this lest you make a fool of yourself when they win a slam or two.
hawkeye,
I agree with you about how he lost. He let it get away from him. This is a step backwards for Rafa. I do confess to being a bit worried, but will not freak out about this match. I thought both guys were far from their best. I know that Stan can trouble Novak, but if he plays like this again tomorrow, then Novak will win easily.
watched the whole match, rafa up 5-2 and on serve in the 2nd set tiebreak and beats himself..smh
Murray over Ferrer in 3
Djokovic over Wawrinka in 2
book it
Ferrer will not take a set
Why ferrer not taking a set? It is ferrer we r talking about here.
I agree with Ricky. I am expecting Murray to win in 2 sets.
This Rafa obsession is fun to read, he played a Wawrinka that was not even at his top game and did not have too much of a chance to beat him. With Wawrinka playing at his best, there is no better player in world (maybe djoker..). It is easy so see why so many are excited for Rafa to be playing better tennis, but he will never again be able to compete with the top 4. His comeback will always fall short because of the weaknesses in his game.
haha…very strongly disagreed….and this has nothing to do with ‘obsession’ with Rafa…
I don’t really mind this loss for several reasons… one of them is that rafa must be tired….he has played lots of 3-setters and has spent a lot of emotional energy. He is progressing very nicely.
Wawrinka got thrashed 6-2 6-2 in shanghai! Stan played a below par match in shanghai and he was not at his best but good today…
and no, stan is definitely not the best player even when his game is fully on…
The only way you wouldn’t mind this match is if you missed most of it.
hawkeye, yes, I only watched the first set. May be I need to watch the second to see how bad it was! Even then, I’d say rafa has made really really good progress post USO
Rubbish. The weaknesses were always there in his game but he was able to beat Fed, Novak and the rest nonetheless. Its a matter of Rafa getting back to normal. To say that he will never be able to compete….please, he almost beat Fed on Fed’s favorite surface and his own least favorite surface! Stan not playing his best, but how often you see him playing his best?? Rafa also not playing his best so he lost in two TB sets!
exactly! don’t know how anyone can even make such claims based on how rafa’s fared in Paris masters !!
Rafa has a very clear upper hand against Stan. He just needs to get slightly better and on surfaces that suit him more, he will take care of stan without much trouble.
hahaha
In a way, I am glad he lost. He can rest now and continue those long practice sessions once he is ready.
I am definitely in favor of rafa playing WTF and I can bet he is going to play there!
You are in for a surprise if you think Rafa will have another shot at a major.
we shall see…. and I am very confident about what I am saying 🙂 he will be fighting for majors soon…
Well may be alex will be in for a surprise instead! We shall see.
Alex will definitely be in for a surprise 🙂
You don’t know that for a fact. No one here does. You can have an opinion that you think he won’t win another major, but you are not a psychic and cannot tell the future.
Alex is feeling very chipper today and a touch smug I might add 🙂
Now if Muzza wipes the smirk off the Djoker’s face on Sunday I’ll join you in celebration – as no doubt will quite a lot of other Tenngranders 😉
Rafa is a mental minion these days. That won’t win a major or even a masters.
How can he be a mental minion after what he had done vs Anderson here and Rosol,Dimi and Cilic at Basel?? Seriously have you been watching his matches??
Yes and the players you mentioned have a grand total of 1 major. He isn’t beating Nole is he? Murray? Even an ancient Federer?
I would say he’s not ready yet. Dont forget this is his worst surface. How often you see him beating Fed, Novak and Murray on this surface in the past??
he’s improved quite a lot in that department. Were you sleeping when he saved match point to win yesterday?
Let’s see him do it against a contender.
We shall see. Its not slam time yet right? So please be patient and wait ..
Filters self claimed busy life can’t stop him from funding time to troll.
11-23 must really hurt, huh?
What are you talking about? Rafa is winning a slam next year imo.
ALLEZ Stan!! Get it done against Novak!!
Why is 7 6 7 6 loss this bad?
I did not see the match but I am alarmed at so much negativity here. It almost looked like he lost 6 1 6 1
I frankly am not at all sad that he lost. He needs rest.
Sanju,
It’s better if you at least get to see the match. Then maybe you might understand some of the comments here. It was ugly from both guys. Not their best at all. But the simple fact is that Rafa got the early break in the first set and also had a chance to break again. But he couldn’t get it done. Then when he was serving for the first set he was broken. So they were even. From there it went to a TB. Rafa did have at least one set point. I am not sure if he had another. But he blew it and Stan won the TB. Rafa let that first set get away.
It’s not a disastrous loss by any means. However, it is a reminder that Rafa is not yet all the way back. He did hang in there in the second set after he was broken and got the break back. That took it to another TB, where Rafa again had more than one set point.
For myself, I didn’t want to see Rafa battling in another three setter. It was already about 2:00 am in Paris.
The problem is that you are judging the comments from people who saw the match. If you can’t see it, then don’t judge. I thought both Stan and Rafa were not at their best at all. I don’t think Stan in this kind of form is going to trouble Novak tomorrow.
This match is just a reminder that there is a good deal more work for Rafa to do.
One more point. Rafa has had a lot of time this year to rest. It’s true that he’s played a lot recently, but he needed it. Rafa said it himself about needing match play. That’s how he gets better. Winning is a good thing.
Now he will have a week off before the WTF. So that will give him some rest. But overall, rest now is not what he needs. Rafa did the right thing in playing all these tournaments. He’s gotten the best results of the year during a time when he normally does not do well.
NNY: Good on you for keeping it real.
I tried not to have overly high expectations beforehand but that didn’t stop me from a sense of bitter disappointment when he messed up on that smash which sealed the loss in two sets. Koenig kept rabbiting on about the brilliant tennis and what an exciting match it was. I agree with you – it was more about mistakes from both players. In other words an ugly match rather than exciting.
ed,
Yes, I feel the same as you. Many times you express exactly what I am thinking. Rafa missing that smash to give him four set points did sting quite a bit.
Fortunately, I didn’t have to listen to Koenig!
If he has an ankle issue, why stress it further and endure another marathon with Novak and further get crushed? Its okay..losses happen all the time. Rafa is not the 1st won to squander set points or match points. He would have lost against Anderson, he pulled it off there. Stan is a better player this year and no shame in losing to him.
Regarding Novak, did Novak not struggle against Berdych? He took 2 tight TBs to win too. Its not as if he walked all over Berdych and nobody expected him to have such a tough encounter with Berdych.
I am not judgemental but I feel we are just too harsh and negative all the time and forever highlighting whatever is wrong.
So right Sanju. But being judgemental is most people’s way of dealing with their disappointment as you my dear well know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I remember demanding you ‘put a sock in it’ during one match some years back because you were being so hyper critical ?
Rewind back to 2013. Rafas WTF win against Stan. It was 7 6 7 6 too and very tight and that was one of Rafas best years. 2015 is Rafas worst year and he lost 7 6 7 6. It is not that bad. He made mistakes which he should not have but it happens.
I am more worried about the knee than the loss. What is wrong with knee/ankle?
Those days are long gone ed. I think I am least critical now compared to all except nadline and augusta who ofcourse wont say a word against Rafa.
Yes the very same Alex. Like Deucy, he’s always been a sympathetic supporter when Rafans are down in the dumps so I’m cutting him some slack for this momentary lapse!. He’s enjoying a whole year of Andy in good form – after years of riding the switchback of being an ardent Muzza fan – and has got a bit above himself. ?
ed..Whole year of Andy in good form? What exactly great did Andy do this year except winning 2 Masters? He lost to Novak 5/6 times he played.
I would say Andys chance of winning a slam is the same as that of Rafa and Fed now as things stand. He is no way better placed than both of them.
If Rafa has to lose let it be against Stan the man.. Seeing the comments I’m glad I couldn’t see the match. Now Stan…. Please trash all of them, you’re rarely in the zone but when you are it’s bliss to watch.
So too was your wife I would imagine Shirling 😉
I hope too that Stan will win this tournament as he will be after Agassi, the first person to win the FO plus Paris Masters in the same year. I do hope Rafa can do it next year!
It was so late last night took my computer up to bed to watch the 2nd set. Fell asleep feeling deeply depressed and woke up this morning even more depressed. I prefer to think it was mental more than physical. If it is the former he can regroup and put last night behind him. The latter will be harder to fix.
Ed, please dont be depressed. Rafa certainly didnt have it in him last night to go the distance. Yes, he let slipped two winnable sets but TBH, I dont think he played well. I feel all the long matches had finally caught up with him. With a week’s rest next week, whatever ailing him (I think he twisted his ankle somewhere though not a major issue but with all the long matches, he wont have enough time to rest and recover) should be healed and he should be rested emough and be ready to start the WTF.
One thing about the WTF, there’s a one day break between the RR matches so there’s enough time to rest and recover. I think Rafa can deal with most of the top eight if not Novak. I think Ferrer, Murray, Stan and Novak are still battling it out there at Paris so they’re not exactly that fresh. If the draw is kind to Rafa, Rafa may make it to the SF stage at the WTF. Fingers crossed.
Thank goodness for the sake of all the players there is the extra week now between Paris and London.
Thanks lucky. I’ll pull myself together before next week. Promise.
When does the draw happen?
I dont know when the draw will be made, probably next Thurs or Fri?
One more thing to add, Rafa’s fighting spirit is back; even when under adversity, he still kept/keeps battling till the end, which is why he’s so captivating to watch out there and wins all the support and love from the spectators.
luckystar, I agree with you. I am not at all down by this loss; I even see it as a draw to be honest. Two TBs going to 9:7 is a draw IMO. I am actually pleased that Rafa is home now, getting some down time after a gruelling few weeks this fall, managing to see off some very tough competition. I take my hat off to him for fighting to the bitter end when most of us were already resigned to a loss in the beginning of the 2nd set. He is a true champion worthy of my sleepless nights and angst.
He still needs to work on his serve and fh but he is a long way from where he was this time last year and if he can end the year as #5 or 6 in his worst year he is going places in 2016.
Vamos Rafa!
lucky,
You were the one who was so critical of Rafa losing the Basel final. Yet you are not concerned about Rafa losing a match he could have easily won? I don’t get that. I am not deeply depressed by any means, but I am concerned. I said last night that it’s not a catastrophic loss by any means.
Weren’t you the one who said Rafa was birdbrain? That doesn’t sound like a compliment. So you were obviously not happy that he lost either.
NNY, you cant compare a QF match to a final! Rafa played well in that final yet made errors in one game, lost serve and thats it, lost the match. Even that match vs Tsonga was frustrating because Rafa played well.
This QF match? After the first few games, I could see Rafa wasnt playing well, he was slower and his balls were landing short. Stan up his level mid 1st set and so they went to a TB. After Rafa lost the first set TB despite having a SP, and the 1st set took more than one hour, I knew he was done. Stan threw him a lifeline in the srcond set by messing up his service game when serving for the match, if not we wont even see the second set TB.
Obviously I wasnt happy he lost and he did play poorly in the TB after having SP, not unlike Berdych. However, like I said, I could see him not playing well so he losing it was normal when Stan up his level. You cant deny that Stan was playing well as the match progressed.
I was disappointed about the loss to Tsonga and Fed because after winning the second set in both matches, he couldnt sustain that winning momentum throughout the third set.
Hey Ed, well my wife got a bit of sleep last night after three straight nights of insomnia which pretty much means I also didn’t get any sleep so I just didn’t have it in me to endure another tennis battle.
I’d skip watching it on playback if I were you!
I still miss Agassi
Why Agassi?
The draw will be on Thursday at 7.45 pm and Sky Sports will be there but I can’t see it in the programme listings so far. No doubt, our Press Correspondent, augusta, will let us know.
I did my own draw on the WTF thread. It would be interesting if others could do the same to see who is closest.
the seeds are not set yet
BTW Rafas post USO season is kinda panning out exactly like Feds post 2013 USO. Fed too then started reaching semis as Rafa is now.
I just hope Rafa is well back on track next year to grab a slam or 2.
and how many GSs has Fed won since his slump in 2013? just asking…If you do not mind I would not compare Rafa and Fed in this regard…
Who is this alex guy who is proclaiming boldly that Rafa will never win a slam? The same Alex who was Muzzas fan? Never seen him that vocal.
Sanju: I have answered you but inserted it in the wrong place. Scroll up a bit.
I think one MUST watch this match in order to make any judgements of Rafa’s game…Rafa lost it mentally not physically…Rafa did not even look wasted…He lost on KEY points mistaking shots that he would otherwise make in his sleep…I think Rafa will be utterly disappointed after this loss…
Stan did not play well…his new teeenage girlfriend was in his box so he, yes, was inspired and highly motivated to prove to her who the boss is, but he choked when serving for the match…it’s not as Rafa did anything to get that break back: Stan simply choked BIG! Yet Rafa managed to prove that his mental weakness is way bigger than anyone thought the way he lost the second set tiebreak…
missing an easy FH on the set point in the first set and then making insane errors in the tiebreak of the second set ARE the indications that Rafa’s hasn’t retrieved his mental strength…his team has long way to go in that department…working on this issue seems equally important as stem treatment IMO…if he does not fix it he will be losing close matches which will only increase his anxiety and lessen his confidence…what do you think this kind of loss will do to Rafa’s future opponents? I bet they all sit back and think: “we just need to put a pressure on him! Sooner or later he will self-destruct…”
Saying that Rafa was tired IMO is just making an excuse…while I agree on the fact that Rafa will always be at disadvantage on this surface, that hardly warrants his failure to win the first set that he had in the pocket and to do it in astonishing manner…I think one has to face some serious issues to be able to lose the set like that…I think even Berdy would have won it under those circumstances…
We are all guessing at the end of the day. Rafa had enough mental strength to overcome a series of tough matches in Beijing, Shanghai, Basel and here in Paris. Yes he shouldn’t have let the match slip but we can’t rule out fatigue. Maybe a bit of both. I think his serve wasn’t good in this match and he missed a few fhs.
I agree…but the question arises why does Rafa have to face those though moments in the first place? Most of the time it is Rafa who puts himself in the position to have to face those critical moments…his game suddenly deteriorates when serving for the match, when having to hold, in the tiebreaks…giving the break back is a serious problem that needs attention…and it is solely Rafa’s problem, not of his opponents…It’s not as they suddenly rejuvenate and play extraordinary tennis to ensure the break back….it’s Rafa who feels the pressure in those moments and folds…he can make it work against lesser ranked opponents…he sure cannot do it yet against the top players…we have witnessed it in Shangai against Tsonga, In Basel vs Federer and now against Wawa…Rafa lost the matches that he should have won and he did it on pure mental basis…
Rafa simply does not trust his game and most of the time it takes only for his opponents to keep the ball in and wait for Rafa to make an error…it really depresses me…
Yes, he needs to back himself more. He does get nervous at crucial times. I’m sure Rafa knows more than anyone what the problem is even more than U. Toni and I look forward to him finding the solution. It he holds his own part of the match and not drop his serve so often, for no apparent reason, he’d be well on his way to domination.
However, I am pleased he is not playing in Paris until Sunday because he’ll have to be in London by Thursday for the WTF. He really needs a break. He said he didn’t expect to win any of the indoor events but sees them as preparation for 2016 so he won’t be down in the dumps.
Clearly it’s more physical than mental! He won’t miss a smash just because he’s mentally tired or mentally not there. Clearly he won’t hit so many FHs into the net when he’s more mentally tired than physically tired. If he’s mentally not there, then why was he still fighting right to the end? He would have folded before that!
Saying he’s physically tired is not making excuses, not any more than saying he’s mentally tired or mentally not there! Give Rafa a break, don’t expect him to play every match in top form match after match. Even the no.1 player was scrappy yesterday against a player he owned all the time and was fortunate not to go the distance to win. Every one left in the other half of the draw had to go the distance, Murray and Ferrer had to work extra hard too. It’s never easy at the later stage of a Masters.
No those lapses are clearly mental as nats points out.
It is not coincidence not physical that he was broken when trying to serve for the first set. On two points he left balls short allowing Stan to dictate and another was a bad UE.
Whenever he sweats like a badly dripping faucet, I know his nerves are off the charts.
Most people here saying that the score proves it wasn’t a bad match must not have watched it all.
Stan was really bad and still won.
It will be a lopsided score against Nole if he plays the same today.
With all due respect, I disagree…Saying Rafa was physically tired for me is pure speculation especially when you see him fighting to the end and running on every ball…he has endured so many five setters in his life that saying he will be physically exhausted from a couple of three setters is rather unacceptable for me…he was certainly not tired against Tsonga in Shanghai and yet managed to lose…
I never said Rafa was mentally exhausted…he clearly is not…his tennis brain works well, he mixes various shots, he even played closer to the baseline in this match and showed some agression…I never said he did not play well…I said he was clearly supposed to win this match but managed God knows how to lose it in the end…he simply does not show his mental strength on key points…Rafa of old would have never let Wawa come back into the match when serving for the set…and Wawa did nothing special in that game but waiting for Rafa to self-destruct…
we may argue here saying it’s this but knowing it’s pure speculation and subject of opinion…however, at the end, we all have to agree that Rafa keeps losing matches that he should have won, and that Rafa becomes easy self-destructive target when put under pressure…that’s the fact and it has to be dealt with…
No it’s not mental exhaustion. It’s mental anxiety.
I don’t think it’s exhaustion because he played far worse at critical moments. The overhead into the net wasn’t from physical exhaustion.
Nats, what do you expect? You expect Rafa to win every match he played?? So he couldnt lose?
This is not the Rafa of old and to expect him to do things as if he’s that Rafa is asking for too much. Check his 2013 season and see how he performed during this part of the season. He struggled to beat Fog at Beijing, and was fortunate Berdych retired in the next match, and got despatched by Novak easily in the final. At Shanghai, he even needed to battle against Berloq, I mean the ‘elderly’ clay court player Berloq? He got handled easily by Delpo in straight sets, Delpo playing some inspired tennis the way Tsonga played at Shanghai this year.
If you put everything into perspective, you’ll realize that Rafa is doing well this part of the season despite the year that he has. Yes its frustrating how he lost to Tsonga, just like how he lost to Fed, but in retrospect, he wasnt doing badly compared to the past, even to his 2013. After seven long matches from Basel to Paris, I can certainly see tiredness in his legs, the way he was slow in reaching the balls and by the end of the second set, he was looping his shots, not hitting them hard. Its Stan throwing him a lifeline at the end of the second set that Rafa found some last burst of energy to push the TB into a tight one.
I’m sure after a week’s rest, he should be more energized and will cut down on those errors. Its crazy to doubt his mindset when he had proven how clutched and gutsy he was when facing MP against Anderson.
lucky,
Again I do not agree. In 2013 one could understand those losses after the brilliant year he had. So there is no comparing these two years and his results. This year Rafa has not won a single slam or Masters title. He was routinely getting knocked out of matches earlier than usual. So talking about him being physically tired after a few best of three set tournaments really doesn’t seem reasonable.
I agree with nats and hawkeye on this issue. It was all mental, between the ears. Not physical.
@ lucky,
I expect Rafa to win the matches that he had under control…he had break point for double break in the first set…he was serving for the set for God’s sake…he had a set point in the tiebreak…it’s only that his first return points won were low, but his first serve was at 75% which was way better than Wawa’s …he had two set points in the second set tiebreak…he had so many chances and he lost those due to his inability to play well on key points…
so what do I expect? I expect Rafa to take the set he deserved not to give it away…if he had won the first set the pressure would have lessen and he would have most likely beat Wawa in 2
BTW, the anxiety increased early in the second set as he was broken by Wawa…and what I think you are misunderstanding about the anxiety: the negative effect of it becomes clear when Rafa is afraid of losing the advantage he has…he gets extremely nervous and self-destroys…its why he missed that easy FH…
No hawkeye, its not mental anxiety imo. How do you explain that FH into the net when he had SP in the first set TB? He’s a bit slow to get into position to hit that FH thus hitting into the net. The mental anxiety should have started right during the second set, afrer losing tge first set in that manner, not till he had SP in the TB. Anixety also should happen when he’s about to lose the match, not when he had the chance to win the set. He’s not Berdych!
It’s mental frailty when he can’t serve out the set as he should have in the first set.
Hawkeye, like I said, dont expect Rafa to be in top form match after match. After scrapping past Anderson, his level could dip in the next match and that’s exactly what happened. He played poorly and lost, and again like I said, I saw and knew he didnt play well so he losing it and in this manner, though disappointing but not surprising to me.
@ lucky 5:04pm,
not suddenly…he has been doing it the whole year now…
beating Stan in Shanghai: not to take anything away from Rafa but Stan did not look himself in that match…TBH Rafa did not have to do much..
in the Basel final Rafa played well and lost because Fed was better in key moments..
in Paris he played worse yet he could have beaten Wawa but self-destructed when it mattered…he lost the match due to his insane errors…
The failure to serve out sets happened since last year, its nothing new.
Nats, Rafa lost the first set and so had to go the distance to win. Having to go the distance meant Rafa wasnt good enough to win in straight sets, simple as that, nothing to do with exhaustion. However, there’s the cumulative effect after four weeks of extended play match after match.
nats.
I pretty much agree with your thoughts. This loss was a step back as far as I am concerned. People here saying that Rafa needs rest is also scary. Yes, he’s played a lot now but that’s what he would normally do this time of the year. The truth is that Rafa hasn’t played much this year simply because he’s been knocked out of tournaments much earlier than usual. So saying he’s tired as though this is the end of a normal season when he would be in the semis and finals of slams and Masters events, is kind of concerning.
Yes it’s good that he will get a week of rest, but some here don’t seem to realize that Rafa is a tennis player and has to play. Not playing enough this year is why he didn’t have the rhythm and timing on his shots and why he didn’t have confidence.
Rafa said himself that he needed more match play. So this was a good thing. The little niggles like the knee and the ankle don’t seem to be a big concern. I think the bigger concern is that Rafa has to play all these three setters. He kept losing the first sets of matches in Basel. He was battling and playing longer to win in that tournament. While it was great to see him fighting back, I don’t know that he can do this on a regular basis at this point in his career.
@ native,
very well said!
And the tiredness excuse makes even less sense when you observe the fact that Rafa ended up playing long matches because he kept losing first sets…one can certainly not state that Rafa would have been physically exhausted in the first set of the match…
We have to agree to disagree. Why would Rafa suddenly get nervous when serving for the set and lost serve, when in the previous match, he could even save MP? Unless he’s suffering from some physical ailment that caused him to feel anxious, i dont see the logic, esp when he had beaten Stan at Shanghai.
And i find it strange that when he faltered in that Basel final, everyone was not so disappointed but not when he played poorly this QF and lost serve?
luckystar, you and I are on the same page here. Rafa played below his best yesterday, making too many UEs and not getting his first serve in. He needs to button down the his serve.
He’s been doing that all year uncharacteristlically failing to serve out matches. A rookie mistake.
All nerves. Same as when a rookie gets ahead of a top ranked players but gets tight trying to hold.
You see this all the time in tennis.
Rafa played a much better match against Fed in Basel. Last night was no comparison other than he lost both.
It’s not that he lost, but how.
Yes, agree to disagree.
Im not sure he’s playing fewer matches this year; hes winning fewer matches and losing many matches. Todate, he has played 77 matches and there’s still WTF to play. In 2013 he played 82 matches including 5 at WTF, so effective he had played 77 matches up to Paris Masters, no difference from 2015. The difference may be that he plays more 3 setters in 2015 and hence spends more time on court.
I dont think we can rule out physical exhaustion after four weeks of long matches.
No doubt he’s tired. I’m sure Stan is too by the way he played. He had many more UEs than Rafa (who had around 30 or so).
I rule it out as the biggest factor because of the moments in the match where he had critical UEs.
And Fed indoors at 80% career W-L record is a different kettle of fish altogether than Stan who is a mediocre 50% career indoors losing as often as he wins.
sanju, it doesn’t seem as if there is a knee or ankle issue. Yes he had his knee taped halfway through 2 matches because he felt something but he said later on that it was nothing. and he didn’t practice or play with the tape in his recent matches. He also felt something in his right foot during practice before the Anderson match but he and U. Toni confirmed that it nothing.
augusta posted a video of the interviews on R3 match thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rnhvrN8c6I
U.Toni said ‘It was nothing serious………I hope’
But then if there really was any kind of problem he wasn’t going to let on before the match, was he?
#The is the Eeyyore in me speaking
All I can say is that if Rafa is physically exhausted after four weeks of matches, then that is concerning. I don’t think its how many tournaments he’s played, it’s how hard he’s had to work to win matches. While it’s great to see him coming from behind, it means that he also has to work harder. He’s fighting so hard to win these best of three matches and it takes a toll on his body.
There is also no question that Rafa hasn’t played as much this year, unless we are trying to kid ourselves. Rafa did not get to one semi or final in a slam this year. He wasn’t able to go deep in a majority of the matches he played. Should we recap the record this year?
AO – quarterfinals
RG – quarterfinals
Wimbledon- second round
USO – third round
I rest my case.
hawkeye,
I agree with you post @ 5:08 pm. You got to the heart of it. We all know that Rafa is going to lose. That’s a given. But it’s how he loses that matters. In Basel he gave it his best and pushed Fed to three sets. He was in it all the way and then Fed got the break that would allow him to serve out the match. That was a loss I could live with, absolutely!
There is no comparison between that loss and last night. Rafa gave that match away. It’s how he lost, not the fact that he lost.
Do I think it’s the end of the world? No! But it reminds us that Rafa has more work to do. I think there will be ups and downs as Rafa works to get back to his best. Last night’s loss is one that I find tough to live with, but it is what it is.
Rafa will have some rest and then get ready for the WTF!
Agreed. Basle loss was indeed a good loss.
Rafa said it himself, he was tired, that explains everything.
No it really doesn’t. It’s about when he tightened up.
I thought we agreed to disagree.
@ native,
agreed. I was encouraged by his tennis in Basel…last night I realized that there is much more to be done in Rafa’s camp…and it is so disappointing…
ed251137 says:
November 7, 2015 at 9:28 am
Why Agassi?
This was just a reflection from Lucky’s post at: Luckystar says:
November 7, 2015 at 8:41 am
Agassi, like Rafa, was also full of charisma and a crowd favorite who fought against the odds.
Agassi was the last great tennis love of my life until Rafa came along.
legend
Great player but Sampras owned him.
Great player but Sampras owned him.
What’s that got to do with it?
I don’t choose my favourites on the basis of h2h results.
I have the feeling that a good serve is crucial to Rafa nowadays. if he can’t get it going then his mental strength starts to wane during the match. It has never been easy for him but now it’s, like I say, crucial.
Off clay, I’d say that’s always been the case.
He’s sorely in need of a reliable 2nd serve. These days Nole is able to summon up a lethal 2nd seemingly at will when he needs it most. Rafa does occasionally when he is full of confidence but not with Nole’s regularity.
Yes, the serve is the key. He makes life difficult for himself by having to work too hard to hold his serve.
ed,
Absolutely! I’ve been saying this for some time.
I understand that Rafa is open to all suggestions regarding his game, maybe he could have a seminar with his fans to iron out what needs to be done. We are happy when Rafa is winning so we have a vested interest in his prospects.
Face to face with Rafa? Book a date and a venue and I’ll be there.
Nadline10 that’s an awesome kewl idea!!!!
I’ve sent it along to Benny!!!!
Let’s see where this goes!
Nadline10 that’s an awesome kewl idea!!!
I’ve passed it along to Benny!!!
Let’s see where it goes!
@at 2:59 pm,
.
Someone keeps writing fantasies about his imaginary friend (Benny) – it must be mental.
Respectfully, please keep this about tennis and not about posters (as most here have done) including yourself except when it comes to me.
For your reference…
I. No personal insults.
A. Calling someone an idiot is an insult. Telling someone that they made an idiotic comment is not an insult (although the post will likely be deleted).
II. No personal attacks.
A. Insensitive comments about someone’s family.
B. Constant harassment (saying they are are an idiotic tennis fan, etc.)
@ 4:51 pm
X (should be). No the player’s PR manager-related fantasy stories.
Please keep this about tennis and not about a player’s PR manager-related fantasy stories.
It’s only a little joke. I don’t see what the problem is. It’s not directed towards anybody and there is no harm.
However, you are directly insulting me and I have done nothing insulting to any Rafans since site rules are established.
Again, I kindly request that you show me the same respect.
I’ve since apologized to you if you’ve been offended by what I’ve saiid and if you missed it, I do it again here.
@ 5:52 pm
.
I am kindly joking too.
.
May I ask again, what (&when) you apologized for?
When you call me “mental” and the connotations that invokes, I take offence to that. It is a very different context than saying that Rafa is struggling mentally with anxiety as even he has admitted. There is nothing wrong with that.
I tried to find the link but could not which is why I apologized again for anything I’ve said in the past about you that you’ve been offended by.
I would hope that would be acceptable to you.
If you cannot accept my apology then, at the very least, I again kindly and repectfully request that you respect the site rules.
@6:08 pm
.
I commented your fresh “joke”, not the past.
Respectfully, it was an insult directed to a poster here (myself) and a violation of the site rules as opposed to my joke.
my post at 3:06 pm was the response to luckystar 12:38 pm,
Rafa said he felt tired:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTOaxnlUcAAqT3_.png:medium
of course he felt tired when he lost the first set and the way he lost it…
Rafa’s first sentence says it all…
I read that on VB. So Rafa is being honest as always, saying he did not deserve to win when he missed so many big points. He also did admit to feeling tired.
Rafa had his work cut out with the draws he had having to beat the giants and big hitters one after the other. The only one he escaped was Isner. Federer looked invincible until he met Isner and he lost. Rafa is bound to be mentally and physically exhausted.
Did Rafa have a post match interview?
@ augusta
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTOaxnlUcAAqT3_.png
***************************************
Just as I said. He didn’t play a good match probably due to fatigue.
Mostly mental though because he mostly had bad UEs on the important points.
Yes! Absolutely agree! Let’s not parse what Rafa himself said and only take the part that we wish to hear. He said he didn’t deserve to win when he missed so many big points. So why did he miss them? Mental!
Is it the end of the world? No way! I guess we can’t expect Rafa to sort this all out and never have a step back. I like to think that this loss can only motivate Rafa to work harder.
I would like to see Rafa try to win more efficiently, capitalize on his break opportunities and close out sets when he needs to do so. Will it happen all the time? No. Rafa has had trouble closing out matches even when he was at his best.
Think about the 2008 Wimbledon. Rafa was up two sets, yet Fed came back and won two TB’s to take it to a fifth set. Think about the 2013 RG. Rafa was serving for the match in the fourth set and couldn’t serve it out. He ultimately lost that set in a TB.
So we know that Rafa can have these kinds of troubles. But it didn’t cost him the match. He found a way to win.
Too bad he didn’t get Cahill for co-coach.
Halep is lucky to have him as coach now. I bet it pays big dividends for her.
Halep has appointed Halep as coach.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTOaxnlUcAAqT3_.png:medium
Rafa needs someone who can communicate in Spanish.
No he doesn’t. His English is great.
Novak successfully added Becker and Fed added Edberg.
You don’t give Rafa enough credit on his language skills.
Rafa needs to find ways outside of his comfort zone or it will continue to shrink.
So you now know my frustration after the Basel loss. I knew then at that time that Rafa was still way off from getting back and I wasnt sure that Rafa would be ready for 2016 as there’re only two events left this year. So, Paris gone and Rafa wasnt doing any better.
BTW, physical exhaustion does affect the mind, resulting in not being able to think clearly. Rafa was certainly not good enough on the HCs hence all the three set matches and sometimes coming back from the brink of defeats. Fatigue has finally caught up with Rafa as he admitted to feeling tired.
If he hadn’t been doing it all year and this was an isolated incident then I’d agree.
I’d also tend to agree had I missed some or all of the match. The scoreline was no indication of Rafa’s problems. Stan was not good. He had over 40 UEs.
Stan made 42 UEs but he had 37 winners; Rafa made 30 UEs but he had 22 winners. You cant just look at UEs esp when the player concerned is playing more attacking tennis.
Stan won 94 points to Rafa’s 88.
You know what kind of year that he has, so?
I’m not.
Too often this year that differential has been negative this year compared to other years.
Again, it was when he struggled that was similar to earlier this year. While not near as bad as his worst level this year, it was a backward step and a lost opportunity to face Novak which he needs to do win or lose.
We are agreeing to disagree as per your earlier suggestion, are we not? 🙂
In other words, for the last few posts we are adding nothing new and obvious that we won’t change each others minds on the matter.
In the first place why the frustration (over this loss)? As I said, fatigue caught up with Rafa and so he had a bad day at the office. I have already seen that Rafa is/was still some way off from his normal level, when he lost the final match at Basel. No loss is a good loss esp when the loss happens in a final.
Whether he’ll still have matches like this after a good week’s of rest, or he’ll get better and wins more easily instead of still struggling, we have to wait and see how he fares at the WTF.
Nothing new here. Frustration already explained. How he lost.
I agree to disagree.
Yep, I agree to disagree.
Luckystar says:
November 7, 2015 at 5:49 pm
Rafa said it himself, he was tired, that explains everything.
***************************************
What Rafa says is all that counts.
Exactly but that’s not all he said.
#CherryPicking
hawkeye,
Sorry, I didn’t see your comment before I posted mine! But we did say the same thing! Yes, this is what happens all the time. Comments from Rafa are selectively reposted, sometimes leaving out other points that he made.
You have been trying to make the point for months now, that Uncle Toni has been critical of Rafa’s tennis and Rafa has been, too. Yet as you rightly noticed, there is no response when you make these points. Rafa called his forehand “vulgar” after that loss in Rio to Fog. Yet if any of the Rafa fans here dares to be somewhat critical of Rafa, then they get slammed.
The truth is that players must look at their games with a critical eye. They must figure out what is working, what they are doing well and what is not working. That’s the only way they can get better or continue to compete well. If Rafa and Uncle Toni just kept saying all year – oh everything is sunshine and roses, they would be lying to themselves and the rest of us.
Well said NNY. You have to look at the full picture not just cover up what you don’t want to see.
So disappointed Rafa didn’t try to land Cahill as co coach once he was available.
I think he could do wonders and still for Jalep even though English is not her first language.
Rafa said more than that. So don’t just quote part of what he said. He said that he deserved to lose because he didn’t play the big points well.
Rafa doesn’t make excuses and neither should his fans. Things are taken out of context or ignored entirely and then people parse what Rafa just to support their view.
I am with hawkeye and nats regarding this issue. If it was tiredness, then Rafa would not have been able to make the match competitive at all. Tiredness doesn’t just affect a player on the big points. That’s what hawkeye has been trying to say. Rafa has been doing this all year, flubbing on the big points. He wasn’t tired all year, was he?
How about that overhead smash that he would make 99.9% of the time? That was mental, too. He lost it in the crucial moments. If he was truly that fatigued then there is no way he could have even got it to two TB’s. So that does not hold water with me.
That says it all.
nativenewyorker7 says:
November 7, 2015 at 8:49 pm
—Rafa said more than that. So don’t just quote part of what he said. He said that he deserved to lose because he didn’t play the big points well.—
===
.
People know. Scroll up until the comment nadline10 says:November 7, 2015 at 5:28 pm.
augusta you and I accept that there’s nothing to be added to what Rafa has said. Others can talk amongst themselves it won’t change anything.
nadline (at 10:34 pm),
http://emoticonhq.com/images/ICQ/thumbsup.jpg
There is a basic flaw in the argument of all those who claim Rafa’s problems this year are mental.
Rafa’s problems are physical . So this causes him anxiety as he is used to relying on his game and he is used to winning. Not only did he undergo surgery last year, he has been repeatedly injured , knees, back, wrists. especially last year. Piecing together statements made by different members of his team, they have said they need to extend his career.What this means is his career cannot continue with his old game i.e. his body can no longer take it like Delpo’s couldn’t take his game. We have also seen that his forehand is AWOL. His serve is bad. His legs are not that fast. Probably the damage to his body has reduced his speed and movement so that he is no longer in the correct position fast enough to make his lethal shots. If he tries to force his body he will end up like Delpo.
It has been repeatedly stated that he is adopting new patterns of play. If he was mentally ill, why would his team adopt this inopportune moment to cause him more problems by forcing him to change his game?
No, the problems are physical. He is adopting new patterns of play to adapt to his physical limitations so he could still win like Fed adopted more net rushing after 2013.
As for native’s assertion that he makes the overhead 99.9% of the time, I am sure she cannot find 99.9% THIS YEAR but only in earlier years which is not relevant for the argument.
I think nats agrees with me at least on the main argument: Rafa’s anxiety is the effect , not cause of his poor game. hawkeye and native claim Rafa is mentally ill. But their contention cannot be fitted to a rational model ( no pun intended).
Mary,
Reading your post one might think that Rafa should just throw in the towel and call it a career! What I said about Rafa stands. Your laundry list of Rafa’s problems indicates that he might as well hang up his racket!
The way Rafa played against Stan is not going to benefit his body. Playing a lot of three set matches is not going to help his body. While it’s great to see Rafa coming back and fighting the way he has been able to do in the past, it’s not doing his body any favors.
I don’t know what you think can be done at this point in his career. Rafa cannot change his core game. It is what it is. He’s not going to play serve and volley for heaven’s sake! Adopting new patterns of play is not going to change his physical condition as you describe it.
Also, please do not presume to speak for me or put words in my mouth. If you have been reading my comments, then you would know that I have made it a point to say repeatedly that Rafa does not have any kind of specific anxiety disorder. Unless you are reading selectively you would know that! In that regard, hawkeye and I do not agree.
Your last sentence is kind of insulting. Rational models have nothing to do with it. If you want to disagree, then try to do so without insulting those with whom you disagree.
Rafa makes that overhead! Enough said. What’s more, you know it and so does everyone else.
You are describing Rafa as a player who has been ravaged by injuries. Suffice to say, I do not agree with you. We can disagree without stating that those who differ are not using an argument that can be fitted to a rational model. That is a kind of insult that is wrapped in a sentence designed to make it not to be an insult. But that is precisely what you are saying.
native, are you saving Rafa has not suffered serious injuries? He has probably not played any full season at 100%.
Obviously you prefer to be in denial about physical injuries of Rafa which are a matter of record.
But what puzzles me is why do you prefer to believe Rafa is mentally sick?
If Rafa is mentally sick, no rational team would try to put additional pressure on him to make him change his pattern of play if his game was prime. Why fix what ain’t broke. Clearly his game was broke hence the need for changed patterns. The rational model referred to is for the team’s actions, not your thinking.,
I do not know that Rafa makes that overhead. If it is 99.9% this year as you claim, then you should produce evidence of 999 instances out of 1000 opportunities this year when Rafa made that overhead to support your statement. A tired Rafa with the game he has displayed this year is more likely to not make that overhead. I am sure you know that right position and timing are essential for success of overhead shot. His mental illness had nothing to do with it.
Physical injury along with the new time violation rule turned to anxiety.
Rafa’s not doing anything that new. He’s trying to play like he did in 2013.
#NothingNew
Yes, he is trying 2013 so it is not entirely new but new as compared to his default game. But as he said at the beginning of the year, he is 2 years older and we shouldn’t expect the same results. Obviously he was referring to his body being in not so good condition compared to 2013 and not to any mental illness. Uncle T said it was tough for Rafa to accept losses.
Mary,
Since you are stating that I believe Rafa has a mental illness, I would appreciate you backing up that claim before you ask me to back up my claim that Rafa would make that overhead 99.9% of the time. Apparently, I have more faith in Rafa’s ability to hit overheads than you do.
So please show me where I specifically stated here that Rafa has a mental illness. The only way to have a reasonable and respectful discussion, is if my words are not twisted or distorted or outrightly misrepresented.
I also don’t think hawkeye ever stated that Rafa has mental illness. Any kind of anxiety issue would not fall under the category of mental illness per se. Millions of people have various degress of anxiety. Even though hawkeye believes that this some kind of specific anxiety disorder, I have disagreed with him on numerous occasions. He did provide an interview with Rafa in which he does use the word “anxiety”. So since you are equating anxiety with mental illness, do you think that Rafa was calling himself mentally ill?
I was willing to have a discussion with you with the caveat that it was in good faith. However, deliberately continuing to misrepresent what I said about Rafa, is not showing good faith. Therefore, I have nothing more to say to you on this subject.
nativenewyorker7 says:
November 7, 2015 at 11:10 pm
–I also don’t think hawkeye ever stated that Rafa has mental illness…Even though hawkeye believes that this some kind of specific anxiety disorder…—
===
You contradict yourself. Anxiety disorder is a mental illness.
(I’ll continue in next Reply)
nativenewyorker7 says:
November 8, 2015 at 4:33 am
—He [hawkeye63] did provide an interview with Rafa in which he does use the word “anxiety”. So since you are equating anxiety with mental illness, do you think that Rafa was calling himself mentally ill?—
===
.
I have posted this interview (The transcript of Rafa’s post-match press conference in Miami on March 29) several times. It has been hawkeye63, who has equated Rafa’s sentence “I was anxious on court” with ‘anxiety disorder’ (i.e. a mental illness).
¤¤ March 29, 2015
Rafael Nadal
MIAMI, FLORIDA
RAFAEL NADAL: “Because I was playing with too much nerves. I was anxious on court…” ¤¤
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=108015
That’s an inaccurate misrepresentation of my reasoning.
@ Mary 10:42,
I actually agree with your points. In fact I think we are pretty much saying the same thing.
By “physical” you mean deterioration of Rafa’s game mainly due to multiple injuries throughout his career, his grinding style of play and age to the certain extent. That I fully agree. It took toll on his body. It leads to Rafa not trusting his game as he obviously is no longer able to execute his shots as accurately and efficiently as he used to. His on-court speed reduces thus problems in court positioning and sometimes missing the shots that he otherwise would have done in his sleep. It all naturally causes Rafa to become anxious and less confident when under pressure ( and when he becomes conscious that “his game does not reflect his will”).
His serve has always been his weakness so it’s the first to be affected when he is anxious. It deviates and becomes his biggest enemy. At those moments, when feeling nervous, for Rafa the only way out would be not to play long points, but to find his way out through a good serve. If that does not work out, he is forced into rallies…What I noticed this year that most of his opponents do in such situation is keep the ball in and wait for Rafa’s error or a shorter ball to punish him with the easy winner.
However, the argument around here was (again subject of a different opinion which I respect) that Rafa lost to Wawa (who BTW had 40 UEs) because he was TIRED. IMO the reason is not in being tired (he had two set points in the second set tie-break!), but rather in the fact that Rafa was nervous on key points and losing them for the obvious reasons aforementioned. One cannot talk about ‘physical issues’ in a sense of Rafa suddenly not being able to compete at this stage because he had to play several tournaments in the row. C’mon, Rafa has always been one of the fittest persons on tour and it does not disappear just like that. While we can certainly agree he was feeling fatigued, it is IMO not the reason why he lost.
I say Rafa’s problem in making uncharacteristic errors on key points is due to him being too nervous (therefore being anxious) but I repeat the reason for it I see in Rafa not trusting his current game. Therefore I agree that the origin of Rafa’s anxiety issues is in his game in decline, including his physical limitations caused by his grinding style of play and the multiple injuries throughout his career. It is certainly not ‘mental illness’ and I do not think anyone here is saying that…we certainly have no competence or knowledge on the subject to make such statements…we are here to observe Rafa’s tennis and analyze… that’s all…
I agree with everything in Nat’s great post. Beautiful.
Not rocket science.
I am happy Rafa lost to Wawa as I do not want this Rafa to face Djoko. I want Rafa to meet Djoko only when his game has improved to the point we can say he has at least a 50% chance of winning. Right now, with his vulnerable 2nd serve and his missing lethal shots, Rafa meeting Djoko is like my lamb being led to his slaughter which I cannot bear to see. Rafa will probably be ready by the clay court season next year. If he is not, then he is done for good.
But I do not expect to see a dominating Djoko next year. If not Rafa, Muzz or somebody else is going to stop Djoko.
Under what circumstances would Nada have a 50 percent chance to beat Djokovic? Maybe if they were playing soccer.
Spoken like most federazzi after Nole beat Rafa seven straight and again after Rafa missed seven months and everybody assumed Muzzole was the new world order.
+100 to hawkeye. -100 to Ricky.
I would rather Rafa win than lose regardless of who he is to play next.
I would never wish for Rafa to lose.
^I agree!
Unless Rafa gives us the details, we can argue till the cow comes home but still won’t be able to agree with one another over the reason why he lost.
I do think that given how badly Rafa played his last match, even if he were to win, he would most likely be destroyed by Novak in the SF, and I doubt that would benefit Rafa. I doubt he could be as competitive as in that Beijing final, where he was physically fresher and played freely with no expectation to win hence no mental burden.
There’s still the WTF and if Rafa lands in Novak’s half then playing against Novak will be unavoidable; if not, making the SF in the other half may get him to face Novak, unless he plays poorly not to make it (IOW he won’t be good enough to even make it to meet Novak). We’ll see how much Rafa has progressed vs Novak should they meet at WTF.
Lucky,
I can agree with everything you said in your post @ 11:56 pm. I was the one who begged you to come back. I would normally never do that, but I wanted you here again that much. Over 90% of the time I am in complete agreement with you. However, there will be some times where we disagree and will just have to leave it that way. I am still glad that you are here. I always remember some of the great discussions we had at TT about all things tennis. You and vamosrafa. are the best tennis brains here. I value what you have to say. You will have my respect always! 🙂
It is true that Rafa would most likely have been been destroyed by Novak and no one wants that for him. He would not have been as competitive as in Beijing. He was already tired, so playing again after such a late, difficult match wouldn’t have helped. Although I never want Rafa to lose, in this case maybe it was for the best.
I will look forward to seeing Rafa meet up with Novak at the WTF. After a bit of rest then Rafa can come back and hopefully get a good result..
Hi NNY,
I can explain why I was frustrated when Rafa lost the Basel final but not so much this QF match. After the Shanghai SF when Rafa faltered in his last service game and lost the match, I was hoping he wont do that again but its disappointing he had to repeat that in the Basel final. Fed might be playing well but Rafa had to lose his serve in critical moment during a final was hard to swallow.
I have since come to terms that Rafa is still not back to his usual self and there’s still some way to go. He wasnt clutch when it mattered. He did show improvement in that Anderson match but I feel that match took alot out of him, ending late. As I said, I could sense that he wasnt playing well in the QF match; though I wont say Stan was playing at a high level throughout, Stan did take advantage of Rafa’s short balls and errors. Physical fatigue does affect the mental aspect; maybe Rafa was tense in crucial moment because he knew he couldnt go the distance (due to physical fatigue) should he fail to win the point and then the set.
After the Anderson match, I do feel Rafa has improved on the mental aspect of his game, but he’s not in tip top conditions to do that again and again and so he lost in his next match. There’s room for improvement so maybe we have to adjust our expectations, perhaps the slow HC season will be too soon for him to fully recover; maybe its clay again for him.
Good for you hawkeye! But are you not contradicting yourself? If you never wish to see Rafa lose you shouldn’t be wanting this Rafa to play Djoko because in the present state of his game defeat is ensured. If he loses to Stan or Fognini or Fed or whoever, Rafa’s legacy is not hurt. But if he loses to Djoko, even if Rafa is not the prime Rafa, it would not only impact his legacy, the Djoko fans would make our lives miserable. When Rafa was winning, he was supposed to be doping. Now when he is losing, the new story is he has stopped doping because of BioPassport. As long as Rafa stays out of Djoko’s path in his present condition, life is simpler. But if and when he regains his form, he can answer all questions on the tennis court and we can cheer him on in every match because we know he has a more than 50% chance of winning his next match, no matter who it is.
To put it simply, if the choice is between Rafa losing to somebody not Djoko or losing to Djoko, which would you prefer?
lucky,
Thanks for your response. This is why I have always enjoyed our discussions. We can talk it out without attacking each other personally or distorting each other’s words.
I can understand the frustration with Rafa losing his serve at the end and thus giving Fed the match. Considering that he played well to even it up in the second set, it was unfortunate that it had to end that way.
I have been thinking about the Anderson match since the loss to Stan. As happy as I was to see him come back from the very brink of defeat, it may well have taken a good deal out of him. I do agree with you that Stan was not playing at a high level and I think that was part of my frustration with Rafa muffing the crucial points he had. I don’t know if we will ever know for sure how much may have been Rafa being tired and how much may have been mental fatigue. It is what it is.
I think you are correct about adjusting our expectations. In fact, last night while we were still here discussing the match, Ricky posted something that I think was quite accurate. He said that expectations here were too high. He also said that this kind of a result in taking someone like Stan to two TB’s, would have been considered a good result earlier this year. He did have a point. He can be the voice of reason when some of us are having a difficult time with Rafa losing.
I know that some have hopes for the 2016 AO. I don’t know that Rafa will be ready at that point. I think you are correct in saying that this may take more time. I will try to do my best to adjust my expectations and be realistic. There will be ups and downs. I am trying to focus on the positives with Rafa in these last few tournaments.
Thanks for talking it out! 🙂
NNY, you’re welcome.
“To put it simply, if the choice is between Rafa losing to somebody not Djoko or losing to Djoko, which would you prefer?” The question implies Rafa in current form. If and when prime Rafa returns, the question is irrelevant as we can cheer him on knowing he is ready for Djoko..
I’d rather Rafa to have beaten Stan rather than lose the way he did.
One win is better than nothing.
I’ll never wish a loss on Rafa.
Easy. I pick the scenario where Rafa doesn’t lose like he did last night.
Stupid choice.
I already said I’d never wish a loss on Rafa.
Not rocket science.
hawkeye,
I agree. It’s not a fair question. It’s also not the right question as far as I am concerned. I am with you in wanting the scenario where Rafa does not lose the way he did last night. Now that I have had some time to think about it, I guess it’s best that Rafa didn’t have to face Novak in his present form. After that tough battle into the wee hours, he wouldn’t have much left. But that doesn’t change my belief that I always want Rafa to win.
We had this discussion earlier this year when Rafa lost to Raonic. He would have met Fed in the next round. Some here were pleased because Rafa wouldn’t make Fed fans happy. That is the kind of thinking to which I do not subscribe. Why would I want Rafa to lose to someone to whom he had never lost? That was also a match that was winnable. I wanted Rafa to win and didn’t care that he would be meeting Fed in the next round. He would have gone deeper into the tournament and gotten more points.
Life doesn’t always go the way a player’s fans want it to. Rafa may meet Novak again when he’s not ready or at his best. That’s the sport, as Rafa likes to say. We can’t control it. Neither can Rafa or Novak.
I never wish a loss on Rafa. Period.
nativenewyorker7 says:
November 8, 2015 at 2:10 am
—We had this discussion earlier this year when Rafa lost to Raonic. He would have met Fed in the next round. Some here were pleased because Rafa wouldn’t make Fed fans happy. That is the kind of thinking to which I do not subscribe. Why would I want Rafa to lose to someone to whom he had never lost? —
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OMG! You never let anything go, don’t you. You have brouht my comment up several times! And I have explained you several times that the fantasy stories you have constructed (about my comment) have nothing to do with the reality. The reality is that I have ALWAYS wanted Rafa to win! I never give up during his matches – I’m rooting for him until the end of every match. In March, I expressed my POST-MATCH opinion – i.e. I was realistic AFTER the match. It’s solely YOUR fantasy (or ongoing intentional interpretation) that I have WANTED Rafa to lose!
.
BTW, I wrote my comment (that you brought up) in March, but you wrote (become a realistic?) a week ago:
nativenewyorker7 says, Nov. 1, 2015 at 4:34 pm: “If this was back in the summer, Fed would have cruised to any easy win.”
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTSg2ydUwAATc7b.png:medium
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Your current comment is addressed to hawk. It reminds me that in Spring you were encouraging each other to construct fantasies.
🙂
Never let go… Interesting
My question is this. Is Rafa’s vulnerable second serve due to injury? Are his missing lethal shots due to injury? Rafa hasn’t indicated that he is suffering from some injury this year. In fact, he has said that he is healthy. However, he has spoken about this lack of calm in his matches, especially at crucial moments. So that’s Rafa’s assessment of what has been going on.
If you do not have the speed and reflexes and trying your old serve or hitting that forehand the same way gives you back or shoulder or wrist problems, you try preventive measures. You play differently which may not be as effective when you first try them out. Obviously he cannot play with calm when he is trying new things which aren’t working as well i.e aren’t as reliable as what he was used to. So his changed game is to ensure he can carry on playing ( extend his career). Look what happened to Delpo.
Rafa’s changed game does not necessarily mean he is already injured but that he is trying to extend his career by not doing certain repetitive movements he was used to making but which if repeated could have him out of the game.. His lack of power on his forehand seems to indicate he is trying new movements to power his shots and they are not working as well so far.
How has he changed his game?
hawkeye,
You are correct. Just look at the reaction when I bring up that point. Capital letters, too! I guess that I touched a nerve.
How can I be creating fantasies when all I did was say the truth? Again I repeat, I never, ever want Rafa to lose depending on who his next opponent happens to be. I did say that Fed would most likely have cruised again Rafa and got some grief for it. I do think that Fed could have beaten Rafa back then. So what! He’s still got a ridiculously lopsided advantage in the H2H.
I still wanted Rafa to beat Raonic. I am not the one who talked about Rafa beating Raonic and facing Fed would make his fans happy. Rafa still would have gotten to the semis and had a better result. In fact, I think if someone asked Rafa about it, he would of course always want to win and most likely would not be thinking about his next opponent.
The intensity of this response says it all. 🙂
nativenewyorker7 says:
November 8, 2015 at 4:55 pm
—Just look at the reaction when I bring up that point…—
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Oh, I understood now. You are looking for possibilities to fight for whatever reason!
😆
(I’ll continue in next Reply)
nativenewyorker7 says:
November 8, 2015 at 4:55 pm
—How can I be creating fantasies when all I did was say the truth?—
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Your current fantasy is that you wrote your comment @4:55 pm about something I didn’t write in reality!
🙂
NNY respectfully, I wish to stay out of any altercations with augusta and would prefer to stick to tennis.
I respectfully ask that she return the same respect under the spirit of the site rules.
@5:26 pm
I respectfully ask you not to construct fantasy stories.
🙂
If you are referring to me and Benny, sorry, I can’t see how that personally offends you or in any way violates site rules here.
I will continue to make jokes in good spirit.
Now, you will have to excuse me. I have to get on the horn with Benny now to pass on everyone’s thoughts here on what Rafa needs to do next week!
November 8, 2015 at 5:34 pm
—If you are referring to me and Benny..—
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Oh, not at all!
But, speaking of “Benny”, I’ll keep making jokes of you making your imaginary friend out of Rafa’s PR manager – I guess it’s between the ears.
😆
native, Obviously you cannot back up your claim that Rafa made at least 999 overheads this year out of 1000 opportunities!!! So you might as well accept that your argument was not based on fact. You are attempting to create diversion from this fact by claiming I should produce evidence that you said Rafa is mentally ill. What you said about Rafa flubbing his shot as the reason for his flubbing is evidence enough that you think Rafa is not mentally ok i.e. he is mentally ill. Anxiety when it interferes for nearly a year with a person’s job performance is a disorder and is a mental illness.
Those who claim Rafa’s poor performance this year is due to anxiety, lack of calm etc, and he needs the services of a mental health professional are saying he is mentally ill. A djokovic fan here even claimed Uncle T is selfish and preventing Rafa from seeking help. As if Rafa cannot make decisions for himself. Even assuming Uncle T is a monster holding mentally weak Rafa in thrall it is stretching the limits of credulity to believe Rafa’s parents and everybody else in his team are also held in thrall.
There are so many different discussions and differing opinions on this thread it is hard to assimilate them all, or even keep track of who said what to whom in the tit for tat arguments. It’s too late to enter the fray now but I found myself usually agreeing with Mary, Lucky and Hawks all of whom try not to let emotion get in the way of objectivity.
Rafa and his team know where the problems lie. They are searching for ways to combat them. Rafa is in the process of learning how to deal with the changes called for And has admitted himself how difficult it is to actually put them into practice. He has also said he is going to do it his way.
The practice courts cannot simulate live match conditions. ergo he has to play matches before he can progress. The more matches he wins the better the prognosis. But we have to come to terms with the losses too. Rafa has said more than once ‘you learn more from losing an important match than winning it’.
ed,
Is there a reason you left me out when it comes to agreeing? Or do you think that I have said that Rafa is mentally ill.
Hawkeye. The reason I was depressed post the WaWa match was it because it seemed more like one step forward and three steps back ?
He should have hired Cahill.
It was a horrible match for him in light of his chronic struggles.
All mental mistakes as Stan wasn’t near his best.
It will be a slew road at best.
Rafa’s post-QF-match interview:
(Rafa is staying positive; he needs a few days of rest; he’ll keep practicing hard to be ready for London)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3crc0u_atp-bnppm-rafael-nadal-trop-d-opportunites-manquees-contre-stan-wawrinka_sport
NNY: I dont think you are always as objective as the people I listed. You occasionally react very strongly at an emotional level to things people say. It is not a criticism merely a observation not linked to specific points being argued. I thought I made that clear in my first paragraph when I said I was not entering the fray.
ed,
Then that’s your opinion. Considering some of what has transpired on this site in the past, I hardly think that I have been the sole person to react emotionally. I do not like anyone stating that I said something that I actually did not say. It happens all too often here and I think the purpose is to try to start trouble.
You have reactly very strongly when someone posts something that you believe is false about yourself. So please give me the same rights. I try to ignore as much as I can. I believe that you agreed that Rafa has some kind of anxiety issue. Yet I don’t see you being accused of saying that Rafa is mentally ill. The truth is that certain people are targeted here by the person repeatedly.
I was the one who rejected this idea of Rafa having a specific anxiety disorder. It appears that I can’t win no matter what I say. It’s beyond frustrating and you know exactly what I am talking about.
I think that I deserve better than this from you. We’ve been through a lot on TT and this site. Anyone can react emotionally when they feel that their words are being deliberately misconstrued, including you. I don’t have exclusive rights to that.
Thanks for making yourself perfectly clear on this matter. Now I know where I stand..
You have just confirmed what I said:
You OCCASIONALLY react emotionally to what people say.
If your response above is not an emotional response I dont know what is 🙂
I repeat. All I said was I found myself agreeing most often with the three people I mentioned. You are conveniently forgetting an earlier post I made:
Nov 7th 9.04am
NNY: Good on you for keeping it real.
I tried not to have overly high expectations beforehand but that didn’t stop me from a sense of bitter disappointment when he messed up on that smash which sealed the loss in two sets. Koenig kept rabbiting on about the brilliant tennis and what an exciting match it was. I agree with you – it was more about mistakes from both players. In other words an ugly match rather than exciting.
I suggest we drop this storm in a teacup matter and continue our friendly discussions as of old.
Again, IMO Rafa needs to alter and adjust his game, find new solutions, make life easier for himself…I just imagine how great it would be if Rafa implemented something new and workable and surprised his rivals…He would gain tons of confidence and would inflict some fear in them! Rafa really needs some new approach which will contribute to improving his game…he has done it before, his game has evolved and improved, he can do it again…he is motivated and his fighting spirit is there…I just hope he stays injury free in 2016…
Practicing hard is just one step in the process…Rafa needs competitive matches and he knows it…I know that Rafa facing Nole at this stage would not be kind to Rafa…but I also believe that Rafa would have liked to be in the semis no matter what…sooner or later he will have to face Novak so it would just help the process…I remember in 2011 when asked about his loses to Novak, and how he coped with it Rafa said something to the effect that playing Novak means playing in the finals of the tournaments which was an indication that he (Rafa) was doing well…
Rafa is smart…he will find solutions…I believe in him…
Vamos Rafa!
Rafa is smart and he will find solutions…
ed,
I only just happened to see your last response to me on November 9 @ 8:112 am. I appreciate your kind words.
Of course, we are always going to have our friendship of old. 🙂
That goes without saying!
Thanks! 🙂