Djokovic wins another title, end Tsonga's run in Shanghai

Novak Djokovic won his 17th consecutive match and captured a second straight title on the Asian Swing by rolling over Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 6-2, 6-4 in the final of the Shanghai Rolex Masters on Sunday. Djokovic, whose current streak also includes titles at the U.S. Open and in Beijing, needed just one hour and 18 minutes to prevail.

Djokovic dropped serve once in the first set but more than made up for that hiccup with three victorious return games.

A more competitive second set saw Tsonga kick things off with four consecutive holds. The Frenchman, however, never had any prayer against his opponent’s serve. In fact, Tsonga won only a single point in five return games. A double-fault by the underdog on break point at 4-4, ad-out proved to be decisive.

Highlights:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2xIYR8gyv4]

“Today the key was to get as many serves back into play to Jo because he has one of the biggest serves in the game,” Djokovic assessed. “He has shown that in the second set, with some break points early in the set. He came up with some aces, some big serves.

“Generally, I felt always in control of the match. I felt like I’ve done everything right. I’ve won many of my service games very comfortably. I didn’t allow him to get into the rhythm, get into the match. Today’s match, and overall the tournament, it’s gone incredibly well for me.”

[tweet https://twitter.com/SHRolexMasters/status/655723508559798272]

The week still went extremely well for Tsonga, who prevailed in consecutive three-setters over Albert Ramos-Vinolas, Kevin Anderson, and Rafael Nadal.

“I’m very satisfied,” the runner-up assured. “To come back at your best level, it’s always a long process. I’m happy today to be back really close to the top 10. Like I said just before, it gave me energy to continue to work hard and try to achieve other good things.”

Tsonga is going to surge six spots to No. 9 in the race to the World Tour Finals. That would put him as the first alternate, which will be especially important if Andy Murray follows through with his threat to skip it and prepare for the Davis Cup final on clay in Belgium.

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254 Comments on Djokovic wins another title, end Tsonga's run in Shanghai

  1. I think that’s possible. I thought that Fed was the only one who had a real shot at beating Novak in Shanghai. The courts at Paris and WTF obviously suit his game very well. Does he have back problems again? I wasn’t aware of that.

    I am not sure how I’m going to vote yet.

  2. hawkeye,

    LOL! Absolutely!

    Oh and I voted for Novak losing 2 matches.

    I am glad that you were just joking about Fed. He’s the only one that I can see having a shot against Novak at the upcoming tournaments.

    I sure hope that vmk1 is wrong about when Novak will lose. He will need to continue playing well, because he’s got a ton of points to defend next year.

    I just keep hoping that Rafa will come out playing really well in 2016. The game needs him. Also, I would like him to add to his considerable resume with some more slam wins. I believe that there’s always one more great run in every champion. I hope next year Rafa does it.

    • I don’t think he needs to defend all of those points at all. He can drop 4-5000 and still finish No. 1.

      Besides, everyone starts the year with the same number of points.

      I’ll be watching the Race to London come January. The rankings are too boring ATM.

      I hope you are right NNY.

  3. Dont think he’ll finish as no.1 should he lose 4-5000 points. Someone else will pick up those points. A drop of 4 to 5K points may mean a swing of double of those points. Imagine Murray finishes this year with 9000 points and adds another 2-3000 next year for example and he’ll be close to Novak. It may not be Murray but Stan or Fed or even Rafa, who knows. Rafa has plenty of chances to gain points throughout the whole season should he get back to his previous high level come next year.

  4. hawkeye is right. Everybody starts with the same number of points next year i.e. zero in the race. So Rafa has no advantage over Djoko merely because he has so few points to defend. To take an extreme example, if there were 1000 players and you skipped the entire season and started at #1000, you have the advantage of knowing that you have no points to defend! So you can play every match totally relaxed ( if your aim is defending last year’s points!). But if you want to win points, you have to win matches and that holds for everyone, not just Djoko. So the pressure to win is there for anyone who wants to win points.

    • I suppose we’re not talking about only the race but how soon someone could threaten the no.1 ranking of Novak. I think the pressure is on Novak to defend his slam and masters titles; if Rafa starts to win important titles meaning hes playing well enough to compete, surely Novak wont want to meet him before the finals so as not to run the risk of winning fewer points should he lose thus affecting his race for year end no.1. The same could be said of Stan too, Novak may not want to meet Stan too soon in the draw at the slams.

      The top players certainly hope to win and also to successfully defend as many points as possible to at least keep their rankings if not improve them.

      • Not clear what your point is, Lucky. I am sure Djoko wants to win as much as possible and so is the case for every top tennis player. All of them feel the same pressure, the pressure to win matches and no player will feel he can relax simply because he hadn’t played the event the previous year. I remember in 2013 fall season a poster, known for being confused between rolling and YTD ranking points, blithely claimed that Rafa, who was then on a quest for no 1 ranking, did not have to worry about Paris because he hadn’t played it the previous year!

    • Rafa doesnt have any advantage over Novak but Rafa has plenty of chances to win points should he play better than this year.

      I remember Rafa said that after Wimbledon this year, he can only gain points as he had nothing to defend. Clearly to be able to defend and also add points matters to these players. They play to win and to get a good ranking in the process; maintaining a good ranking will be important where seeding for thr draws ate concerned.

      • I think we should all take up Gujarati as a way to learn something new every day.

        Meanwhile how awful to read of the claim for spousal support by Ryan Sweeting, from whom Kaley Cuoco – his wife of less than two years, and $1m-per-episode star of The Big Bang Theory – has filed for divorce. According to all the best news sites, she maintains that since they married he became addicted to painkillers for a back problem (attention, Roger) and has done nothing to address his dependency. So sad, as they say.

        No kids, and there is a pre-nup, so you have to wonder how much Ryan (net worth $2m in 2013) can cream off Kaley in order to set up his future, poor thing. Tennis players are role models, we keep hearing…

  5. It is true that having no points to defend is not in itself an advantage because the bottom line is winning as has been proved this year with Rafa not able to add that many points in the 2nd half of the year, so far, where he is defending very few points because he hasn’t won any tournaments..

    Where it matters is IF he wins tournaments from the beginning of the year, he will move up the 52 weeks rankings in no time and players who won maximum or a load of points who fail to earn those points again this year will move down the rankings quickly.

    If it was true that not having points to defend in itself ensured moving up the rankings then the players who performed the worst in one year will automatically move up the rankings the following year, but that it not the case.

  6. I voted for two matches…I believe Novak will lose in Paris and at least one match in WTF…and I honestly believe the 2016 AO trophy will be in Rafa’s hands… 🙂

    • Hope so about Rafa..but long shot

      If Rafa gets his double career slam before Novak gets his career slam, it will shut many mouths for some time.

      • Also, what if Rafa wins another Olympic Singles Gold? So far Djoker only has a bronze and Fed’s got a silver. One of them will retire without an Olympic Singles Gold Medal.

  7. It’s a simple equation. Play well and the rankings will follow.

    In spite of his erractic performance and paltry handful of wins, Rafa played well enough to claw his way up the rankings and clinch his place in the Race – the modest goal he set for himself earlier in the year. He has always been a realist. Unlike so many players who talk about reaching No.1 after a handful of stellar upsets before sinking to their true level.

    #WorkInProgress

  8. I like Tomic more than Kyrgios… I wish there were more players in the mix but it’s not easy to be amongst the best, easier said than done.

  9. Not liking Tomic or Kygrios but i do see an improvement in Tomic’s attitude and in his tennis. I know both guys have talent, and Tomic does play a bit like Murray, and I feel he has better tennis brain than Kygrios has.

    Tomic may be feeling threatened when all the attention now is focused on the new kid on the block and Tomic may be the forgotten old kid now. I feel Tomic is finally waking up and getting more serious with his tennis career, for he certainly doesnt want to be outshone by the new kid Kygrios.

    I liked what I saw from him in that QF match vs Novak. I was thinking about Murray playing similarly against Novak at that Rome 2011 SF and was hoping for more or less the same in their SF match. Alas, its not what i hoped for. Tomic even performed better than Murray vs Novak! Tomic’s ranking is heading the right direction, good for him and good for tennis in general, dont want to see another wasted talent.

    Among the youngsters, I like Thiem and Alex Zverev, the two most promising IMO.

    • Lucky: I feel despondent for the future of tennis every time I watch Kyrgios play. I know I am out of touch but I do not go along with the widely held view that tennis needs characters like this: the thought of this oafish, attention seeking egomaniac muscling good players into the ground with sheer brute force is not a prospect I relish 🙁

      You’re right about Tomic heading in the right direction. He is maturing and I liked what I saw at Shanghai.

      To Thiem and Alex Zverev I would add Bernard Coric to the list of promising youngsters emerging.

  10. Yep, never like Kygrios’ attitude, behaved like a spoilt kid. Not only that, I can’t stand his attention seeking, sense of entitlement kind of behaviour. Its as if he thinks hes that talented that he can get a pass behaving like a brute and passing crude remarks about his fellow tennis player. He’s already 20 yet not grown up in his behaviour, Thiem of similar age behaves much better out there.

    • Ricky,

      Tomic is funky and unconventional. I think he just tries to throw off his opponents with his unorthodox game. I am not saying that he doesn’t have a decent game, but I don’t think it’s awesome. Different strokes for different folks! 🙂

  11. we may not like Kyrgios but he has outstanding talent and his serve is huge…honestly, he is still a baby…he may and most likely will change as he matures…I think Australian Tennis Association will be involved in taking care of him…they can’t afford such talent going to waste…

    if it was not for Nick’s attitude and attention seeking he would be considered dangerous for the big 4 even at this stage…he has the level of impudence and courage to go after those on the top…if his head is fixed he will be a real force out there…I honestly do not see Borna Coric being a threat, at least not in the near future…and Thiem…he simply does not have the energy or so to say the guts to challenge the best atm…

    • Nats: How we all judge behaviour will be governed largely by cultural background and age. What constitutes bad or unacceptable behaviour differs widely between different cultures. I prefaced my comments about Kyrgios by acknowledging I am out of touch. I may be a dinorsor from another age but remember vividly the shock and horror with which my generation’s swinging London antics were greeted by our parent’s. Luckily they didn’t know the half of it 😉

      To get back to tennis and the different attitudes to Mr.K’s behaviour the hope is he will harness his innate talents, learn to control his exhibitionism and show more courtesy to his opponents – not to mention ball boys, court officials and other people in authority.

      • he will be top 5 in the near future??? you have a cristal ball? How can you be certain about it?

        When I mentioned “energy” I meant to say that his tennis is not that pushy or so to say insistant to challenge the best…he fades away easily…I was not talking about his physical energy of course, it is rather ridiculous for the people to think that…but tennis does not rely on physical energy either…he has to have the brains and the sense of arrogance and belief that he could beat the best…IMO Thiem is not there yet…and I highly doubt he is going to win a slam in the near future…but that is just my opinion…I am glad to be proved wrong and I wish the kid all the best…

      • ^Yes!

        Nobody is saying Thiem is there yet. We are talking about this potential. Of course he has to develop more skills, but he’s already got the core game and also has shown mental toughness. Champions aren’t made overnight.

    • He has that elusive Big Match mentality and doesn’t buckle. As for not being able to challenge the best – ask WaWa what happened in Madrid last year 🙂

    • Thiem had beaten Stan if I’m not wrong and ran Murray close in another match. Thiem is only one year older than Kygrios and has already won three titles if I’m not wrong within this season. Kygrios OTOH has done nothing much after beating Rafa at Wimbledon,

      • He beat Federer at Madrid and – as we all know – Wawrinka this summer. So that’s a further two Top 4 scalps. Not much by way of titles but it’d be nice to see him harness his undoubted attitude to string a few wins together while ideally wearing a muzzle during play.

      • @ lucky,
        so beating Fed in Madrid and beating Wawa twice in 2015 is nothing much???
        Wow…that is an interesting point of view…

      • natashao2013 (at 8:52 am).

        Beating Rafa is all that matters in the Tennis World. [According to professional TV commentators…]

        🙂

      • BTW, Thiem is 2 years older than Nick not just one…that is a lot in tennis…at the age of 22 Rafa had already won 5 GSs, 12 Masters titles and the Olympic Gold…Thiem is well behind the schedule if he is to make difference in tennis…just saying…

      • Nata, so what with beating so and so, you still have to win the titles! Coric has also beaten Rafa and Murray, still, he has no title to show. Kygrios too.

        Players like Rafa, Novak and Murray were already winning titles when at similar age to Kygrios and co.

    • Attention seeking is part of Kygrios character. His style of play is probably due to his attention seeking nature. His tennis wont be great if he rein it all in and plays like a normal tennis player. Its his eractic or eccentric style that makes it difficult for his opponents to deal with. He doesnt seem to have a good tennis brain so his tennis becomes more a case of hit or miss, not unlike Monfils’ though Kygrios’ is a more attacking style of tennis.

      Players like Dimi or Thiem and now Tomic tends to play a more solid reliable style, or a more ‘normal’ style that is less high risk tennis. JJ OTOH, is a bit like Kygrios, ie going for broke and no margin for errors. I do feel players in this group tend to be those who would succeed, the Big four for eg. play solid and reliable tennis, not go for broke tennis.

      I like Alex Zverev for he’s both attacking and yet has the precision and not going for broke. Hes impressive at Halle this year and at Hamburg last year, he seems to move well on any surface.

      • ATM Nick is all you state and I fully agree..but as I said, I hope he will change…even with all those shortcomings Kyrgios was able to beat Fed, Rafa and Wawa…imagine what he might do if he fixed his temper…

        I disagree that his tennis brain is not good…it had to be good to be able to beat Rafa in Wimby…

        anyway, these arguments are just speculations…we shall how it develops…for what is worth I would love these youngsters to step it up and make some difference in 2016…otherwise, if Rafa is not back to his 100 %, Novak will take it all again…and most importantly he will do it with ease…

      • We’ll have to agree to disagree about Nick and his tennis brain. Serving big and hitting hard without missing can sometimes help you to get there, esp when your opponent wasnt in good form. The thing is, after getting a big scalp, he then fell by the way side in his next match, just like any other ordinary player.

        Even if these youngsters step it up, it wont be so soon that they’ll threaten Novak immediately. I’ll rather rely on Novak’s peer group to do the job of stopping Novak than to depend on these youngsters.

        At the slams Stan is still good to stop Novak at AO and FO. Murray if he still has the belief could stop Novak at Wimbledon,provided Fed is in the other half of the draw. The USO is rather open IMO, any of the top guys could win it; Novak managed winning two out of six finals, not a high success rate.

        All the above is assuming that Rafa has not found his good enough level to challenge Novak and the rest. Rafa may find it though….

      • Why would anyone compare a young player with Rafa? Rafa was a teenage phenom just like Borg. We aren’t seeing that in the game now. Young players are taking more time to develop. Rafa was one of a kind.

      • Lucky,

        I really like your analysis of these young guys. I think you hit the nail on the head with Kygrios in saying that his style is an essential part of his game. He wouldn’t know any other way to play. I agree that Kyrgios doesn’t have a good tennis brain. He just goes for his shots and it’s hit or miss.

        I also agree about Dimi, Thiem, maybe Tomic. They do have more reliable styles of play.

        Zverev is someone I’ve already said that I am keeping my eye on.

  12. I haven’t watched many of JJ’s matches since his dream run in Paris. He continued to play well the following year and reached the Wimbledon SF but thereafter there was little sign of the promise he had shown. I think he has only had a handful of wins against top 20 players.

  13. After a superb opening set Thiem has gone off the boil and errors have crept into his game. He looked to be on the verge of handing the 2nd set to JJ until the Pole choked while serving for the set. Thiem now serving to level at 5-5 – which he does. JJ having let Thiem back into the match holds serve and the pressure is back on Thiem who holds to take it to a TB.

  14. Which JJ takes. We’re going to a third set. After a brilliant opening set Thiem lost his way, fought back to level at 6-6 then played a poor TB.

  15. JJ has a shot to get something going on these courts. I was out for most of the day and didn’t get to see this match. It’s too bad Thiem couldn’t get it done. I will have to remember to try and stay tuned to the tennis channel. I can at least get to see the replays if the times are too crazy.

  16. Jerzy sensed what was happening to Thiem and was able to capitilize on it. Once he had taken the TB he successfully neutralized the home crowd effect.

      • Sounds perfectly plausible to me. He was virtually canonised in Serbia and Mama Djokovic told the world he was the child of god (or as some claimed, THE child of God) at the AO in 2008.

        source Wiki: On 28 April 2011, Patriarch Irinej of Serbia awarded Djokovic the Order of St. Sava I class, the highest decoration of the Serbian Orthodox Church, because he demonstrated love for the church, and because he provided assistance to the Serbian people, churches and monasteries of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Kosovo.

      • Ricky, How do you know he did not say it? nats reads Serbian Press and knows the language too. So the possibilities are Djoko did say it or somebody in the Serbian press reported fake quote. Djoko and his family are perfectly capable of such statements. Fed too is capable of such statements. Rafa and Muzz are not.

      • Oh yes he did say this if this newspaper is to be trusted.

        I only have the paper version (“INFORMER CG” is the name of the paper) and in order to get the on-line version you will have to pay some fee, which I do not want to bother doing, but you are free to do so. The date is October 20, 2015. Just need to google Informer Crna Gora -sport-tennis and you will get the link.

        You all can use google translate and here are some excerpts:

        The Serbian version says:

        the headline is: “Srpski teniski sampion o svojoj dominaciji: NEPOBEDIV SAM!”
        toliko sam dobar da ni sam sebe ne bih mogao da pobedim…
        Novak Djokovic kaze da ne bi znao koju taktiku da primeni kad bi za protivnika imao svog dvojnika. On ima 14.245 bodova na ATP listi, sto je apsolutni rekord.

        and the translation is:

        “Serbian tennis as on his domination: I AM UNBEATABLE!
        I am that good that I would not be able to beat myself’…
        Novak Djokovic states that he would not know which tactics to implement if he was to face himself. He owns 14.245 ATP points which is the absolute record”.

        the first paragraph of the article reads: Prvak sveta Novak Djokovic smatra da je nepobediv! On je svestan da je trenutno toliko dobar pa u sali kaze da ni sam sebe ne bi mogao da savlada!

        translation: The World No1 considers himself unbeatable. He is aware of how good he is at the moment and joked that he would not even be able to defeat himself”.

        and then the article quotes Greg Rusedski statement on Novak:

        Novaku nedostaje samo Roland Garos da bude najveci teniser svih vremena. Sada od njega ocekujemo da osvoji sva cetiri grend slema u jednoj godini I to u 2016.

        translation: Novak is missing only RG title to become the greatest tennis player of all time. Now we expect him to win all four Grand Slams in one year and that in 2016.

        Novak also speaks about not being worried about defending a lot of points next year. he just wants to enjoy the season and there is no room for concern. The whole team is proud of his accomplishments and once the next year comes he will start thinking of that subject. Also concern about defending the points is ancient history for him. it is not what preoccupies him because he enters each tourney to win the trophy, not to defend it..

        I can even take a photo of the whole article if you wish and will post it here so that you can do the translation yourself and make your own judgements…

  17. well, we will just have to agree that we already show support to different youngsters and will continue to follow tennis in the future maybe because of them?

    it would be fun to see all of us here in 4 or more years time, once our favorite players retired, arguing about our new favorite players like Thiem, Kyrgios (call me crazy but I will cheer for him IF he gets his head fixed 🙂 ), Kokkinakis, Zverev…as far as I can see Rafa fan base will be cheering for different players in the future… 🙂

  18. natashao2013 says:
    October 21, 2015 at 11:54 am
    “…….as far as I can see Rafa fan base will be cheering for different players in the future… :-)”

    **************************************
    Highly unlikely in my case. I’ll probably take up fishing in the Balearic Islands. 🙂

    PS
    Just responding to nats post. Anyway this thread has become all things to all men.

  19. Lucky,

    That is exactly what I was going to say. There will never be anyone like Rafa for me ever. That’s why I just try to stay in the moment. I don’t want to think about the time when Rafa will retire. I cannot imagine not being able to watch him play anymore.

    It remains to be seen if I will continue watching tennis. I have watched this sport all my life. I almost gave it up after Borg walked away. But I did continue to watch. I did stop for about two years when Fed was dominating between 2005 and 2007. It was too boring. But then I heard everyone talking about this great Spanish player and decided to watch the 2007 Wimbledon. I have never looked back.

    I can see myself watching, but not as often when Rafa is no longer playing. It won’t be the same.

  20. @lucky 2:29,

    saying that Kyrgios has no tennis brain is really harsh thing to say and I think he proved you wrong already by beating both Fed and Wawa and I certainly hope he proves you wrong soon again (I just wish it does not happen at Rafa’s expense) And saying that Rafa was not in good form at that time is also not accurate: he had just won the RG title over the current No1 and his biggest rival and was full of confidence so your story does not stand…

    BTW the discussion here was about who of those youngsters will be able to challenge the top 4 SOON? So we are talking about the near future hence my comment about Nick…your comments about long run may stand or may not but they are irrelevant for this discussion…Nick did get big scalps at the age of 20 (which Thiem didn’t) and that is the whole point…by the age of 22 who knows what else he will be able to accomplish…those will be long two years… 🙂

      • natashao2013 ( at 10:53 am),

        The point is: tennis balls have a lower bounce on grass courts than on clay and it forces a player to bend lower to return a shot.

    • Augusta is right, Rafa had to go four sets at each of his first few round matches at Wimbledon last year; he also struggled through his FO final match. To say he’s full of confidence is a bit stretching it.

      In fact, after his AO final when he injured his back, he was never the same again. I mean how did Andujar suddenly raised his level so high that he almost beat Rafa on clay at Rio. When did Rafa become so error prone that he was hitting so many UEs against Ferrer at MC and lost; and to make things worse, lost to Almagro for the first time on clay, at Barcelona? And Almagro went on to lose to Giraldo next!

      I feel Rafa’s 2014 FO title was the toughest for him at the FO so far. Rafa had the misfortune of meeting some big serving and big hitting guys at the Wimbledon last year – Klizan followed by Rosol and finally Kygrios.

      Kygrios lost to Murray time and again; unless hes beating the top guys regularly, I’m not going to bet that he’ll threaten the top guys any time soon. Like I said, he’s so hit and miss so sometimes he hits it and that doesnt surprise me but many times he misses it. He was atrocious vs Gasquet at Wimbledon this year, he’s too inconsistent and it seems it all depends on his mood.

  21. @ augusta08,

    that would be a very good excuse if Rafa lost to a top 10 player…but to lose to Nick in the round of 16 when Nick was ranked 144 it takes two: Rafa to be less than 100% (which is possible due to the back issues as you state) but also for Nick to be rather GOOD…that is all I am saying…bear in mind that Rafa beat three players before he lost to Kyrgios: Klizan, Rosol and Kukushkin (all in four sets though)….but that was not bad at all…

    • because Rafa was able to beat three players and he would have done the same with Kyrgios if Nick was not good enough…his back issue (not that terrible obviously since he was able to beat Novak) would have stopped him at the more challenging matches and that is what happened…Kyrgios had belief and held it together…you can go on forever about Rafa being injured etc. but the fact is that you all (including myself TBH) fear when Rafa faces Kyrgios…simple as that…

  22. Rafa wasn’t injured but his back was already not in tip top condition. I was thinking back then during Wimbledon that if Rafa was going four sets each match, he was not going to last, and true enough he lost in R4. I also thought that had it be Raonic that Rafa met, Rafa might also lose that match. Was Kygrios playing any better than Rosol in 2012 to beat Rafa? Rafa was just too vulnerable at Wimbledon these days. Rafa might be playing better in 2014 than in 2012/2013 at Wimbledon but that didn’t change the fact that he’s vulnerable.

    So what if Kygrios has belief? That doesn’t change the fact that he’s hit and miss. He was still losing to Murray or Gasquet or Stan. I believe that on surfaces other than grass, Rafa can and will beat Kygrios.

    • I agree that Kygrios is hit and miss. If not for the win against Rafa at Wimbledon, who would even know or care about him besides Aussies? Unfortunately, Krygios is now known for his big mouth! That comment he made to Stan is the thing that he may well be remembered for and not his tennis.

  23. Back issue of Rafa in 2014 is a fact. So how is nats claiming Rafa was at 100% at FO or that he must have been 100% at Wimbly? Even assuming that Rafa winning FO proved he was 100%, how does it prove he must have been 100% when he lost to Kyrgios? Back had started bothering him from Canada in 2013 and became more serious in AO 2014. I suspect it is because of the back issue that Rafa started exerting more force through his wrist to power his shots which led to his wrist injury in later part of 2014. In the off season Rafa’s team must have realized Rafa needed to change something if his career was not to end so he is trying to play differently. But unlike the changes they made in 2006 when Rafa’s foot injury threatened to end his career, this time Rafa couldn’t adapt as fast because of his age and the fact that he has been playing for so many years that it was hard for his brain to unlearn the old patterns. Can Rafa recover his lethal forehand? Unless he is able to do this, I doubt that Rafa can beat Djoko or Muzz. Rafa can at best be a top 10 player if he cannot have a killer shot. Can he develop a less vulnerable serve?The ease with which he gets broken makes me sometimes wonder whether I am watching ATP or WTA. In any case the Rafa of old is gone. Whether a new invincible Rafa will emerge, we have to wait and see.

    • Mary says:
      October 22, 2015 at 1:11 pm
      —Rafa started exerting more force through his wrist to power his shots which led to his wrist injury in later part of 2014—
      ===
      .
      Rafa injured his (right) wrist during a practice session in Mallorca in July.

    • yeah, you can also claim that Rafa’s game had deteriorated in the last couple of years thus his vulnerability at Wimbly,… in any way with or without back problems Nick unfortunately was able to take advantage of Rafa’s disadvantages…and so did many this year…

      But I am one of those who believe that Rafa will be back to at least near 100% and that if healthy he is set to make some good results in 2016…

  24. nats original argument was that one of the younger set may challenge Djoko for slams and Kyrgios is the most promising. To support this argument she got sufficiently sidetracked into unwittingly doubly discounting Rafa by claiming that he cannot beat Djoko unless he is 100% and he was beaten by Kyrgios when at 100%!

    • I am inclined to think that Rafa displayed some of his best tennis in that 2014 final versus Novak…statements that Rafa was not at his best and still was able to beat Novak are rather strange to me…anything is possible though…Nole’s fans OTOH claim that Novak was not at his100% in that match and that was mainly why Rafa was able to beat him…However, I think Rafa played great tennis and Novak was just defeated…and it happened in four sets which is accomplishment on its own…Novak certainly was fit and in great form since he went on to beat Fed for the Wimby trophy…

      Rafa on grass is not the same as Rafa on clay…he seems vulnerable on grass and we know by now that even if healthy he may end up losing…it may appear to be the back issue or the confidence issue or anything else but the fact is he keeps losing to lower ranked players on grass…BTW beating three players in 2014 was his best record in three years..in 2013 he lost to Darcis (ranked 135) in the Round of 128 and in 2012 he lost to Rosol (ranked 100) in the Round 64…this is why I think it was not only Rafa’s back issue but Nick’s tennis which did the damage…

      • natashao2013 says:
        October 22, 2015 at 2:41 pm.
        —Rafa on grass is not the same as Rafa on clay…he seems vulnerable on grass and we know by now that even if healthy he may end up losing…—
        ===
        .
        Listen to Rafa.
        An interview in Cincinnati on August 14, 2013:
        RAFAEL NADAL: “My knee is healed, is working well for the moment. I felt more trouble on grass because the movements are less stable and I need to play lower than in the rest of the surfaces.”

      • That was 2013.

        On the contrary, this is what Nadal said this year about his condition at Wimbledon in 2014.

        “Let’s see if I am able to compete well then at Wimbledon. I’m so happy to be here, you know. Healthy, that’s the most important thing. Last year I was better, after 2012 and ’13, that I couldn’t play well here. Too many problems with my knees.

        He couldn’t play well in 2012 and 2013 but said that he was better in 2014 and 2015.

        He was healthy according to him in 2014 and 2015 but lost to similarly styled aggressive hard serving players.

        After losing to Kyrgios, Nadal said the following.

        “The thing is this surface, when you have an opponent that he decides to serve and to hit every ball very strong, you are in trouble.

        So, in general, talking about what you need to win in this surface, he did the things better than me.

        Oh, I am satisfied the way that I played this Wimbledon. Is true that my draw was not the best one. All the matches were uncomfortable against players that didn’t give you the opportunity to play a lot.

        I fighted until the end in every single match. I was able to play some good tennis on this surface. That’s something that I was not able to do in the last two years.
        But that’s the tennis. That’s the sport in this surface. I felt in a way I am even not angry today because I feel that I lost the match losing only one time my serve during the whole match. I created my opportunities.

        But I was not able to read his serve during the whole match. At the end on grass, the resume is that. I was not able to read his serve. I was not able to put enough returns inside. We had one break each.

        In the tiebreak he was able to serve better than me. So that’s an advantage. I could serve better on the tiebreaks. But 5‑All in the second set in the tiebreak, second serve, net, inside for him, second serve big. Then he repeat the second serve with 140 miles the second serve.

        You know, that’s happens when you have nothing to lose. You can play that way. Players who really play for being in the last rounds, think about win the titles, it’s not easy to create the second serve 114 5‑All in the tiebreak, but that’s what happened today.

        Congratulations to him. For me, beach (smiling). For me, I going to go to the beach in Mallorca.

        I try my best, as always I do when my physical performance give me the chance to try my best. Last two years I didn’t have that chance to try my best because my knee was not right to compete here.
        But this year I felt the knee was right to compete here. I competed. I think I competed well. Was not enough today, but that’s it.

        The last few years I was not able to compete right because my knee didn’t give me that chance. This year I competed well again. I created myself the right opportunities. I was in the fourth round, second week.

        Two days off for me was probably not the perfect thing for me at that time of the tournament because I arrived with the right feeling and playing well. But I had that two days, and that’s fine.

        I tried. I lost. That’s the easiest way to explain that. I lost. Is not a drama. Is nothing strange.”

  25. So this is the key reason he said he lost to Kyrgios (nothing to do with knees or his back):

    “But I was not able to read his serve during the whole match. At the end on grass, the resume is that. I was not able to read his serve. I was not able to put enough returns inside. We had one break each.”

  26. RAFAEL NADAL: I didn’t play with lot of pressure. I won in the French. I am having a great season. I am playing well.

    But I repeat. The surface here is dangerous and my draw was not easy. I played against a player that was not easy no one round. Today was not the right opponent again. He decided to serve so big and play so aggressive from the baseline.

    During the whole match I had some chances. Not in the first set, but after the first set yes. Even in the fourth, first game, Love‑30, two aces, two lines. That was it. I was not able to read the serve. I tried. Nothing bad.

    I was right…I believe these words from Rafa should put an end on this discussion…

    I wish people would recognize Rafa’s best game which it was at the FO 2014…he beats top form Novak fair and square…

    • natashao2013 says:
      October 22, 2015 at 4:06 pm,
      —RAFAEL NADAL: “But I repeat. The surface here [at Wimbledon] is dangerous…”—
      ===
      .
      This says it all. 🙂

    • You do remember how Rafa seemed on the verge of physically collapsing in that fourth set. He was double over at one point and the commentators were alarmed. Something was going on with Rafa, maybe it was his back or just fatigue. He also seemed to be cramping up. I remember after he won, he climbed into the stands and then we saw him whispering something to Uncle Toni. We later found out that he needed some kind of I.V. to deal with dehydration. So Rafa was struggling in that sense. I think he also said afterward that he doesn’t know what would have happened if the match went to a fifth set.

      • exactly…I clearly remember that…that was Rafa’s physical exhaustion from long rallies…that is what top form Novak does to his opponents…he wares them down…and Rafa still managed to win! Just give him credit for it and please do not say that Novak was not at his best!!!

    • Dangerous for everybody is what Nadal says in the context of chances for losing.

      In terms of easier on the body, Nadal says:

      “I think clay and grass are surfaces that are a bit less aggressive for the body,” the Spaniard, who has spoken in the past about hard courts taking a toll on his body, told CNN’s Open Court.

      “To save a little bit more (of) your body, it would be great if we could play more and more on grass and clay.”

      http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/26/tennis/wimbledon-2015-nadal-grass-tennis/

  27. This is not the place to discuss anything to do with Rafa; 64aces has already complained to Ricky about this:

    64aces says:
    October 18, 2015 at 1:20 pm
    Ricky Most of the threads here are bombarded with posts about Rafa Nadal. Threads about matches not involving Rafa Nadal are filled with unnecessary stuff related to Rafa Nadal, this very annoying. You should ask the Ra Fans to post all things related to Rafa Nadal on his thread, or threads about his matches.

    Reply
    Ricky Dimon says:
    October 18, 2015 at 2:03 pm
    I do this all the time. If you have a recent example that would great so i can appropriately punish whoever is responsible!!

    • Its not so much about Rafa but its about how good Kygrios is by beating Rafa on grass at Wimbledon. We’re talking about the future of tennis remember? So we’re measuring Kygrios against the great RN but not against the likes of Murray or Stan or Gasquet.

      Unless Kygrios can prove his worth by at least consistently beating the top ten guys if not the big four consistently, I see him as not better than Thiem but maybe better than Coric or Kokkinakis.

      • Were we specifically told not to talk about Rafa on other topic threads? Because I am not aware of that. I think it’s natural that things sometimes go off topic. Other players are brought up. I don’t think it’s so rigid that it’s a capital offense to even mention Rafa.

      • I agree…we shall see…if he does not change his attitude he will be the major loser…and his talent will go to waste…I hope that to change…and as a fan of tennis I am willing to give him the chance and to forgive him his childish behavior…that is all I was saying from the very beginning…if someone that young was able to beat my Rafa I had to give him some credit for it…

        this is where I stop this discussion…

  28. Let me ask one question, why was Rafa able to handle big servers during his 2006-2011 Wimbledon but not lately? Was Kygrios serving out of a tree that Rafa has never ever faced such a serve??

    Rafa’s game on grass has deteriorated not without reasons. How come he does poorly on grass but so well elsewhere? Thats because his knee conditions worsen after 2011 that he had problems bending his knees low on the low bouncing grass and he had to undergone stem cell treatment on his knees end of 2013. He did better at Wimbledon in 2014 but hes never the same Rafa on grass the way he was from 2006-2011. Also, Rafa had himself to blame for not holding his nerve during the TB, lost a first serve and had to serve a second serve which was easily returned by Kyrgios and so he lost that TB.

    And how was Rafa at 100% at FO2014 final when he was cramping during the fourth set? Novak himself wasnt playing at tip top condition either and so the one who played better finally won the match. Its hardly a tip top Rafa and Novak playing at 100% against each other.

    • so now it’s no longer his back issue but his knees? Thank you for arriving to that conclusion! At least you finally acknowledged that…

      I was also saying that Rafa’s game deteriorated…my point was that Rafa was not impaired when he lost to Kyrgios and that the loss had to do with Nick playing agressive and serving well which was helped by Rafa not being himself on grass any more… Rafa proved me right in his interview…if Rafa was anywhere injured he would have lost the RG Final…

      and now you state Novak was not 100% in the 2014 RG final? really? how do you know that??? how was he then 100% in the Wimby final to beat Fed??? Novak would never agree with you on this speculation…

      • Nat, did you watch the FO final? Novak was vomitting during the second set and he looked unwell. Rafa was cramping in the fourth set, they both were bothered by the humidity. Not at 100% doesnt necessarily mean being injured. Novak was fine at Wimbledon because theres no humidity problem there right?

        You have problem understanding? Rafa had his stem cell treatment at end of 2013 so his knees might not be an issue for him in 2014 but that didnt mean his back after the AO injury was in tip top conditions. They’re not mutually exclusive you know? How do you explain his poor performances at the clay masters and at Barcelona?

    • Lucky,

      I am trying to catch up with this discussion and I posted a comment earlier on this topic thread to the effect that Rafa. was having cramping and other physical issues in that match with Novak. However, I am pleased to read that you also brought it up before I did. I just hadn’t read that far.

  29. I would like to hear from Ricky regarding any of us bringing Rafa into a discussion on a topic thread that is not about him. Is this a problem? I would rather hear from Ricky than have anyone here seem to be self-moderating by bringing this up.

    I would assume if Ricky has a problem with posters bringing Rafa up in a topic thread dedicated to other players, that he would post something to that effect.

    • Lucky,

      I am also glad that you brought up the fact that Novak was vomiting and having stomach issues throughout that match. Both Novak and Rafa were suffering in the heat and humidity that day.

      As you said, that does not mean either one of them had a specific injury. It was the conditions that took a toll and also the physically demanding nature of their matches.

    • Even if Ricky doesn’t intervene, even a person with half the brain knows that this thread isnt even remotely related to Rafa Nadal. I mean seriosuly what has a match between Djokovic and Tsonga got to do with Nadal? You should be able to decide even without Rickey’s Moderation.

  30. I think threads should do what it says on the tin. This thread is about Djoker winning the Shanghai Final and Rafa was not in the final as far as I know. It would be impossible to keep track of discussions in the future if we don’t put things in the right place.

    I’m not trying to moderate anything, just saying.

  31. @ lucky,

    it was said that he was not 100% due to his back injury which is not correct and I argued about it. Furthermore, vomiting and cramping comes from the humidity, long rallies, etc. It was a natural result of the challenging match they played, with long points supported by the difficult whether…it has nothing to do with them being 100%…please you must know that…

    • and Novak was fine in Wimbly mainly because he did not have to play long rallies of 25+ which he had to in the FO final…and Rafa would never be able to win those rallies if he had any type of back injury…you making such unfounded claims is just taking away from Rafa and from Novak to some extent…and Rafa never mentioned the back injury during FO or Wimby 2014.,..it is pure speculation of some of his fans…

      • Novak didnt vomit during his matches at Wimbledon did he? He had long matches too at Wimbledon vs Cilic and then Fed but hes fit enough during those matches.

      • natashao2013 (at 5:22 pm),
        —Rafa never mentioned the back injury during FO or Wimby 2014.,..it is pure speculation of some of his fans…—
        ===
        .
        1) @10:33 am I posted a picture taken at the 2014 FO; I post it again:
        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR6m1JJUsAALApA.png:medium

        2) Rafa talked about his back issues between FO and Wimby – in Halle:
        tennis.com, June 14, 2014: ¤¤ Nadal also admitted that his back was bothering him. “I don’t have a very bad feeling but I still feel the back a little bit,” he said. …
        “And I felt that during Roland Garros, in the first round and especially in the second round, it was worse. But it’s true that after the second round I was improving. Today it’s not the worst day but I feel that I need to improve, I need to rest a little bit.” ¤¤

    • Nah, Novak was vomitting in the second set after winning the first. Clearly thats not due to exhaustion?

      Rafa was cramping not because of exhaustion but because of the humidity and loss of fluid due to dehydration. Under normal conditions, Rafa wont be exhausted when the match itself was not a long one. When a player is cramping surely he cant play at 100%. If Rafa lost that fourth set and then Novak won the fifth because Rafa was cramping, do you still think Rafa was at 100%? Its just that Rafa happened to play well and guessed well Novak’s last few moves and Novak DF the last point and lost the fourth set and the match so there’s no fifth set.

      You see,.the injury happened in Jan at the AO, by FO or Wimbledon there’s no injury. However that doesnt mean his back was fully healed or at tip top conditions, you have to understand this. If not, how come Rafa did so well at the AO and reached the final but out of sudden he played so badly throughout the European clay Masters?

      • If you read Nadal’s transcripts, he said that he was fit in 2014 and the reason he lost against Kyrgios is because he couldn’t get a read on his serve. He also said having two days off between matches wasn’t ideal.

        Kyrgios is a flake, but when he is on (and he was up for the big stage that day), he has incredible game and talent.

  32. NNY if you’re still there, Alex Zverev is now playing against Berdych at Stockholm. Berdych won the first set 6-3, now into sec set Zverev leading 2-0, 15-0. Go watch him.

    • “Let me ask one question, why was Rafa able to handle big servers during his 2006-2011 ”

      Like who exactly. Nadal has been bombarded by many hard servebots from 2012-2015 and the more you face the higher the chances for one to beat you on any given day.

      Nadal didn’t have to face too many large servers prior to 2012 at Wimbledon.

    • lucky,

      Thanks but I left because things were getting too confusing. This business with being told not to take about Rafa here over and over and then the discussion itself which was going around in circles. I made one or two comments after I came back, but I think I will just stay out of it.

      Just to let you know, the tennis channel coverage of Stockholm hasn’t been that great. They seem to be showing those matches on a tape delayed basis. So I will try to catch whatever I can. I really do want to try to watch this kid Zverev. I am impressed with him.

      I appreciate the reminder, even if I wasn’t here to read it! 🙂

  33. And you expect Rafa to say that he lost because he’s having problem with his body? Of course Kygrios serves is a problem but isn’t it too much to handle when you are facing servebots after servebots?

      • No, he’s always being asked the questions about injuries and he had to fend off such questions.

        And you see, in 2010 he was able to fend off three servebots but not now. See the difference?

      • Yes I see the difference. Nadal already explained it. Kyrgios and Rosol hit the ball harder. Nadal scraped by Haase and Petzschner. The differences in these matches were razor thin decided by a few points.

        2015 was a different problem all together.

        I also don’t believe that Nadal has ever resorted to dishonesty to fend off questions. He has always been candid and very honest.

  34. Sod had the misfortune of meeting Rafa or Fed at Wimbledon. Gulbis that year in 2008 was causing Novak problems too at the FO. And how old was Kyrgios in 2014? Petz and Haase took Rafa to five sets and exactly! And Rafa won and that’s the difference between then and now! You forget your very own question and ie which servebots did Rafa meet back then? I gave you the list and Rafa did overcome them back then!

    • Players playing well at 19 are the exception not the norm.

      Many players gave Novak problems before 2011.

      Gulbis, Haase, Del Potro, Berdych and Petzschner are not known as “servebots”.

      I didn’t forget anything. Please keep this about tennis. No need to attack other posters.

      • And when did I attack you? I’m just reminding you about the question you asked and I gave you the answers.

        Those players are not known as servebots because they’re better than servebots; they do serve plenty of aces though on grass.

      • OK, not an attack but a bit sarcastic or disrespectful. You knew the comment I was talking about so you obviously know that yourself.

        No I asked for servebots and you listed players that you agreed weren’t.

        It doesn’t matter. The differences were fine and Nadal explained it honestly, openly and correctly.

    • If you’ve read his presser transcripts recently, you would’ve came across a comment by him that he won’t lie unless really has to! I mean what you expect players to say in the pressers? That they lost because of injuries? You remember what happened to Fed after saying he was injured when he lost to Berdych at Wimbledon one year?

      • I saw that transcript and it was said humorously. In jest. I have found no examples of this to be the case.

        As I said, Nadal is always exceptionally honest, candid and respectful at the same time so to answer your question in terms of Nadal? Yes.

        Here is what he said when he lost to Stan in Australia.

        “The back, since the beginning I felt a little bit, from the warmup. It was a little bit worst in the first set. End of the first set, I start to feel worst.
        Then at the beginning of the second was the key moment that I felt, during a serve in a bad movement, is very stiff, very bad.
        That’s not the real moment to talk about that. Is the moment to congratulate Stan. He’s playing unbelievable. He really deserve to win that title. I very happy for him. He’s a great, great guy. He’s a good friend of mine. I am really happy for him.
        So just congratulate him for everything. He had a great year last year and start the new year winning two titles is just amazing.
        So congratulations.

        Just try to‑‑ I don’t know. You can ask the physio, because in that moment I was too worried to think about what happened. The physio tried to relax a little bit the back. When that happen during a match is almost impossible. I tried hard.
        Last thing that I wanted to do was retirement. No, I hate to do that, especially in a final. Same time, is tough to see yourself during the whole year you are working for a moment like this, and arrives the moment and you feel that you are not able to play at your best.
        So was not an easy situation for me to be on court like this, but I tried hard until the end, trying to finish the match as good as I can for the crowd, for the opponent, for me. So that’s what I did: tried everything until the last moment, but was impossible to win this way. Opponent is too good.

      • For that matter, he even now refers to 2012-2013 Wimbledon’s as not arriving in the best conditions with his knees so he’s been open and honest about being injured there too. He would have beaten Darcis I believe in 2013 if his knees were good. Rosol maybe maybe not.

        2014 he claimed to be healthy and that’s good enough for me given how honest he has always been. Kyrgios was just too good on the day for him. Nothing wrong with that.

    • lucky,

      Yes! There should be some good tennis! I will check to see when they are showing Stockholm. They’ve been showing Vienna live, If I recall, the tennis channel will sometimes switch to broadcasting live with these smaller tournaments when they get to the quarterfinals. Otherwise, I will just wait for the taped replay. I am more interested in Stockholm than Vienna.

  35. Christophe, that AO injury is obvious for all to see and he took a long MTO. He had to explain what happened during his presser when asked, there’s no way he could avoid that.

    Seriously, I would expect players to avoid giving injuries as excuses when they lost, Nadal is no different if he can avoid it. If he comes on court with bandages then of course he may be asked about them.

    I think we’ve discussed enough of Rafa (and Kygrios) here. I think we shall stop here.

  36. Sorry, did Tsonga win or lose his match vs Rosol?

    I see Dimi won his vs Almagro. I’m also happy for Cilic for winning his match at Moscow. Hope for him to do well for the rest of the season and starts well next year. He’s already doing OK even when missing the AO this year.

  37. @ Christophe Umlaut 7:57,

    great post! (and all the previous posts! ) You said it all! I really appreciate your input on the topic and the well based arguments! I fully agree on all counts…

    You have excellent tennis knowledge!

      • Nobody is ignoring Rafa’s health issues…we just do not use them as excuses nor does Rafa…so you shouldn’t either…it is disrespectful of Rafa…judging by some of the comments here Rafa has NEVER been 100%. LOL…

        One should differentiate injuries from the fear of injuries…that is what Rafa often experiences. “Feeling a little bit” hardly qualifies as an injury. However, Rafa is terrified of getting injured and I do not blame him for that. Of course if he feels something he speaks honestly about it and it’s up to the public to interpret or misinterpret it…

        Saying that Rafa deliberately does not tell the truth in his interviews is also very disrespectful of our Rafa. I would never expect some of his fans stating such thing…

        Rafa was not injured in the FO final! Rafa did not feel his back in that Wimby match with Kyrgios. Rafa beat Novak as he displayed outstanding tennis and incredible mental strength. Rafa lost to Kyrgios because the kid played agressive and served well on Rafa’s least favorite surface. Period.

        you will just have to learn to live with that…

    • Nats, I think you have problem getting the gist of our comments. I don’t think anyone, me included, has implied that Rafa deliberately does not tell the truth. What he can do or has done is by simply brushing aside the issue, eg by saying he does not want to talk about injury. Seriously do you expect Rafa to be injury free all the time? He sometimes play through pain and sometimes he wins and other times he lost. His injury may or may not be a factor and journalists always try to tempt him into revealing what kind of injuries he’s suffering from. Rafa normally doesn’t talk about his injuries when he loses but when the injuries are well known he has no choice but to answer those injury questions.

      About his back issue, if his back was perfect, why then he needed the stem cell treatment at end of 2014? He also mentioned that if the stem cell treatment didn’t work then he really didn’t know what else could help (his back). Back issues won’t just go away that easily. Fed was plagued by it and he sometimes played through that win or loss. Murray also has his back issue. I won’t be surprised that Rafa has/had to play through that either so his serves were sometimes affected. We talking about his injuries after his matches, win or loss, was out of concern for him. I seriously don’t think he’s invincible when he’s fit and healthy esp on indoor HCs and on grass, so why the need to think that we’re only giving excuses?

      Nats, why do you think Rafa played so badly at the clay Masters last year?

      PS. I don’t think we’re not giving credit to Kygrios for beating Rafa at Wimbledon he being a servebot. However, too much credit was given to him when he couldn’t build on what he had done then and played so badly this year at Wimbledon vs Gasquet.

    • Nats, I posted a reply but it was somehow lost. I’ll try post that again.

      I think you’ve not got the gist of our comments. Nobody, me included, has implied that Rafa deliberately does not tell the truth. Rafa himself didn’t say that he’ll deliberately not tell the truth. I think you’re going too far when you say some of his fans are saying or implying that!

      Rafa normally won’t want to talk about his injuries, when he wins or loses; it’s the journalists who always want to tempt him into revealing anything about injuries or no injuries and make an issue out of it. Of course when the injury is obvious, like during his AO 2014, then Rafa has no choice but to talk about it.

      I see no problem discussing Rafa’s injuries, for I’m one not believing he’s invincible when not injured. He’s always vulnerable on indoor HCs and on grass as his records shown. It’s more out of concern for him that we discussed about his injuries. Back injures are difficult to deal with, for sometimes they’ll resurface and during matches. Fed has to deal with it and plays through back pain, win or loss; Murray too. Rafa now has to deal with it too. If his back is perfect, why then does he need the stem cell treatment ( at end of 2014) and if I’m not wrong, he mentioned that if that won’t work, he didn’t know what else he could do to help his back. Also, how come Rafa was suddenly doing so badly during the clay court events last year, when he could reach the AO final ( which was played on HCs)?

      I can only speculate that he’s not pushing his back too hard, esp when the FO was round the corner. He gave it his all during the FO final, playing well ( I don’t think we said he wasn’t despite his cramping in fourth set) and to me that was why he was so emotional when he won it.

      PS. I think Kygrios was given enough or even more than enough credit for his performance vs Rafa at Wimbledon. I don’t think we feel Kygrios didn’t play well and Rafa was injured when he lost ( though I maintain Rafa was not in tip top condition where his back was concerned). It’s just that Kygrios hasn’t lived up to expectations thus far. Will he be another Gulbis?

      • natashao2013 says:
        October 22, 2015 at 10:11 pm
        — 1) Nobody is ignoring Rafa’s health issues…we just do not use them as excuses nor does Rafa…so you shouldn’t either…—
        —2) “Feeling a little bit” hardly qualifies as an injury. —
        —3) Saying that Rafa deliberately does not tell the truth in his interviews is also very disrespectful of our Rafa.—
        —4) Rafa was not injured in the FO final! Rafa did not feel his back in that Wimby match with Kyrgios. —
        ===
        .
        1) I have presented information. (Speaking of “we”, I have no idea who are these mysterious “we”.)
        2) It qualifies as a health issue.
        3) I said: “Rafa was polite. He always is.”
        4) Rafa had health issues.

      • @ lucky,
        “how come Rafa was suddenly doing so badly during the clay court events last year”…

        how come Rafa was doing even worse on clay courts this year? He wasn’t facing any injuries this year, was he? I repeat: he is no longer young and able to engage in long rallies…he needs to adjust his game…otherwise he will be losing on clay next year as well…deterioration of Rafa’s game becomes specifically visible on clay…but I firmly believe that changes that Rafa and his team are working on will have results…

        and as for Kyrgios I will repeat what I said: IF he doesn’t change his attitude he will be yet another wasted tallent…at the end we come to the same conclusion…

    • Nats, you obviously still don’t get it. If it’s because Rafa deteriorated so much on clay then why he was able to engage in long rallies and won the FO last year?

      You talk about this year but isn’t Rafa also doing badly on HCs and on grass too? Rafa obviously has other issues this year and Rafa has already explained why so I’m not going to talk about what have happened this year.

      • if there was no deterioration Rafa would have easily beaten Novak on clay and especially in the FINAL…we know that Rafa becomes the beast in the finals…if he was the King of Clay like he once was he would have dealt with Novak easily especially with Novak affected by the conditions and being under tremendous pressure…I hope you are not saying that Rafa’s game on clay in 2014 is the same as in 2010?!

        and this year’s issues you do not need to explain and I do not even want to go there…it’s too painful…I know it is mental for Rafa but it all comes from his incapability to deal with fast and hard hitting opponents…his FH never worked properly…his court positioning was not adequate in many matches this year…he is slower…his serve lets him down…please if these are not indications of deterioration and the alarm for change, then I do not know what is…

        we will just need to stop here and agree to disagree…Hope 2016 will give us more answers…

      • and if there was no deterioration and the obvious tool those injuries took on Rafa’s body (including getting older of course) he wouldn’t at all have felt affected by the conditions in and he wouldn’t have had cramps in the first place…next year he will have to do better than that…he will simply have to avoid long grueling matches on clay or he will end up being wasted by the time RG comes…

      • Nats, Novak has improved so much on any surface since 2011 and hes still in his peak. Rafa OTOH is slowly coming down from his peak so to expect Rafa to beat Novak handily on clay is being unrealistic. I dont think we’re expecting 2010 Rafa but you’re the one feeling disappointed about Rafa’s game ‘deteriorating’.

        You think Rafa and his team are not aware of how his body works as he grows older? Whatever we can think of, his team would’ve already thought of and finding ways to improve. Unless you dont trust Rafa, you got to believe him when he says hes always finding ways to improve.

  38. Sigh. Christope, it seems you’re arguing for the sake of arguing. You talk about servebots, I’ve given you a list of players who serve big and hit hard, and they’re even better than the servebots, so aren’t they more dangerous than the ‘just’ servebots?

    As I said, the Rafa of 2012 to 2015 is no longer the Rafa of 2007-2011 and so those tight matches that he could win during 2007-2011 he couldn’t win them now or he could lose more of them now. It’s obvious for us to see judging from his results at Wimbledon from 2012 onwards. Right now, he could lose to any kind of players – servebots, S&V player like Brown and player like Darcis. If he has to meet those players that he barely beat in the past, I would guess that he’s going to lose to them now.

    His grass court game has gone down a few notches imo, whether that’s due to his own decline, injuries or opponents are getting better, we all can have our opinions and they may differ.

    • No that is not the case. I just take what Nadal says at face value.

      Again you accuse me first of forfetting my question and now arguing for the sake of it.

      I will stick to tennis.

      To summarize, Nadal said he wasn’t healthy in 2012-2013 for Wimbledon because of his knees and the grass conditions. But not in 2014 when he said he was healthy. Kyrgios on that day was too good.

      I do respect your opinion.

      • No, I didnt accuse you of forfeiting your question. I just reminded you what you’d asked when I’d answered your question.

        You mentioned servebot and I listed the servebots (and better). Oh, and whatever points you raised, i did have an answer to that:
        1) you mentioned Gulbis was only18 in 2008; I asked, ‘how old is Kygrios (in 2014, he’s 19 right? So age is not an issue for Gulbis).
        2) you mentioned Sod only managed R4 and QF at Wimbledon. I said he was stopped by Fed or Rafa there. Also I asked what rounds did Klizan, Rosol or Kygrios used to make at Wimbledon? Are they better than Sod? Sod was also known to serve big and hit hard, he did that and beat Rafa at FO too, so he’s a greater threat on grass. He was also pushing Rafa at Wimbledon back in 2007.

        3) you talked about Petz and Haase pushing him to five sets and Delpo getting to TB with Rafa, all those just proved that Rafa had faced tough big serving opponents, when they were serving aces throughout the match. Not forgetting Delpo had the biggest easy power flat forehand in tennis at least during those times. He ran Novak close in their 5 sets match at Wimbledon in 2013. Delpo was.also one who’s unwavering and never gave up. Rafa beat all of them back then.

        So, your point that Rafa didnt face servebots in the past at Wimbledon prior to 2012 was simply not true. I also mentionef that Rafa in 2010 was able to beat three servebots but in 2014 beating three in a row was too much for him and that’s the difference between then in 2010 and now. I would also speculate that if its Raonic instead of Kygrios that Rafa met, Raonic would beat Rafa too.

  39. nats is wrong in claiming that Rafa was 100% in FO 2014. There was something wrong with him and you could see it in the anxiety displayed by his team. As for Wimbly, tell me a guy who is so good that he makes 5 successive (not counting 2009 when he did not play) Wimbly finals winning 2 how come he then falls prey in 4 successive years in the early rounds to players, all different, playing “the game of their lives” and all falling in the next round? Pulleeze that is highly improbable. As James Bond might have said, once is happenstance, two times is coincidence, three times is “enemy action” i.e. something is wrong with Rafa. 4th time makes it more certain if you want to be more certain. Something happened to Rafa. He has never been 100% ( always with some injuries) but he played great through pain. After his back injury his body now defies his will power. His team is desperately trying to resurrect his career but can a 29 going on 30 player reinvent himself so much as to be again winning slams with new patterns of play? we can but hope. If anyone can do it, our Rafa can.

    • Rafa’s game has deteriorated…i think you said it yourself…the injuries (primarily the knee injury) took a tool on his body… and the time offs that he had to take made him slower and more difficult to come back strong…and it gets obvious especially when he plays on clay because he is no longer so fast and other baseliner are able to outhit him…

      I hope you do not think that Rafa will reach his 2010 level in 2016…what he will do is adjust and change in order to be able to beat the big guys, primarily Novak…That is what Fed did…Rafa is slower which is natural result of growing older and suffering injuries…all your arguments that Rafa was not 100% in the RG Final are in fact the evidence that Rafa is growing older and his game differs from the one in 2010…hence he looked injured but he wasn’t…it’s more difficult for him to hit strong and long from the baseline…he needs to change which I understand his team is working on…

      we just need to get accustomed to the new Rafa for whom I hope to be able to adjust his game otherwise he will not be able to beat even the lower ranked players including on clay…

      and you just confirm what I thought some of you have been saying that Rafa has never been 100%…i disagree…i think he was 100 % in that FO final but in accordance with his age and his current level of play…he can no longer do miracles… I strongly believe he will alter his game to come to the wining stages again…and the solution certainly won’t be the approach of bashing the ball for 20+ times…

  40. And I disagree with nats that Rafa has to be at 100% to beat Djoko. Not on clay. Fed and Stan have both beaten Djoko in years 2011 and 2015 when Djoko was considered invincible. And Rafa is the greatest clay courter of all time. Does he have to be at 100% to beat Djoko on clay?

    • yes he does…unfortunately…Novak is on different level than Rafa…he is faster, his serve is better hence he can afford free points whereas Rafa’s serve is so slow and easy to return that he needs to fight for each point running like hell and wasting his precious energy…and Novak can keep the rallies it seems forever…Novak is one year older, Rafa peaked much earlier than Novak and Novak can play at this level at least for another year which will be sufficient to break the records…unless Rafa adjusts his game and comes back strong..

      Both Novak and Rafa felt the pressure in the FO final…the conditions were equally bad for both and they both reacted…but to say that they were not 100% is pure speculation…the time will tell..

      please do not take away anything from Wawa…he played great rather amazing match in the FO 2015 final and Novak let the pressure get to him…

  41. Rafa (a) has never sheltered behind injuries as a reason for his losses and (b) is extremely reluctant to admit to how bad they are until it is so obvious it becomes impossible to hide.

    He has battled with severe pain throughout his career. The transition from clay to grass is hard on most players – and for Rafa particularly difficult. All the more surprising he achieved the Channel slam which is a measure of his sheer will power to break through the pain barrier.

    He has only recently admitted he was playing with severe pain ALL through 2013: the year which stands out for me as possibly one of his greatest in the light of what it represented.

    The constant raking through their careers comparing Nadal, Federer and Djokovic, based on raw numbers, is to lose sight of what each of them have individually achieved and contributed to this sport.

    #ComparisonsAreOdious

  42. @ ed, 10:46 am.

    you have to observe that from the fact that in order to reach the finals Rafa would have had to beat Novak in the qtrs…that would give him enough confidence boost to deal with Wawa I believe…but it is only me speculating…I would definitely vote for Rafa beating Wawa in that case… 🙂

  43. I think nats you are confused about what you mean by 100% . Are you sure you know what you mean? If by Rafa at 100% you mean Rafa at his peak, Rafa is not and was not at his peak in any of his matches after AO 2014. To say we should not mention his health or age issues is to be in denial. If Laver played today and lost, he maybe 100% as per your definition as we should not mention his age or health as that would be disrespectful to him but the fact would be that beating him would not prove the opponent is faster or better than Laver. I used an extreme example to show you the absurdity of your argument. By claiming Rafa has to be 100% to beat Djoko on clay it is you who is being disrespectful to Rafa.

    • Do you differentiate between being at his peak and at his 100%?Those are two different things!

      Rafa simply could not be at his peak in 2014…I never said he was…his peak was in 2010 and since then his game started to decline to some extent in the same time when Novak started to improve on all counts…but Rafa still managed to be at his best as he did at the FO 2014 considering his age and the status of his game…he is not a miracle worker to run for hours and hit winners all over the place as he used to when he was at his peak…

      Rafa confirmed this in his Wimbly interview…
      RAFAEL NADAL: I didn’t play with lot of pressure. I won in the French. I am having a great season. I am playing well. At the time 2014 hardly qualified for a great season by Rafa’s own standards…yet he was pleased because he was already aware that he could not win it all like he used to…so what other proof do you need????

      I never said we should not mention his health issues…what I said is that we should not use it as an excuse…he lost to Kyrgios who played WELL not because Rafa was injured….live with it!

      and yes Rafa will have to be at his 100% to be able to beat Novak…it’s me and most likely 95% of fans worldwide including Rafa and Uncle T. who will tell you the same…and I do not think there is anything disrespectful in it…your opinion is simply biased…

      • moreover, I never said we should not mention Rafa’s age issues…on the contrary!!! I am the one who is indicating that age is a huge factor in Rafa’s current game and that makes the main reason why he has to alter his game to suit his age…the same as Fed…

        and BTW your example on Laver really makes no sense… 😉

      • Mary compared beating this Rafa to a beating a 77 year old Rod Laver, in case Laver made a comeback to ATP tour. Seriously you are comparing a 29 year old Nadal to a 77 year old Laver? Laver retired 40 years ago, its such a long time ago that even my great-grandfather was alive when he stopped playing. Rafa Nadal is not at his best but comparing him to a 77 year old Laver is the biggest load of nonsense I have ever read on this site.

      • There are very few players (if any) that can take down Djokovic at 100% these days.

        Nadal is no longer at his peak and I don’t know where he goes from here to beat Novak if Novak’s level continues. If Nadal recovers his game, then perhaps on clay.

        Federer in best of three on a fast hard court and Stan in slams is his biggest threat (if it can be called that) at the moment.

  44. Ricky your moderation is biased. I only repeated what 64 aces did. But you retained his comment and treated mine as an insult. He said ” Mary compared beating this Rafa to a beating a 77 year old Rod Laver, in case Laver made a comeback to ATP tour. Seriously you are comparing a 29 year old Nadal to a 77 year old Laver? Laver retired 40 years ago, its such a long time ago that even my great-grandfather was alive when he stopped playing. Rafa Nadal is not at his best but comparing him to a 77 year old Laver is the biggest load of nonsense I have ever read on this site.”
    So I said his lack of logic in not understanding the logic of the comparison was the source of the biggest load of nonsense on this site.

  45. Ricky, if you do not see any insult in 64Aces post oct 23, 3:48pm how did you see an insult in mine when I just repeated what he said?

  46. Ricky I was talking about tennis but 64aces chose to insult me. I gave an extreme example to show that age and health do matter when deciding whether someone is at 100% and the evaluation of what the defeat of a legendary player means. 64aces poked his nose in and insulted me although my post was not meant for him but for nats. You did nothing about it. Instead when I repeated back 64aces post, you deleted my post. and have chosen to retain his post claiming you see no insult. You are playing favorites.

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