Novak Djokovic will put his 28-0 lifetime record in Beijing on the line during Sunday’s title match against none other than Rafael Nadal. The blockbuster final was guaranteed after Nadal got past Fabio Fognini on Saturday.
Novak Djokovic and Rafael Nadal will be squaring off for the 45th time in their careers when they collide again in the China Open final on Sunday.
Although Nadal still holds a 23-21 edge in the head-to-head series, it has shrunk with each meeting this season. Djokovic prevailed twice on clay; 6-3, 6-3 in the Monte-Carlo semifinals and 7-5, 6-3, 6-1 in the French Open semis. The Serb is 14-7 lifetime against Nadal on hard courts and 3-0 in such matches since falling to the Spaniard in the 2013 U.S. Open title match.
Their only previous Beijing ATP encounter came two years ago, when Djokovic cruised 6-3, 6-4 to lift the trophy. They also faced each other in the semifinals of the 2008 Beijing Olympics, with Nadal triumphing 6-4, 1-6, 6-4 on his way to the gold medal.
Nowhere is Djokovic more dominant than at the China Open. His career record stands at 28-0 and he could pass Nadal’s best-ever 31-0 start at Roland Garros if he wins on Sunday and returns to the tournament for a 2016 encore. The world No. 1 has endured absolutely no trouble of any kind while remaining unblemished this week. Djokovic punched his ticket to the last two by easing past Simone Bolelli, Ze Zhang, John Isner, and David Ferrer.
For Nadal, simply reaching the final is a stellar result. He always says that, but in this case it is actually true. Not only has the third seed been in disappointing form almost the entire season, but he also had a tough draw in Beijing. After seeing off Chinese wild card Di Wu, Nadal navigated rough waters in the form of Vasek Pospisil, Jack Sock, and recent nemesis Fabio Fognini. Only Sock has managed to take a set off the 14-time Grand Slam champion, who swiftly erased his one-set quarterfinal deficit.
“I always expect a battle with him,” Djokovic said of Nadal. “I always prepare myself for the battle, no question about it. He’s the player I played the most against in my life. There are no secrets.”
There is also no secret about the current trend of this rivalry. Djokovic has been borderline dominant of late, just as he has been against almost every opponent. If the top seed made short work of Nadal twice on clay, only more of the same can be expected at a place that may the last one anyone would choose to face Djokovic.
Pick: Djokovic in 2 losing 7 games or fewer
[polldaddy poll=9120736]
here we go
This is a no-brainer, Nadal will get schooled.
Yep
the only question is: does it matter?
Keep your mind focused, stay confident, remain calm and be strong, Rafa!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQ-uh0OUkAAHJVx.png:medium
…and be prepared to get your butt kicked.
I disagree, Nadal will not get schooled because this will be his 45th match against Djokovic, so he knows very well what’s coming to him. But it is very likely that he will lose, yes.
Why is 45 different from 44 and 43?
whatd you vote?
I can only say that this is the worst Nadal’s form in the final that Novak has ever faced and if anyone can benefit from it is Djokovic…but the thing is, this encounter has little value and means big nothing …Rafa will have his time…being in the finals is a great step forward…being in the finals in Shanghai would be an awesome result…let’s wait and see…
“if there is no struggle, there is no progress”…
Vamos Rafa!
My hope is that Rafa can make this competitive. He’s won already by getting to the finals. In a year like this, this is a great result. I don’t see any reason why Novak should falter in this final. He has to be brimming with confidence after beating Fed to win the USO, along with winning Wimbledon and the AO. He’s got Masters wins and has been the dominant player this year. He’s already secured the year end #1 ranking. No suspense there.
I want Rafa to be at his beat again because when he is, he is the one player who can take down Novak. I don’t think he’s there yet. There is more work to do. I just want Rafa to go out there and play well, be aggressive, go for his shots, serve well. At least make Novak work for it.
he has nothing to lose. As long as he plays well, score doesnt matter in my opinion.
I agree with both of you. Rafa’s got nothing to lose and he has already gained a lot from this tournament. So glad he faced Fognini and beat him !
I hope rafa can make this competitive by playing aggressive. I don’t think he is good enough right now to take a set off novak but nothing is impossible of course. May be he will come out relaxed and can play some high risk ball? Unlikely though.
Novak’s untouchable right now and rafa acknowledged that in his interview. Novak is destroying the field right now.
THing is, even if rafa were playing at his 2013 level, Novak would still be the favorite in THESE CONDITIONS. Rafa should just use this match as good experience and build confidence for AO 2016.
Sorry, I meant to say that I want Rafa to be at his BEST again!
vamosrafa,
You make an excellent point in saying that even is Rafa was at his 2013 level, Novak would still be favored on this court and these conditions. That is summing it up quite well. Novak is even tougher to take out on this court. That’s why he has the record he does at this tournament.
I also agree with you that Rafa should use this match for experience and get a sense of where his game is at against Novak. It’s a good thing to play the best. Then Rafa will know what else has to be done.
What I really want is for Rafa to get that forehand working consistently again. The tennis channel commies were talking about it during his match with Fog. They noted that Rafa’s not generating the kind of power that he has in the past. Whatever the reason, this has too be addressed during the off season by Rafa and his team.
I would love to think that Rafa can take a set off Novak, but I am not confident about that. No matter what, this has been a really good week for Rafa and should give him some confidence heading into Shanghai.
Nadal rarely wins these days without much resistance. I don’t see a drastic improvement lately as some believe except for a few scattered flashes of former brilliance.
I would never suggest that any player retire or write off a player like Nadal from finding his top form again like many wrote off Roger in 2013 (and now look at him contending for slams).
While he is not my favourite player, I do hope Nadal recovers his game for his sake and for the good of tennis but unless he makes some much needed and long overdue changes to his team, I doubt that it will happen any time soon.
Novak, as he has done all week (and for the last five years he’s played there) will win tomorrow without much resistance.
October 10, 2015 at 11:20 pm
=============
.
(My post is intended for informational purposes only.)
Christophe Umlaut (@Chris_Umlaut) = h63
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRBHRQGXAAARVqe.png:medium
Really? I didn’t know that.
Nole in 2 losing seven or less. I see something like 3 and 4 for Novak. He is just too good right now. Rafa can go big with nothing to lose though so he may sneak up and play some really good tennis and prove to be a test.
Benny,
I am inclined to agree with you, but Ricky made a good point about the score not mattering in the end. Rafa getting to the final is a victory in itself. Of course, I would want him to win the title, but there’s a reason that Novak is undefeated at this tournament.
I would love to see Rafa make Novak work for it. I hope he comes out with calm and just goes for his shots. Then we will see.
Novak is the best now and this match will tell Rafa where he is vs the best on his least favorite court
Rafa’s least favourite court where he won Olympic Gold beating Djoker in the process/
^^^ A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then. Right now Djokovic is like an out of control express train mowing down anything in his way. If anybody can stop the carnage it will be Rafa. Right now I don’t believe this will happen in 2015.
Sanju,
I agree.
Nadal played his best match against Pospisil imo; if he can bring that to the table Djoker will have to lift the lacklustre game he has played so far against weak opposition. Rafa needs to cut down on the UEs, big time, though, but he won’t be feeling any pressure because he knows he is the underdog which will work in his favour.
Vamos Rafa!
Te 45th match between these two, what I meant is that Rafa will not be schooled, as someone put it, because he’s not new to these circumstances.
http://rlv.zcache.com/vamos_rafa_with_flag_of_spain_sticker-r5b169e45925a4dc3870a8a8ab097dc13_v9waf_8byvr_324.jpg
Rafa has nothing to lose and Djoko has nothing to gain.
Oh, yes he does…The whole Serbia will watch the match hoping for yet another comfortable win over Nadal. They praised Novak’s win in that exho like it was a major proof of Novak’s dominance over Rafa. Novak always makes a big deal from his wins over Rafa….and the Serbian press will again go on and on about Novak being untouchable …their focus now is on Novak chasing Fed’s records…they make it look like Rafa’s records are sure thing to be broken by the Serb…it is all so exaggerated…What Novak does is benefiting from the weak tour and Rafa’s slump…it won’t last forever…
All I can say is, thankfully, I don’t have access to the Serbian media.
Rafa is not hung up about this match at all which is a good thing. He’ll be relaxed:
Rafa: “I’m happy to be in the final obviously,” It’s a good result for me, very positive one. And tomorrow is a match to enjoy”.
Yes, exactly what I was saying…good for Rafa…just needs to enjoy the match…
Gabine wins her final. Good omen?
Rafa got broken in the first game but he is not playing too badly. He trails 0:2.
Not too bad yes. He is at least trying to be agreesive
Rafahas just hit a glorious fhdl.
At least Rafa ia not getting bagelled
Rafa has just held his serve to 0. I really like the way he’s playing even if he loses the 1st set.
This is the best I’ve seen Rafa play this whole season…
Vamos Rafa!
Rafa just missed converting 2 break points.
Vamos Rafa!
Djokovic is not looking so invincible, I must say.
Rafa needs some luck with the lines.
Rafa is not afraid to go for his shots.
Rafa is down 2 breaks, but he is playing well. He is not being dominated.
No luck for Rafa…he deserved better…
Vamos!
1st set, Djokovic – 62.
Rafa is not plying badly at all.
Well after not playing badly you still lose 6-2. Just shows how good Djokovic is playing
I’d say how lucky Djoko is.
please, please come to reality ASAP.
I am very encouraged by Rafa’s form.
Rafa got deflated after losing from 40-0
I don’t think he got deflated. He’ll say, this is the game of margins.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRCVerMUsAADM3f.png
🙁
I think that 90% of Rafa didn’t expect to win this match, but he’d be pleased with the way he is hitting the ball. There were times when Djoko looked concerned that it’s not a wo.
The scoreline simply does not reflect the quality of the match. This is a vast improvement on anything we have seen from him for many, many months.
For once the net was on Rafa’s side.
This match shows a huge leap in Rafa’s form.
I really like what I’m seeing, even if Raga doesn’t win.
Agree. This is the kind of match he needed.
Trainer
Oh shit. Not an injury.
A problem with his right foot
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRCha18WcAEszef.png
Rafa just needs to build on this match. He’s doing well, moving forward from the slump. If this is slump Rafa watch out for the real Rafa.
I would call this an honourable loss bearing in mind who was on the other side of the net.
I think it’s less to do with Djoker and more to do with bad luck on Rafa’s side.
6-2 4-1? Dang. I didn’t realize it would be that lopsided. Nole dominated the whol entire field this week wow.
I am pleased with the way Rafa played. Very pleased.
Vamos Rafa!
congrats to me
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRCgj3TUsAAKI5G.png
:'(
Djokovic 23 winners Nadal only 7 Djokovic 7 aces Nadal 0
If Rafa was hitting 23 winners and 7 aces, he would be the no.1 player, not no.7 or 8. The rankings speak for themselves.
Keep believing in yourself, Rafa!
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/tennis/ready-for-tennis-smiley-emoticon.gif
Vamos Rafa – no matter what!
Rafa cut down on the errors and this is the best I’ve seen him strike the ball this year. Obviously, Djoko is on his game right now but there is not a lot between them from what I’ve seen in this match. Rafa wasn’t nervous which is a big plus and he went for his shots to the bitter end, things just didn’t go his way.
Rafa can do more by playing further up the court. Im surprised he didnt try something different in the second set, i was hoping he could make use of this opportunity to test something different against Novak; staying at the baseline to rally with Novak is not a winning formula, unless one can hit with depth and precision like Stan and forced Novak back on his back foot. Or, play like Fed or Nishi by stepping in and taking time away from Novak.
Both were poor at the net this match; Rafa was 0 for 5 and Novak 3 for 14 at the net? I see lots of rallying and Novak winning them most of the time. Rafa just lacked precision in his shots, had some of his shots landed in, we would have a more competitive full match. Novak OTOH had no such problem, hes turning into another Fed, who’s well known for his precision tennis.
Its still a positive match for Rafa despite him losing, as he had shown that Novak had to work hard in set one to win it. He just needs to make changes during a match when things dont work against his opponent (something hes capable of doing all along but not this year).
lucky,
I agree with your analysis. I was surprised that Rafa didn’t try to go to the net more. I don’t see him out hitting Novak from the baseline. Novak will be content to play that kind of game, especially with Rafa in his current form.
I remember thinking that Rafa was just missing some key shots, while Novak was just making them. That was the key in this match. Novak seems to be in the zone right now. Rafa did well to make him work in the first set. It wasn’t as lopsided as the score might indicate.
Nadal just got bulldozed by Djokovic 6-2 6-2. Nadal played a good match, yet didnt look even remotely capable of troubling Djoker.
That speaks more of Novak’s level than Rafa’s. Rafa playing this way can trouble anyone not named Novak. Novak playing this way can beat anyone, not only Rafa.
64aces ‘he didn’t look even remotely capable of troubling Djoker’.
Have to disagree. He showed anxiety on several occasions. And when was the last time he had multiple match points yet still had trouble serving out a match against anybody other than the Big Four?
[polldaddy poll=9121521]
Yes!
Well done Novak!
I had predicted 63 62 on another tennis forum.
A few flashes of Nadal’s former brilliance as expected. He played better in the first two sets vs Fognini at the US Open in my opinion.
As has happened all too much, just too many errors that weren’t there two years ago.
Novak had another gear to go to had it been needed.
Nadal still has a long way to go to compete with Novak.
Great tennis from Novak and also Stanimal earlier.What was with Nadal’s injury timeout?Glad Novak kept his focus.
some kind of foot issue. Looked 90 percent after it.
So is there an injury now with foot?
minor i would assume
he didnt look 100 percent to me, but it may have been mental
https://twitter.com/bounzifu/status/653203593647013889
https://twitter.com/carole_bouchard/status/653209810494619648
https://twitter.com/carole_bouchard/status/653210131023265792
FYI
Carol Bouchard is the author of the article I posted on Rafa’s page on Saturday (October 10, 2015 at 5:32 pm):
“Nadal is determined to stay calm, motivated despite the storm of 2015”
https://twitter.com/stu_fraser/status/653216620437991424
(Stuart Fraser is a Sports Journalist)
Oh no the foot again, not any injury
If a 62 62 match takes 90 minutes, it surely means score is lopsided.
I mean quality of match not reflective of the score..it may have been more competitive.
The score does not reflect the competitive nature of the match. I was so pleased with Rafa. He was very positive throughout even at match point he did not back off, which is such a good sign. Once or twice his UE at big points just let him down but the balls were marginally out. So I’d give him 7/10 considering where he was at the beginning of the week.
Hope his foot is OK; obviously he needs to get it checked out to know what’s wrong if anything. It reminds me of his match against Delpo at Wimbledon in 2011.
Vamos Rafa!
After the match, Rafa said:
I have to say congratulations to Novak, he’s having one of the best seasons in the history of our sport.
For me, it’s also been a very positive week.
I’ve been improving every single match and all the matches are good practice for me and especially the victories (because they) are a lot of positive energy for next year.
Rafa Nadal fans
I hope Rafa is not injured again…please just not another injury..my hear would not handle it…
In terms of Rafa’s game I see a lot of positives in this match…I also realized that Rafa did not want to expand all of his energy to fight with this Novak…he will have plenty of time to do it next year…
I agree luck was on Novak’s side if there is such thing… 🙂
Novak is like a wall…nobody should engage in rallies with him…if Rafa was able to hit those line shots accurately it would have been a lot more in Rafa’s favor…but he is getting there..
What this match says is:
1. Rafa is progressing and will surely be ready for 2016 (bearing no injuries, please!)
2. Novak is not that invisible…if Rafa hit those angels with precision Novak would have been forced to work much harder for the win
3. I think Rafa has overcome his nervousness…he is playing more freely and closer to the baseline which is an indication of returning calm and confidence…
4. Uncle T and the rest of the team will have to work out a better strategy against Novak in the future…Novak is like a wall…he can run forever and defend for ages…Rafa will have to change once again to be able to deal with Novak…
Let us hope Rafa stays healthy and happy…the victories will come…
Vamos Rafa!
+1
When I saw the injury it occurred to me that 2015 has been injury free for Rafa for a change, or did I forget some?
It was wonderful to see Rafa playing this well, for this year. Given that he says he isn’t going to make changes in his team or in working with a psychologist / psychotherapist and the like… some days I am hopeful that he will more or less conquer his anxiety enough next year to resemble the Rafa pre 2014.
Rafa injured his left ankle during his practice before the Miami Masters. He fell and was lying on court for about 10 minutes, thinking that the tournament was over (according to his own words).
http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Rafael-Nadal-suffers-nasty-fall-during-practice-in-Miami-articolo23071.html
Rafael Nadal said he would have to wait and see if he can play next week’s Shanghai Masters after injuring his foot during defeat in the China Open final on Sunday.
Nadal was moving gingerly after his 6-2, 6-2 loss to top-ranked Novak Djokovic and he will monitor the right foot problem when he flies from Beijing to Shanghai on Monday.
The 14-time Grand Slam-winner called for the trainer during the second set and he faded towards the end of the match as Djokovic strode towards his sixth title in Beijing.
Is this true? Did Rafa move gingerly?Did he fade towards the end?
I didn’t notice him moving any different to how he did prior to the foot incident.
Raf’s close calls were jus out and Nole’s close calls were just in. That’s what I call luck.
Sometimes you just try to sugar-coat the reality, I mean seriously we are talking about a 14 time major champion here not a 2nd tier player. Nadal didn’t lose 7-6 7-6, he lost 6-2 6-2 you cant blame luck after such a lopsided defeat, before the match you said you believed he could win, but he only managed 4 games.
It’s unfortunate that some are just blind to reality. There’s no shame in accepting what happened in this match. Rafa was very gracious to Novak in his comments during the trophy ceremony. That’s class. He also was being honest. I am so proud of Rafa for having the grace to congratulate Novak and acknowledge the great year he is having.
Thx for your comments, it’s nice to see that despite the comprehensive score, Rafa played well. Vamos Rafa, on your way to complete come-back!
Congrats to Djokovic for yet another title this year. Amazing.
“I knew that he’s going to make mistakes and he’s going to give me shorter balls so I can dominate the rallies, which happened”, Djokovic
Djokovic said Nadal had his chances in first set but they he kept his calm and his aggressivity. It paid off. His serve helped a lot too.
Novak speaks the truth. That is exactly what happened. Luck had nothing to do with it. This isn’t poker.
I finally saw my recording of the match. I couldn’t get up that early. It’s what I expected. No surprise. I was just unnerved when Rafa hurt his foot. That was a concern. I hope he’s okay. He did finish the match, so hopefully that’s a good sign.
Rafa winning the Olympic gold medal on this court was seven years ago. Novak wasn’t the player he is now. This had nothing to do with luck. You don’t win three slams and get one win away from the calendar slam because of luck. That’s beyond absurd. Novak is simply in stellar form right now, brimming with confidence.
Rafa had his moments. There were flashes of brilliance from him and that was really nice to see. But at this time he can’t sustain a high enough level of play to beat Novak. It’s a work in progress. He fought and did his best. That’s all I could possibly ask of him. He got a great result getting to the final.
One thing I noticed is that Rafa’s DTL forehand let him down in key moments of the match. He was missing that shot when he needed it most. Against Novak that’s the crucial shot that must be firing for Rafa to have success. He also dumped forehands into the net. He has to work to get that shot back at its best.
But this has been a good week for Rafa.
This Rafan knows his/her tennis! Well said!
Thanks! It really ticks me off to read some comments saying it was all about luck with Novak! Really? Painting those lines has nothing to do with luck! Geez, I don’t know why people just can’t give the guy credit for being in great form now. He has always done well during this part of the tennis year, because these fast, low bouncing courts suit his game. I think he’s going to continue his winning ways. Maybe Fed might have a shot in a best of three set match on these courts. But Novak is just feeling it now.
I am just grateful for those flashes of brilliance from Rafa. He just needs to be able to play that way more consistently if he wants to beat Novak. The forehand issue must be resolved during the off season. Even the tennis channel commies noticed that Rafa isn’t getting the power off that shot in his previous matches. He also doesn’t have the precision and accuracy.
What Novak is doing is no accident. I am just incredibly proud of Rafa for being so generous with his praise of Novak during that trophy ceremony. He didn’t have to do it. But that’s the measure of Rafa. He could have decided to be petty and talk about it all being luck, but he’s smart enough to know better.
Rafa is going in the right direction now. I believe he’s going to get there. It won’t happen overnight. He can take some good things out of this match, because there were some great rallies where he went toe to toe with Novak. If he keeps on working, he will get there!
You sound like a true Rafan @nativennewyorker7.
Those that say it is luck sound a lot like Roger Federer when he called Novak lucky at the US Open when he saved match points.
if djokovic wasn’t so lucky he would’ve lost this match.
Please give me a break!
even a break would be sufficient. you would need 2 in each set.
Exactly.
Don’t be preposterous, this match was not decided by 1 or 2 points, Djoker was thoroughly dominant unless you saw something that I didnt.
Chris U, 🙂
Oh yes, that’s true about Fed saying that Novak was lucky when he hit that brilliant ROS shot to stave off a match point. That was just pure guts and going for it when it mattered most.
So yes, there is a familiar ring to these comments about it being all about luck. But Rafa spoke specifically to Novak about his great year. Why? Because he knows better than anyone that it has nothing to do with luck. I just can’t get over Rafa’s innate appreciation for his rivals even when it’s at his expense.
Rafa will come away with some positives and good feelings after this tournament. I just hope that his foot is okay. He’s definitely going in the right direction and I have confidence that he will get there.
Oh, h63, who has transformed to Christophe Umlaut, and NNY have found each other!
.
Doesn’t the statement “a true” Rafan (at 5:16 pm) imply that there are “not true” Rafans? I am just curious about that, nothing else.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRDhlZXWUAETrO1.png:medium
it is interesting to notice that 50% of the poll are in favor of nadal winning this match; such unrealistic scenario! i am sure nadline voted 20 times at least.
Actually, I only vote once in these polls because I don’t believe that polls decide the outcome of anything and I don’t think living in a fool’s paradise is of any use.
Geez Such arrogance and ignorance being shown in some of the comments, such as Djokovic was lucky today and “Novak is lucky because Rafa is in a slump and he is competing against a weak tour” Isn’t this the same ” weak” tour where Rafa Nadal has won his share of titles? If Nadal is in a slump and an extended one at that, why should Djokovic be discredited for what he is doing? Nadal’s extended slump is none of Djokers business, he can beat only whoever is on the other side of the net. Djokovic will finish the year as #1 for the 4th time in last 5 years and ITF World Champion for the 5th straight year. Do you want to say that Rafa Nadal has been in a slump for all of this period? Surely not, Djokovic was good enough to win many majors and stay at # 1(more often than not) even when Rafa Nadal was at his best. Of course back then the gap between the 2 wasn’t as huge as it is now.
ChinaOpen, Oct. 11, 2105: ¤¤ Nadal turns win into a loss¤¤
http://www.chinaopen.com.cn/en/news/2015-10-12/0043901.shtml
Excerpts:
¤¤ If it’s possible to experience a win within a loss, Rafael Nadal did it as he finished runner-up to Novak Djokovic at the China Open.
“After the match I’m more happy than before the match,” Nadal declared following world No.1 Djokovic’s straight-sets victory …
Having experienced a disappointing season according to his own high standards, Nadal is determined now to simply make improvements in his tennis as he builds a stronger base for the 2016 season.
…there was reason to be positive about tonight’s final performance too.
With aggression from the baseline, there were many of Nadal’s trademark forehand winners in the longer rallies – along with a strong sense that he wasn’t far from the form that’s made him a 14-time Grand Slam champion and provided long stints at world No.1.
“For moments in that first set, I was very close to that level, thinking that I am playing against a player who is playing unbelievable and with huge confidence,” Nadal surmised of Djokovic…
“In terms of game, I was not very far in that first set. Seriously I had a lot of chances.”
Nadal was treated for a right foot injury midway through the third game of the second set and there was a corresponding dip in intensity as he dropped serve in that game and again in the fifth, before Djokovic sealed the 91-minute win with an ace.
“I felt something but hopefully it’s fine,” the Spaniard explained of the injury, adding that he still intends to travel to the Shanghai Rolex Masters tomorrow and complete a scheduled practice session. “For the moment, still the same.”
As the season draws to a close, Nadal is already looking ahead to the next one, knowing that he’s building a foundation to return to his top form in 2016.
“My main goal is try to be 100 per cent ready for the beginning of next a season,” he reiterated. “A week like this one helps a lot.”
Asked whether he can catch Djokovic at world No.1, Nadal would only point to his own progress. “I’m going to fight. I’m going to do it my way,” he stressed. “When I was No.2 and Roger (Federer) was No.1 (it) was not my obsession to improve my game and do my way. For me (it) is the same thing today.”
And even if he’s not winning all his matches – yet – Nadal is certainly winning in attitude. “My motivation is (to) keep going, do it my way,” he stressed. “ I have been doing that already … I know if I am playing well again, then I can fight.” ¤¤
Fight bravely, Rafa!
augusta,
Are you trying to start trouble by saying that Christophe and I have found each other? Because I do not understand the point you are making. Are you telling me that I can’t interact with this person?
watch it
nativenewyorker7 (at 7:42 pm)
I do not understand the point you are making.—
==============
.
Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot to insert a smiley 🙂
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CREI46YW8AMFloD.png:medium
I cannot single out any successful player who did not state at least once in his career: “I was not lucky in this match and I lost it”…I remember some players playing against Rafa and winning saying: I was a bit lucky today…so I think in this sport luck does play a role…a small one but it does…if you follow football, volleyball, or any other sport you would know that luck always becomes part of the equation…
Nobody here is saying that it was pure luck that Novak won…that is ridiculous way to put it…I believe what is meant is that Rafa could have had it better way if there was some luck involved…the Serbian commentator said at least couple of times: “those lines and the net are certainly on Novak’s side today”…
Novak is playing great and there is no doubt about it…all we can do is congratulate him…but Rafa is progressing…and he will get there…and I believe his luck will be there for him in the key turning points… 🙂
Vamos Rafa!
Rafa himself has admitted to be lucky to win a match from time to time. He was hardly expected to say Novak got a few lucky balls that barely touched the lines. It would have been completely out of order for Rafa to say Novak got lucky in a few close calls at the presentation ceremony, but he’ll know that is the case.
augusta,
Okay, thanks for that! Now I understand! I appreciate the clarification! 🙂
In reply to natashao2013: at 7:34 pm
You mentioned Football, the big difference between tennis and Football is that Football matches are often decided by a single goal, as a result 1 moment of brilliance, 1 bad decision by the referee, 1 minor error even an own goal and you end up losing the match. For that reason luck plays more of a role in Football. I am not saying that luck does not play any role in tennis, but Tennis matches are rarely decided by 1 or 2 points so the luck factor is not as big.
@64aces,
I said the same thing in my post above:
“so I think in this sport luck does play a role…a small one but it does”…
I prefer to go by what Rafa said at the trophy ceremony. He wnt out of his way to congratulate Novak on the great year he is having, how well he’s done and being the best player at this time. He did not have to say all of that. But he did. He has the grace, dignity and class to acknowledge one of his rivals and the success he has had this year. That’s just another reason to love him and be proud to be his fan.
No one ever said that luck is never involved in winning. But the point was made here that Novak only won the match because of luck. I must have been watching a different match, because I saw a player who was hitting the lines with accuracy and precision at key moments in the match. Unfortunately for Rafa, he was missing shots in the key moments of the match. He has not been able to get his forehand back to being the formidable weapon that it has been in the past. I am sure that he will keep working to get his money shot back in full force. That could well have made the difference in this match.
The one shot that Rafa needs to be firing is the DTL forehand when playing Novak. That is the shot that has changed the dynamic of their matches. In 2013 that shot did tremendous damage when Rafa beat Novak at RG and at the USO. When Rafa had his chances, he missed with his DTL forehands. He will have to address this issue. I do think he came out of this match feeling good. He feels that he’s getting closer. I believe he will get there.
At times I am sure that Rafa will have some luck, but when all is said and done he is going to have to improve certain aspects of his game. I have said that we need Rafa back, because when he’s on his game he is the only player who can take down Novak. So I am rooting for him to get there. 🙂
When Rafa beat Kei in Madrid he admitted that he was lucky to win because Kei was the better player on the day. Rafa has admitted on other occasions that luck was on his side if he did a houdini and won a match when he was playing badly.
http://rlv.zcache.com/spanish_flag_bull_skull_wood_case-r722bf5df5b124a8fb15bea5f0a972f14_zj9tp_324.jpg
Well that’s a shock! Rafa admitting that he was lucky to win. How that relates to Novak beating him today, I have no idea. I guess Novak was supposed to take his trophy and say that it was all due to luck!
Rafa knows better. Maybe some people need to watch again and listen to what Rafa said.
he was lucky to win what?
Ricky,
Reference nadline’s comment @ 7:53 pm to the effect that Rafa admitted he was lucky to win in Madrid last year against Kei. I don’t see the relevance to this final. But there has been discussion and disagreement about Novak winning due to luck. I don’t agree with that, but others seem to think he was lucky and that’s why he got the win.
Novak was simply the better player. Rafa showed flashes of brilliance. Nothing more. He is not anywhere as consistent to beat Novak or any top player for the moment.
correct
Atul.
Yes! Thank you! That’s what I have been trying to stay amidst the comments that Novak was lucky. He hit the lines and made the shots when it counted. Rafa did not. As you said, Rafa did show flashes of his old self. But that’s not enough to get it done against Novak.
Djokovic has been ranked # 1 for 167 of the last 223 weeks, about 75% of the time, what does that prove? Djokovic has been way more consistent than Nadal 4 of the last 5 seasons, and he genuinely cares about all events. At the moment Djoker has such a big lead atop its very hard to imagine him losing his # 1 spot anytime soon.
Exactly, and with so many titles won and finals played right through the year, it’s very hard to see any player coming close to Djoker in the months ahead.
Indeed, this week sees Federer heading Nadal in the rankings for a year now, and with the Swiss banking big points over the summer months (and little to defend in Australia and on clay), it is difficult to see Nadal heading him again for quite some time to come. Nadal is amazing, but so are his key rivals. They make their own luck, frankly. That’s what champions do.
Now that’s something I can agree with! Champions make their own luck! Thanks! You really said it all. 🙂
Fed has lots of points to defend too early next year right through the USO – he won Brisbane, Dubai, Istanbul, Halle, Cincy, and reached the finals at IW, Rome, Wimbledon and USO – now that’s quite many points to defend for an old man at 34 or 35 yo!
Rafa will have his chances to overtake anyone not named Novak, as long as he can return to his ‘old self’ and wins titles. He only managed 1015 points from AO to Miami and 1500 points from MC to RG (EXCL Barcelona) in 2015; clearly he has room to add in many more points during these same periods next year.
As nearly every year now for so long…. the main rival in Rafa’s life (some years one of the two main rivals, Nole being the other) …. is … ranked nothing … but is his injuries (2015 was an exception) and the increasing challenge that is his pretty strong anxiety condition (or whatever you want to call it). It is in this that Nole and Roger have been lucky so often.
If Nadal had as few injuries as those two, and no particular anxiety issues, then both of them would have fewer titles today, and Rafa quite a few more. Next year is no different… if Rafa has not much injury-wise and somehow by sheer will and grit or otherwise his anxiety condition becomes much less, the way it was in earlier years, then it’s a whole other situation and Rafa would be strong competitor to Nole and Roger would not keep up points-wise.
There is almost the entire story of how good each year has been and will be for ‘our’ guy, imo: levels of injuries and levels of anxiety.
Chloro. Were you watching the final? All the indications are he is recovering slowly but surely from the paralysing state of anxiety. It was only in the first match, against the pumped up but to Rafa unkown opponent Di Wu, one could detect the familiar telltale signs of anxiety. Thereafter he dropped only one set (to Sock) on his way to the final. I would say it’s his fans who are now the more stressed!!!
I have said that I am not at all sure exactly what has been troubling Rafa this year. I am not willing to state that he has any kind of specific anxiety disorder. There are a lot of factors that can effect a player who has been at the very top of his sport for ten years. We don’t know all the variables.
There were some signs of a kind of burnout in 2011. Rafa himself said that he felt like he had been playing for 100 years instead of 10. He seemed to have lost the joy of competing. That year the one player he could not beat was Novak, who had come out strong with his unbeaten streak early that year. But Rafa was still getting to finals and could beat everyone else. Whatever was going on that year, Rafa came out in 2012 with a renewed spirit and his competitive desire was back. He did lose that epic AO final to Novak, but in the process found the answers to beating him.
I do not pretend to know exactly what is going on with Rafa. I think there is a strong mental aspect and his confidence and calm has not been there when he needs it most. That has been one of Rafa’s strongest assets. But there are also specific issues with his game that need to be addressed. He has to get that forehand working again. It’s his signature shot that sets up everything else. He seems to be serving better, so that’s an improvement. He has to be able to play at a higher level more consistently.
I do agree that there were some very encouraging signs during this tournament. Rafa seems more relaxed and more mentally present in his matches. He has been able to make adjustments as he did in his match with Sock. That’s something he was unable to do earlier this year. I think whatever has been bothering him seems to be resolving over time.
As a Rafa fan, I don’t feel stressed at this time. I have felt very stressed at different points throughout this year. If Rafa can get some decent results in the last few months of this year, it will set him up nicely for next year.
Ed,
Yes, I watched the final and I was VERY happy to see how well rafa played.
This is what I wrote a day earlier:
It was wonderful to see Rafa playing this well, for this year. Given that he says he isn’t going to make changes in his team or in working with a psychologist / psychotherapist and the like… some days I am hopeful that he will more or less conquer his anxiety enough next year to resemble the Rafa pre 2014
Novak is heads and tails above washed-up Fedal. He’s going to have both h2h soon. Nole is the new GOAT.
nowhere near yet
Lol good one
Test
Djokovic said as below
“The scoreline–especially in the first set–doesn’t indicate the real battle that we had on the court,” the world No. 1 assessed. “I’m aware of the fact that very few points can decide a winner of the matches I play against the biggest rivals, and Rafa is definitely one of them. He’s the kind of player that is a champion and understands the kind of challenge that a big match presents. He knows how to play on the big stage for the titles.
Thank you Djokovic for acknowledging the facts. Leave it to others to condemn Rafa as they do, no matter what.
I won’t bother to reply to this kind of accusation over and over (assuming you include me in your post here at 7:22 am)… I’ll just do it once here, unless this post disappears.
Nadline, you are a hypocrite of the worst kind, in at least two ways:
You accuse others of being mean when they are in fact not, and turn around to be more or less the only bully on this site that is a regular
You accuse others of condemning Rafa, attacking him, being less than loyal, not real fans, etc, etc… all lies… that is, any rafa fans who do not have a 100% black and white extreme view of the Rafa world, but instead are trying to see things as objectively as possible, whatever the facts may be, and not loving and supporting this exceptional man any less for doing so (…. arguably more so for it).
Analogy: is it better for a child if a loving parent sees everything about this child as being perfect at all times, or if the loving parent tries to see the child and its life as objectively as possible all the while loving it no less?
test
test 2 (double take)
+1 (my vote)
Wealth of info and statements from Rafa camp. What is this Nataste thing?
“The positive thing is that Rafael played really bad this year but he’s still seventh in the Race [to London for the ATP World Tour Finals]. That’s the best thing to come out of this, because it means he has enough space to come back faster,” Rafael’s uncle and coach Toni Nadal said in Beijing. “Mentally it hasn’t been easy because he isn’t used to losing, but in life things aren’t lasting for ever so you have to accept that. We’re moving forward, trying to train with a better focus and intensity. He is really improving, so I don’t know if his game will be back this season, but I believe Rafael will be very good again in 2016.”
“When you have longer without playing well, then it takes longer to play well again. It’s something that I accept, and I am working hard,” Rafael said. “I feel happy about every improvement, with the way we are working. I think we’re on the right way, with positive attitude from everybody in the team and knowing that things are difficult but that we can be there again.”
The question is: what point in his career is there? Is it his 2013 level of play, where he won the French and U.S. Opens, and eight ATP titles? Or is it simply making his game evolve again, or reconnecting his rivalry with Novak Djokovic?
“A bit of both,” said Toni about Rafael’s season two years ago and the development of his game. About the possibility of catching up with Djokovic, Toni is less optimistic.
“No, because at the moment we’re way too far from him,” he said with a sigh. “First we need to get the game back, and then we’ll be able to be competitive with everybody. But let’s not forget that you have young guns coming up now too, so it won’t be easy. Yet, if you’re mentally strong and you still want to be out there, then it will always be possible.”
After several tough losses and disappointments, Rafael’s motivation is still intact for the end of this season and for his ambitions for 2016. “My goal is to recover the level especially to play my best on clay next year,” he said.
“His confidence is built on that, his game is built on that,” Toni said of Roland Garros, where Rafael has won nine titles. “So yes, in order to regain those two we need to win back the clay. Of course we shouldn’t wait for the clay to start playing well again but the main goal remains to be again the No. 1 on the clay.”
And for this, there’s a clear plan set up for the months to come. Toni and Rafael have already changed some things at practice and assessed his game for areas of improvement.
“In 2013 his level was higher because his game was stronger. He was taking the ball more forward, he was going for his shots and for the points. This season, the legs have stopped a bit,” Toni said. “But when you are tighter, then the legs don’t move that well anymore. We need to do better and I think we know how.
“We’re working on how he moves, but mostly we need to get his forehand back. That’s what he’s been missing the most this year. But recently at training it’s been better, we just now lack the safety of knowing that he can repeat those sequences over and over again.”
Toni is still the main person in charge of bringing Rafael back to his best, but he’s also aware of recent comments suggesting that his nephew needs to try another coaching method. He says the remarks do not hurt him, but he isn’t impressed either. “It’s easy to talk, and many people are talking about a lot of things and many times they do without knowing. To know, you have to come and watch a practice session, you have to know what the coach is saying,” Toni said. “We’ll see if Rafael thinks that we must change or that we must add a super coach [smiling]. If I thought it’d be better for Rafael, I’d do it. I don’t want the best for me but for him. I’m the coach but I’m the uncle too. If he tells me that, I don’t know, [Ilie] Nastase is arriving, and then Rafael ends winning Roland Garros, I say come, come Nastase! I’d be very glad.”
Sanju (at 7:40 am),
I posted the same article on Rafa’s page on October 10, 2015 at 5:32 pm.
As for the Race to London, Rafa is currently No.6.
chloro,
Regarding your post @ 8:15 pm, all I can say is thanks. You and I have not always agreed, but somehow we can do so with mutual respect.
You said what I have been feeling and thinking and probably much better than I ever could. 🙂
Thank you Uncle Toni! Yes he said it. They have to get Rafa’s forehand back! That’s what I have been saying. I also appreciate that Uncle Toni also said that Rafa is too far from Novak at this time. That has a familiar ring to it! I guess it’s because some of us here have said the same thing. I sure hope that doesn’t make Uncle Toni a hater!
I found what he said very enlightening. They seem to have a plan and a sense as to what has to be done. I think we are seeing some of the improvement now. Little by little, bit by bit. I also think that Rafa made a good point when he said that if a player hasn’t played well in a long time, then it will take longer to get back. I think what Uncle Toni said about Rafa’s legs was also interesting. That the legs have stopped a bit, when you are tighter you don’t move as well. So it seems that he has a handle on what the issues are and how to improve.
However, about Nastase being Rafa’s coach, just NO! I am sure that Uncle Toni was joking!
Sanju,
Thanks for posting this! 🙂
hey, there are to say certain toxic comments about Rafa here…I understand praising Novak but please do not do it at Rafa’s expense…
And what is this story about Novak being the GOAT??? That is plain stupid thing to say…the guy has 10 GSs and still has a long way to go! Novak is lucky to be injury free but he cannot play at this level for another 2-3 years…his body will simply give up due to his style of playing those ridiculously long points and running like hell…it will come back at him sooner or later….
Novak does benefit from the weak field. Don’t tell me that it’s the same as for Rafa in 2008-2012 when Fed and Novak were strong opponents and Rafa had to fight them both…Rafa’s worst enemy is not Novak, it’s Rafa’s injuries…it is easy for Novak to dominate the field and be No1 where Rafa plays only half of the season and where Fed has reached the time when he has trouble competing at the best of five match due to his age…but Fed manages to beat Novak in finals and make him work hard even at the age of 35!
Rafa changing his tactics and playing shorter points in the future will confuse Novak…he has mastered Rafa’s game and now Rafa needs to change it once again and to come up with something new…I am sure he will…
And would you all please stop bashing Nadal…it is not his fault that he had to cope with injuries all his life…and then he had to cope with difficult comebacks…and then to meet high expectations from the fans and the public…Rafa has done well to deal with all of this…and the last thing he needs now is his fans analyzing how great Novak is and how Rafa’s game is nowhere near Novak’s…that is something Novak’s fans would never do…why can’t you just enjoy that Rafa has reached yet another final even though his form is not even near his best…
Hope you will all be able to give credit to Rafa when he comes back to his top level…I admire Rafa for being motivated to improve even though the whole world is busy analyzing his downward path…
Vamos Rafa!
Totally agree but you are speaking to deaf ears.
I never said that Novak was the GOAT. You say that he has 10 majors and still has along way to go, true to some extent but only 4 players have more than 10 majors in the open era and 2 of them are retired. Second thing majors are only 1 part of the GOAT debate, surely there is more to it than just the number of majors. Someone being GOAT is more of an opinion than a universal truth, and in this regard there are arguments for and against a number of players, So Please Spare us another GOAT debate.
Currently Rafa is the GOAT by a slight margin over Roger. Had Roger won the USO and gotten his 18th then his margin of four over Rafa would, in my opinion, put him back in that spot.
Novak could be the next GOAT but he’s not there yet. His quickest path by far would be to win the next two slams giving him his 12th (two behind Rafa), a career slam but even more importantly making him the current holder of all four slams, something never achieved by Roger nor Rafa.
no. Fed is goat in terms of accomplishments.
Disagree again. He leads in slams, (3 more) and weeks at No. 1 but Nadal has three more DCs, three more masters series, Olympic Gold.
He also is the only player without a losing record against anyone in the top 30 and his 23-10 domination of Federer (I’d call it an accomplishment) cannot be ignored.
It’s very close though. Agassi agrees.
Also Rafa achieved most of his accomplishments when two other GOAT contenders were at or near their peak.
Roger won his first 12 slams with no other GOAT near/at their peak.
And Fed hasn’t dominated a single slam the way that Rafa has dominated the French Open with nine titles. Fed has seven Wimbledons.
At one time or another, Sampras, Agassi, McEnroe, Djokovic and Murray have been on record saying that either Rafa is the GOAT or that Federer is not the GOAT because of what Rafa has achieved including his domination of Fed.
Quotes and sources available on request.
natashao: “and the last thing he needs now is his fans analyzing how great Novak is and how Rafa’s game is nowhere near Novak’s…”
You are hoping for pigs to fly or for hell to freeze over. Without the Rafa bashing, many have nothing else to say.
It’s not near Novak’s at the moment.
(It was better than Novak’s game today IMO when Rafa was at his peak.)
Neither bashing, thrashing nor trashing.
Just is.
There is something that makes today’s top tennis players less beatable( specially in a best of 5 set format) than top players from the past, r else how do you explain 3 GOAT contenders playing in the same era? I don’t think this has happened in any other popular sport. In golf the 2 GOAT contenders are Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods. Jack Nicklaus turned pro in 1961 and won his last major in 1986. Woods Turned pro in 1996, (35 years after Jack Nicklaus) and won his last major in 2007 ( 21 years after Jack Nicklaus had won his last). In Football, the 2 GOAT contenders Pele and Maradona are separated by a generational Gap, Pele is 20 years older than Maradona.
I disagree with your premise,
https://www.quora.com/Among-mens-singles-tennis-players-who-has-the-best-win-percentage-with-respect-to-grand-slams-1
The only slam where an active player has the highest winning percentage (i.e., less beatable is Rafa at the French Open).
Agassi has the highest winning percentage in Australia, Borg at Wimbledon and Sampras at the US Open.
But you have a point that we’ve never witnessed three GOAT contenders simultaneoulsy (Novak will soon be part of that equation no doubt.)
It’s probably a combination of drive, conditioning and science extending Roger’s career and allowing Rafa and Novak to take advantage of this with a little bit of coincidence thrown in for good measure.
Of course we had Roswell and Laver two former co-GOATS that competed at the same time.
Their slam totals are lower because they couldn’t play in as many slams as professionals.
Their slam totals (along with many other former greats) were also lower because many of them skipped Australia.
For example Jimmy Connors only bothered to travel to Australia twice. And McEnroe only played in his first Australian Open in 1983 (i.e., just once before winning his last slam).
Laver couldn’t play in slams for five years because he turned professional. Given that he won the calendar year the year before and repeated that feat seven years later, assuming he would have likely won two slams per year over those five years, he could have had 21 slams.
Similarly Rosewall had eight slams but was banned for 10 years during his prime because of his professional status.
Yes! I don’t know why it’s so hard to grasp this concept of acknowledging that Rafa is not near Novak’s level at this time. Instead of a lecture generally aimed at those who apparently have failed the requisite “Rafa fan test”, I would suggest that they read the interview that Sanju posted earlier on this topic thread. The one in which none other than Uncle Toni said that Rafa is not near Novak at this time. Uh oh! Does that make him a trasher or thrasher or whatever?
I am in good company with Uncle Toni. That’s okay by me! 🙂
Fabio Fognini’s sister rooted for Rafa:
https://twitter.com/Fulvia_Fognini/status/653174662323695616
🙂
It’s about time that someone acknowledged what went on with Laver and the other greats in his ear. It’s true that Laver was banned for five years because he turned professional. At that time amateur status was a requirement. It was quite bizarre to see players banned for playing as pros, which they obviously were. I also agree that Laver could well have had any number of slams, a good deal more than the 11 he has in the record books. Five years is a lot of time to be banned. Rosewall also went through it.
It’s amazing that they were able to do what they did. It’s one reason why I don’t like how they are left out of the discussion of the greatest players ever.
That says a lot about Fognini 🙂
There is rollicking piles of evidence to Support this premise.
1-Novak has 5 Australian open titles and he is 28 he has also won 4 of the last 5. Agassi won 4 and his last title came when he was almost 33, if Djokovic plays till he is 33 he could easily end up with 7 Aus open titles. Agassi didnt play Australian open all the tim, he missed the Australian open a number of times which gives him a higher win percentage.
2-Sampras has the best win percentage at US open,but both Sampras and Federer won 5 US open titles, the only difference being that Federer won 5 in a row, which made him less beatable. Pete won his first title in 1990 and his last came in 2002. Also Pete in1994 even lost to Jaime Yzaga . Imagine Federer( at the height of his career) losing at the US Open to a player whose career high ranking is # 18. Almost impossible. I think 5 tiles in 5 years makes you less beatable than 5 in 13.
3-Federer had a streak of 23 consecutive major semifinal appearances, before this generation the record was 10 by Ivan Lendl, Federer more than doubled his tally. Djokovic also had a streak of 14 consecutive major Semifinals in a row. Federer had the longest streaks of major quarterfinals and Finals.This level of consistency was unthinkable in the past.
4- Federer has the 2 longest hard court winning streaks.
4.1 Nadal has the longest clay court winning streak.
4.2 Federer has the longest Grass court winning streak.
With the possible exception of Nadal at Wimbledon past few years, even if these players lose at a major, they normally lose to the other top players, so effectively they are less beatable.
1 – no ifs in tennis. Agassi was more impressive because of his late age.
2 – Sampras was injured. Federer had the weak era.
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/07/sports/us-open-94-lots-of-pain-little-gain-sampras-upset-by-yzaga.html?pagewanted=all
3 – See Weak Era above.
4.0 – ditto
4.2 – ditto
The above stats in my earlier link speak for themselves especially considering the weak era.
As I said, Nole may be the GOAT within the next 8 months.
Head to Head record is only 1 part of the equation The single biggest criterion while measuring sporting greatness is who achieved more, therefore most of tour rebuttals are illogical, you beat whoever is put in front of you. Nadal has won 64% of his majors on clay and you know that only 1 of 4 or 25 % majors is played on clay. Nadal has won 70% of his career titles on clay, which proves that instead of playing well throughout the year, most of his success has been in a 3 month clay court swing, whereas Djokovic and Federer started playing well at the Australian open and continued to play well till World Tour Finals. Sampras Federer and Djokovic all have done better than Nadal at 3 of the 4 majors, all have been Ranked # 1 for longer Sampras 286 weeks and Federer 302 weeks, Nadal not even half as many weeks as either one of them. Sampras was year end #1 6 times in a row, Nadal never even finished back to back years as # 1 which is a testament to his inconsistency in non clay court events and his injury prone nature. Federer has been ranked # 1 for a whopping 161 more weeks more than Nadal and Sampras 286 weeks, more than twice as long as Nadal. Federer has 6 ATP world Tour Finals titles Sampras 5 Djokovic 4 and Nadal has 0. Davis Cup is a team competition, Tennis is an individual sport. Nadal has also lost to players ranked outside worlds top 100, 4 years in a row at the biggest tennis event, his conquerors were Rosol, Darcis, Kyrgios and Brown, an ignominy that neither Federer nor Djokovic has suffered at any major.
At one time or another, Sampras, Agassi, McEnroe, Djokovic and Murray have been on record agreeing with me and disagreeing with you.
I guess they are “illogical” too then.
Your original premise of the top guys being more difficult to beat vs in the past is not a matter of opinion (as opposed to GOAT, which is). I’ve shown irrefutable facts to the contrary.
Yes it is
Well yes if winning percentage in slams is opinion. :eyeroll:
#RickyMath
By cherry picking random data you can prove anything, top players today are less beatable than they were in the past.
Between Sampras’s first major to his last 18 different players won majors, the breakdown is as below
Pete Sampras 14
Agassi 8
Courier 4
Kuerten 3
Edberg 2
Becker 2
Kafelnikov 2
Bruguera 2
Rafter 2
Hewitt 2
Muster 1
Krajicek 1
Korda 1
Moya 1
Ivanisevic 1
Thomas Johansson 1
Albert Costa 1
Safin 1
Between Federer’s first major and his last How many players won majors? only 10 The breakdown is as below
Federer 17
Nadal 14
Djokovic 10
Murray 2
Stan Wawrinka 2
Roddick 1
Gaudio 1
Safin 1
Del Potro 1
Cilic 1
The same set of 4/5 players have been reaching the finals and semifinals of all majors events , more so before 2014, even Masters series events are rarely won by anybody else, a number of top 10/15 players have no Master series event to their credit, guys like Ferrer and Berdych have been on the tour for a decade and they have 1 each.
I meant between Federer’s first major to 2015.
Cherry picking my asterisk.
Individually, none of them are more beatable as shown in the math from all of the slams over all years, not just cherry picking time periods like you just did..
Hilarious!
Mark philippoussis had 2 wins over Pete at majors, even Karol Kucera beat Pete at 1998 Australian open.
Anecdotal cherry picking.
My link shows the complete picture over time and your premise is false.
Rafa’s career has not ended yet so let’s not talk as if he’s not going to win on surfaces other than clay or not getting back to no.1; no one can be sure of what lies ahead. No one is Goat so it’s a pointless argument Imo.
I do agree that Rafa at his peak was better than Novak at his peak, on clay and on grass, but.Novak is better on the HCs especially the slower ones at the AO. He’s definitely not as dominant at AO than Rafa is at FO or Fed is at Wimbledon, having to fight tooth and nail so often, going the distance there even in earlier rounds in order to win his AO.
how is no one GOAT?
one can list all the pros and cons for the GOAT debate and it will prove nothing…for now only Fed and Rafa are in the GOAT discussion and it will stay that way throughout the next year…unless those of you who speak in favor of Novak surpassing Nadal the very next year expect the Serb to win all 4 GSs and the Olympic Gold…well that is highly unlikely unless Novak is from the other planet and the weak field continues…I bet Rafa, Andy and Fed will have something to say about it too…tennis is so unpredictable…and as Uncle t says the young guns are there for their piece of pie..
I hope Rafa comes back strong next year and wins AO title for the beginning… just to shut everyone up… 🙂
Till he fixes his misfiring FH and wobbly serve, he is not winning any slam. He needs them both back to where they belonged. The errors from the FH are too many these days.
Superstar Rafael Nadal’s opening-match win over Di Wu in Beijing was indicative of the struggles the former No. 1 has had on the 2015 ATP World Tour. Although he won 6-4, 6-4, the Spaniard had to persevere through what is rapidly becoming his Achilles’ heel.
Is it his serve that is most holding him back? Has his return game been the primary culprit? Do we just chalk this up holistically as a package of age and diminishing footwork?
What is this most troublesome factor in Nadal’s game, and how has it prevented him from dominating his opponents the way he had in the previous decade?
By the Numbers
Nadal is sporting a very respectable 46-15 match record for the year, but he has slipped in big matches and has not appeared in a majors semifinal.
We are going to send you to the Rafael Nadal “player stats page” that ATP World Tour has organized for tennis fans who follow the tour. Users may examine his important career statistics and select individual seasons for comparison.
What part of Nadal’s serving or returns was hurting him most? We charted his career results and selected three past outstanding seasons to compare with 2015. All numbers below are percentages, unless noted:
Service Record 2008 2010 2013 2015 career
1st serve points won 72 75 73 72 72
2nd serve points won 60 60 57 55 57
break points saved 67 69 69 62 66
service games won 88 90 88 83 85
service points won 68 70 68 66 67
It’s noteworthy that Nadal’s first serve is equal to 2008 and his career average. This does not appear to be the difference in dropping to No. 7 in the world. His second-serve percentage dips a full 2 percent below his career average, but even this is not enough to fully explain his relative struggles in 2015.
How about break points saved? Now we are getting closer. Nadal is saving only 62 percent, which is a more significant 4 percent drop from his career average and much lower than 2010 and 2013.
But that’s only part of the story.
Return Record 2008 2010 2013 2015 career
1st serve return points won 34 31 35 34 34
2nd serve return points won 55 55 54 54 55
break points converted 45 44 47 43 45
return games won 33 29 34 33 33
return points won 43 40 42 42 42
total points won 55 55 55 54 54
OK, the problem is definitely not service returns. Both categories mirror his career average and 2008. It’s actually a better combination than 2010, his fabled three-Slam year.
But once again, there is a noteworthy glitch that indicates his problem: He is only 43 percent with break points converted, which is significant given that his return points and total points won are also in line with his career averages.
So, we have established that Nadal’s two most important struggles are saving break points and converting break points, the former behind his offensive game and the latter from his defensive game. Is failing to deliver at the most crucial points an indication that he is not delivering under pressure
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2576668-the-biggest-factor-in-rafael-nadals-2015-struggles
That leads us to the most important point of all.
These stats are flawed in that Rafa, on average, is playing lower ranked opponents because he is going out earlier in tournaments so if he was playing as well, his stats should be higher than average against these lower ranked opponents.
I was intrigued by the ATP statistics on Rafa’s game…according to those numbers Rafa is not doing much worse than in his best days…
the only exception is facing more break points…it is “causing him to deal with more pressure. These break points are pressure points that can best explain who wins matches, especially big matches. There’s no question that Nadal was more in control and more dominant in 2010″…
so it’s all mental as we all agreed at some point…
Am not a fan of BR but this article throws an interesting perspective on the ups and downs Rafa is experiencing.
#WorkInProgress
Yes it is all mental as I’ve said for quite some time as Rafa has repeatedly confirmed.
Disagree with the stats analysis though.
I see your point on stats though…but if you argue that Rafa always experienced issues in earlier stages of the tournaments this stats is relevant…we all know that in the past once reaching the later stages of the tournaments Rafa becomes better and his stats improves tremendously even against the top ranked players…this year he was not able to reach later stages in most of those tourneys although as Rafa rightly pointed out he was most of the time so close to winning and managed to lose when he was supposed to win…mental that is…
I just don’t think that the stats are apples-to-apples directly comparable as implied in that article.
I see the GOAT debates rages on but now with a third party in the arguments. In my mind it is a pointless exercise particularly when the arguments include the entire span of tennis: the two eras are not comparable.
But for those of you who indulge in the Goat hypothesis I have two questions.
Q1: which is the more impressive – that Rafa has won two slams on grass (Roger’s favourite surface) whereas Federer has only one slam on clay (Rafa’s favourite surface).
Q2: which is the more impressive – that since Rafa first slam title he won one or more for ten consecutive years ( 2005-2014) whereas Federer won one or more for seven consecutive years
love your questions/arguments… 🙂
Nats: ?
If it amuses people it’s OK by me. I’ve got better things to do than spend my time combing the stats to find spurious arguments to support the definition of greatness. Back in 2008 on TT I said they can stick the Goat crown on Federer’s head for all I care – Rafa is and always will be the KTC (King of Tennis Champions)
While on the subject of greatness, I’ve noticed more and more commentators cannot refer to Djokovic without appending ‘The GREATEST Tennis Player In The WORLD’. Even the MTF at the height of his powers didn’t get that level of sycophantic worship.
Also that Rafa beat Roger to win one of his Wimbledon titles but Fed didn’t have to beat Rafa to win RG.
true indeed…and that Novak managed to beat Rafa in his worst form ever at the RG and yet failed to win the title… 🙂