There is always the potential for magic on the lawns of Wimbledon. Or to be more precise, the dirt of Wimbledon, since the Tennis Unicorns usually only come out to frolic once the grass is nothing but a distant opening-day memory.
It’s not always so, of course. Sometimes there is just a dude crying into his towel because he has a blister, which is about as magical as a trip to the dentist. But generally there’s something about the All-England Club that makes the tennis feel a little more special.
Sure. This year’s men’s final was…well…it was less than compelling. For two sets, Novak Djokovic was basically playing against the Tin Man prior to his oil can treatment. You could almost hear Kevin Anderson’s joints squeaking in protest as he stretched into his service motion. And it’s not like you can blame him: he spent like 720 hours on court between the Roger Federer and John Isner matches. Still, one always holds out hope that we will get a match that rivals the 2008 final, not a match that rivals a first-round showdown in Marrakech.
The good news for tennis fans is everything that was missing in the Wimbledon final was present and accounted for in the Djokovic-Rafael semifinal. That match built to an exciting crescendo over two days and five sets. By the fifth set, the tennis was exquisite: the two men played increasingly risky tennis with increasingly impressive results. They pasted lines with forehands, feathered volleys and drop shots, ran like they could keep running forever.
That Djokovic nearly always seems to come out on top in these thriller matches against Nadal is not lost on me. Something about the Spaniard (to his obvious detriment) brings out Djokovic’s best tennis. The Serb had a rough 18 months, no doubt about it. His form was such that each time he stepped onto the court, one got the feeling that he could lose to anybody on the right (or wrong) day. On the other hand, he also carried with him the potential to re-find his form and to decimate the field once again. In short, he possesses an aura of greatness that dims and brightens, but never fades completely. And boy, did it shine at Wimbledon.
That Nadal nearly always seems to make up one half of the “greatest” matches is also not lost on me. The world No. 1 has something; a special quality that exists in other elite members of our sport, but Nadal…well, he seems to have more of it. He has all the “normal” ingredients: talent, mental toughness, a near-ridiculous work ethic, the drive for constant improvement, his obvious physical giftedness. But he also has something that is slightly harder to pinpoint. Tennis pundits like to call them intangibles. I recognize them as Nadal’s rather bizarre (for lack of a better word) predilection for gritty, almost single-minded optimism combined with his willingness to suffer on court. It makes him (arguably) one of the greatest five-set players of all time.
I have little doubt that Djokovic will continue to give Nadal difficulty. I have little doubt that Nadal will continue to look for solutions. And in the meantime, the tennis world will sit back and enjoy, while we still can, the most prolific rivalry in the Open Era.
On a tangentially related topic, it bears noting that the ATP’s Next Gen players were a hair’s breadth from impotent at the All-England Club. All four semifinalists were in their thirties. Of the eight quarterfinalists, only Milos Raonic and Kei Nishikori were in their twenties, and they’re hardly fresh faces at ages 27 and 28. To put into perspective exactly what is happening in the men’s game, consider that in 2008, the Greatest Match of All Time was played by Federer, age 26, and Nadal age 22…and that was their third consecutive year facing each other in the finals.
It would be easy to lay the blame at the feet of the youngsters, to castigate them for their collectively poor slam performances. And that’s a part of it, no doubt about it. But we are also experiencing an era of dominance by a select few players that we have never seen before. Three of the four players with the most Grand Slam titles in the Open Era are from the same generation. Alexander Zverev, Nick Kyrgios, and company are essentially fighting over the slam scraps. Still…it makes one wonder if we will ever see another Nadal-like wunderkind.
nice one, Cheryl
The problem with Rafa: I rarely see him playing perfect tennis with EVERY of his weapons or EVERY part of his game working well ALL at the same time. For me, only at a few tournaments that I saw that happened, ie FO2008, FO2017, AO2009, USO2010, USO2013. Other than those, he seemed to lack something each time he took to the court – like not having a good BH; not having a good serve; FH misfiring for example. At this Wimbledon, it’s obvious his serve let him down especially during crucial moments.
Djoko, OTOH, could have most of his weapons working perfectly well often, it’s only his overhead smashes that’s about the most atrocious part of his game. His serve, returns, FH, BH, volleying, even his BH slices that were once awful looking, now worked perfectly well, not to mention his incredible footwork and foot speed, his ability to retrieve and to stay in a point longer that almost anyone. I finally agree with those who said that he’s the perfect tennis player; he just has everything and can win on any surface, and if not for Rafa on clay, he could dominate on any surface.
The best thing about the 2018 Wimbledon is that websites are not flooded on a daily basis with Fed fanatics’ worship of their beloved one.
Djokovic was definitely not at his best in the SF. He was better against Anderson in the final but even that was shy of his 2014-15 wimby best. Had he been at that level, I think the SF over Nadal would have been fairly straightforward -unless Rafa could serve significantly better.
My god Joe the way you look down on and patronize Rafa is really something! I have seen it over and over including at Rg a tournament he has won 11 times!
Cheryl said after the match that if they had played it under normal conditions without the roof she believed rafa would have won it in four. I agree.
Oh and btw I never ever write about Fed the way you write about Rafa. As soon as Rafa lost you were saying he would never win another non clay slam….And you wonder why people here get so irritated with you!
I would never have written something similar about Fed.
amy,
I agree with you. I have noticed this obvious bias from Joe Smith many times. He loves to point out when there are some mean-spirited posts from a Rafa fan, but ignores the kind of hatespeak that we had to experience after Rafa lost at Wimbledon.
I made a point of saying that when Fed had his shocking loss to Anderson in the quarterfinals, there was no trash talk about it on this site.
His analysis of Rafa’s matches is so distorted by his complete bias as a die hard Fedfan, that it cannot be taken seriously,
Exactly what “hatespeak” do you have in mind? The worst I saw was from grassgoat, who was obviously just passing by, but in any case wasn’t nearly as bad as Hawkeye. Grassgoat’s comments were about the same level as what Augusta regularly posts about Federer.
Joe Smith says AT 3:50 AM: “Grassgoat’s comments were about the same level as what Augusta regularly posts about Federer.”
===
Hmm. I don’t post REGULARLY about Fed whom you are regularly worshiping.
Whenever you post about Federer, it’s about as critical as grassgoat was about Nadal.
I’m not complaining, mind you. That’s because I don’t worship any player, unlike you.
Joe Smith AT 8:50 AM,
I remember that I have commented on Fed’s nastiness towards Rafa.
Augusta and grassgoat are not on the same level joe!
Since when did Augusta refer to you in sexist language calling you one of the Federer fanboys?!
Augusta made comments about David Foster Wallace that many people on this site, including Hawkeye and littlefoot, took as deeply offensive to mentally ill persons. She wrote it because Wallace is a passionate Fedfan, and she did not apologize.
I take that as comparable or worse to anything grassgoat said. The latter may never return to this site, whereas the former is a regular poster.
I condemn calling Rafa fans on this site “fangirls”. I would never single out women in that offensive way.
Joe Smith says AT 10:30 PM: “Augusta made comments about David Foster Wallace…”
===
Hmm. I commented on the words of the author of the article posted on Rafa’s page. He, a die-hard Fedfan, wrote: “Think of it: Where are the paeans to Rafa, where is the prose-poetry to describe his tennis, where is his David Foster Wallace? ”
Yes, it makes me laugh that the diehard Fedfan is amazed that Rafa fans haven’t had ‘religious experiences’ while watching Rafa (like DFW, who wrote the article “Roger Federer as Religious Experience”).
Yes, it makes me laugh that the diehard Fedfan considers it normal to have ‘religious experiences’ while watching an athlete.
https://tenngrand.com/social/player-pages/rafael-nadal/comment-page-184/#comment-306424
Augusta, I accept that you didn’t mean to offend persons with mental illness. However, you might clarify explicitly to remove any doubt, instead of repeating the experience that made you laugh.
What does one fan’s (DFW) reaction mean, anyway? I very much doubt that Fed fans in general are more fanatical than Rafa fans. It’s certainly not true of fans on this site.
Joe Smith AT 8:57 PM,
I repeat: it makes me laugh that the diehard Fedfan (the author of the article posted on Rafa’s page on JUNE 29, 2018 AT 3:01 AM) considers it normal to have ‘religious experience’ while watching Fed.
Hi nny!!😀 hope you’re well hon??
amy,
I am doing fine! I hope you are feeling better. I know that the heat was getting to you. I also hope that you were able to move on from the disappointment of Rafa’s loss. I understood where you were coming from. We have waited seven long years to see Rafa get a good result at Wimbledon. It was tough to see it be so close, but the great news is that Rafa is healthy and playing some of his best tennis.
Amy, I gave an opinion. I did not insult Nadal in any way, nor did I patronize him. The SF was a great match, and if you go and look at my comments from the preview article (with 800 or so comments), you’ll see that I said Nadal was (slightly) better than Djokovic in all aspects of the game except one: the serve. You’ll also notice that I qualified my comment above, in saying that if Nadal had a better serve then Novak wouldn’t have won handily. Unfortunately for Nadal, as I’ve said many times, the serve is the most important shot in tennis. And he currently has one of the worst serves on the men’s tour in the top, say 25 or even 50. It just goes to show how good the rest of his game is.
As I’ve said before, I would take your (and NNY’s, Sanju’s, and others’) protestations more seriously if I saw you being at all consistent with respect to Rafa fans’ comments, notably Hawkeye’s. As you probably know, he used to refer to Federer (on another site) as “Punchbag” due to his losses to Nadal -which is nothing compared to what he calls contributors to this site, including me. I have never seen you or any Rafa fan here complain, even when he spews truly vile insults like calling me a racist and a homophobe. That tells me all I need to know about what matters more to you: treating others with minimal respect, or being a Rafa fan.
It’s because of reactions like yours above that I have likened many Rafa fans on this site to religious fanatics. You react to the mildest criticism of Nadal in the way that Stanley does when I have challenged him to say why he thinks God exists.
Oh for heavens sake Joe! Every time I say anything to you you bring hawkeye into it! I wasn’t even here on site from late November until April! I spend long periods of time busy with other things so I don’t even see a lot of what goes on here. And when I do post here I don’t read the long threads where people
argue about who is goat and so on. I find such discussions tedious and I don’t believe in the whole goat thing so I just don’t read them. You are imputing a knowledge of hawkeye ‘s comments to you which I don’t even
possess.
The idea that I am just on team Nadal here is an utter joke frankly! I have had several run ins with rafa fans here who bullied other people and I have called them out for attacking other players. I like all 3 of rafa Fed and nole! Is that so hard to understand!?
The idea of me as some kind of rafa fanatic when I have been accused repeatedly of being a nole fan is quite something.
And honestly Joe however overrated you think Rafa is the way you write about him in a patronizing and disparaging manner at RG does reveal your prejudices. If you want examples i will furnish you with them.
As I said before I don’t write about Fed in the way you write about Rafa.
Oh and your comparison of anyone on this site with Stanley apart from grassgoat and jim is absurd.
Stanley has written a plethora of posts attacking numerous women here for their views saying they are evil, wicked and going to hell and so on. He has done this on the match day threads!
His attitude towards women is appalling and what unites all 3 of he grassgoat and jim is how misogynistic and sexist they are.
Oh and please don’t bring hawkeye into every answer again! It’s just a free pass for you not to answer.
Ps I do remember that during RG a number of us were saying we wanted jim banned from the match day threads. You appeared to think we were talking about you! I did leave you a post afterwards to explain that our remarks were not directed towards you.
amy,
Wow! That is all I can say in response up your last two posts to Joe Smith! Right on! Thank you for saying that him bringing up Hawkeye repeatedly is just an excuse. Stanley’s hateful tirades against women and calling them baby killers and all his other political garbage? Is worse than anything I have had to read here.
I made the point to Joe Smith that I have addressed some issues with Hawkeye, but as you said I am not always here and when I am, I choose not to participate in the endless GOAT debate. To me it’s pointless until these great players retire. Then their careers can be analyzed in their totality.
Bringing up Hawkeye so many times and using his comments to try and go after other Rafa fans, is just so much nonsense. Stanley’s political rantings and ravings were far more toxic.
Rafa fans had to read hatespeak after gevlist to Novak. Fed fans did not have to read any of that kind of garbage after he lost. Period.
I have also been accused of being a closet Novak fan. You know all about the attacks directed at me to the effect that I secretly hate Rafa and love Novak, were from a few Rafa fans who decided they were the only real Rafa fans here. They sat in judgment on other Rafa fans. So while Joe Smith is obsessed with talking about what Hawkeye has said about him, you and I have been targeted by Rafa fans in a very spiteful and mean-spirited way.
Thanks for saying it all so well!
😘
Nny hon I have now written 2 posts which have disappeared one of which was to you!😢
I am giving up for a while!!!
Will try later on!
Amy, I am sorry if I have mischaracterized you.
Regarding what I write about Nadal, it is true that I am not a fan and that I (like everyone) have my biases. However, if you have paid any attention at all, you will know that I have said many positive things about him, both personally and as a tennis player. At both Wimbledon and during the clay court season I marvelled at how intelligent of a player he is. I also defended him against charges of doping by grassgoat.
Here’s a suggestion. Stick to tennis, and don’t worry about my motives or my tone, which whatever else it may be, is not obviously insulting or offensive. If I say that I think a top-form Djokovic would have beaten Nadal soundly, either say why you disagree, or ignore me. Why accuse me of being patronizing?
Regarding Stanley and Hawkeye. The former is a religious fundamentalist. He has expressed sexist, homophobic, hateful things. I have condemned them -and do again- but knowing that they are part and parcel of his religious fundamentalism, I don’t see that there is much more to say. Mostly I ignore him. However, it should be noted that he has really tried to be civil to many people on this site in recent months, including Hawkeye, who has not returned the favour, to put in mildly.
Regarding Hawkeye, as I said, I will take your accusations more seriously when I see you lift a finger to criticize his hateful speech toward me and others. I don’t take to being called a racist homophobe lightly, and (in my book) no one else here should do so either. I have said before, and will repeat: if he apologizes for calling me those things, I will let the past be.
To NNY: You have never called out Hawkeye for what I am talking about, unless you very recent post counts as that. If I’m not mistaken, your previous exchanges with him have been over personal disputes between the two of you. That’s understandable, but it’s different from what I’m talking about. In my book, if a friend does or says something horrible to someone else, you call him out on it. That’s actually being a friend, holding them to a minimally decent standard of behaviour. But when people like Amy, littlefoot and other Rafa fans, along with Benny, Kevin and other Fed fans, remain chummy with Hawkeye even when he is a total jerk toward others, they fail to uphold that principle.
Joe Smith,
You know, I have really had it with your attitude at this point. I know why I confronted Hawkeye and certainly don’t need you to remind me what it was about. But unlike you, I did not expect other Rafa fans to join in and condemn him and fight my battles for me. Which seems to be what you want us to do. Your whole assumption that no one said anything to Hawkeye because he is a Rafa fan, is your own skewed perspective. No one jumped in to get involved when I had my dispute with Hawkeye. People may not care to get involved when things get nasty and personal between posters.
The idea that Rafa fans all stick together no matter what, is also not accurate. I spoke about being attacked by certain Rafa fans when I was critical of Rafa or Uncle Toni. Amy has been a target also. We have both been accused of not being real Rafa fans. That is quite galling. To have someone who does not know you, tell you who you are or are not a fan of, is really beyond insulting.
I advised you to contact Ricky. That is one way to deal with comments you feel are personally offensive. But the fact that others did not join in to defend you does not have anything to do with you being attacked by a Rafa fan. You seem to think that we all have to prove ourselves somehow by going on the record or we are also guilty by inference. Others did not get involved when I confronted Hawkeye. It was my battle. So why should you expect anyone to fight your battles?
You are just using what Hawkeye says to you and trying to condemn the rest of us as Rafa fans who said nothing because we all stick together. That is your biased take on it.
To be totally clear, NNY: I don’t expect you, or anyone else, to fight my battles for me. I dont’ care what Hawkeye or anyone here says to me; in his case my response has been to stop engaging with him. I could care less what you think of my ‘attitude’.
But you’ll forgive me if I don’t shed any crocodile tears when people like you complain about my ‘patronizing’ tone. The whole point is that it’s obvious that your complaints have more to do with the content of what I say (critical of Nadal) than it does with anything else. I have my opinions about your tone as well, which I have sometimes raised, but not repeatedly.
Perhaps we can agree on this: stick to the tennis, and forget the rest.
Incidentally, I said Nadal would never win another non-clay slam before Wimbledon started; indeed I’ve been saying it since he won the USO last year. I also said that if he proved me wrong I would be the first to admit it.
Joe – I’m not sure I understand that sentiment…or to be more precise, I heartily disagree with it. Djokovic wasn’t “better” in the final, he was more comfortable in the final. I’m sure you would stipulate that Anderson could hardly serve…and Anderson without a serve? Well, as I said in my post…Marrakech first round.
Nadal and Djokovic are such great retrievers, so good at turning defense to offense, that they are forced to take riskier and riskier shots when they play each other to keep control of the point. I simply do not believe there is any comparison between the semi and the final.
Joe always constructs arguments which have the same endpoint of patronising rafa. The first conversation i ever had with him was at last year’s Rg after thiem defeated a sub par Nole who basically gave up after the first set. I was complimenting thiem on his good play and joe immediately began to opine that thiem’s match against Rafa was all on thiem’s racquet &tc ..that was when I first became aware of how he always constructs arguments involving comparisons with other players where rafa is deemed as intrinsically inferior. To make such a comparison between rafa with 9 Rg titles and thiem playing a very out of form Novak is all too typical.
True, and even when Rafa was playing almost perfect tennis at RG last year, Joe still could come up with ‘the match was on so and so’s racket’ when they played against Rafa. He even said that had Stan played like his 2015 FO, he could beat Rafa. Rafa wasn’t Djoko, his lefty topspin FH to Stan’s (also Thiem’s, Fed’s) SHBH was always the killer shot. It’s not like they had not played before on clay, and Rafa was beating Stan all the time except once in 2015 when Rafa was losing to almost anyone even on clay.
The Rafa in 2017 on clay, no comparison to his 2015 version or even his any other version on clay except maybe his 2008 FO, and that’s how good he was in 2017.
I regularly say that the match is on the stronger, bigger hitting player’s racquet, including sometimes when it’s one of Federer’s opponents. That doesn’t mean I think that player is favoured.
Yes, I said -prior to the 2017 final- that had Stan played like 2015 he could beat Rafa. I’m not sure he could beat 2017 final Rafa, which was the best I’ve ever seen him play. But I think it would be very close. As you know, I think Stan lost self-belief early in that match, and was a shadow of his 2015 self.
I think a big part of your and others’ problem with my comments about Nadal is simply that I don’t think he’s as good as Rafa fans’ think he is, especially off clay.
Excuse me Joe, the way Rafa played even prior to final of 2017, that was the telling sign that Rafa was going to beat Stan, in whatever form Stan was! Didn’t you see how he schooled Thiem in the SF? You’re just your usual self, always doubting Rafa, always thinking that he’s not as good as he really is/was.
Well, I disagree. Stan had already established himself as someone who brings his very best to GS finals, and I thought he would do it again. I said at the time that if he didn’t bring that level he would definitely lose, but I thought if he could play his very best he had the edge.
I never predicted that Thiem would win that SF match. Again, I said that if he could bring the level he brought to their previous meeting in Rome (which Thiem won), he had a good chance. And I may have said that the match was on Thiem’s racquet, by which I simply meant that he was the more attacking, aggressive player.
Joe, so what its a slam final? Its as if you’re saying Rafa was a green horn in a slam final! Come on, Rafa had not lost a slam final to anyone outside of Fed and Djoko when he’s fit and healthy (he lost his AO2014 because he couldnt even compete as he’d injured his back). When Rafa was playing so well and on clay, you think Stan had any edge?
You talk about Rome, come on Rome wasnt RG, you think Rafa would play the same way against Thiem?. Isnt it the same this year when they met at Madrid and then at RG?
Rafa has not won all five events on clay within a season, not even once, and he has won 11 FOs by now, so isnt that telling, that losing one match on clay before the FO wont make any difference to him winning the FO title?
Again I disagree. Rafa was fine for the first set and a half at the AO 2014, and he was getting blown off the court. His very healthy best would not have beaten Wawrinka the way he was playing. So that match was in my mind as well prior to RG final last year.
Nah, it’s a best of five, I doubt Stan could sustain his style over five sets had Rafa been healthy. Also, Stan was really a green horn in that AO final; just watched how he lost his temper when he was made to wait for the umpire to explain to him what happened to Rafa!
No one can say for sure Rafa won’t be able to fight back if not for his back injury. He might win or he might lose, no one can say for sure!
Joe Smith says AT 8:48 AM:”Rafa was fine for the first set and a half at the AO 2014″.
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Your fellow Fedfans have spread the same lie everywhere over 4 years.
Rafa got injured during the AO 2014 final warm-up (on the court).
And again Joe, it just showed how much you could go to belittle Rafa! Rafa at FO2017 was fit and healthy, whilst at AO2014 he was injured, and you’re here comparing Stan on clay vs a fit Rafa who was playing well on clay and you assumed that Stan could have an edge over Rafa? Just because he beat Djoko (who’s no Rafa on clay) and just because he blown Rafa away for one and a half sets at AO2014? Have you forgotten an injured Rafa had gotten a set from Stan too? Had Rafa with a healthy back played that way from third set onwards; who’s to say he wont have any chances of winning?
It wont change the fact that Rafa lost slam finals to Fed and Djoko only, when hes fit. Its obvious he’s not physically fit when he lost to Stan at AO and its a fact.
No you didn’t Joe you said that the match was on thiem’s racquet on the basis of how he played against Novak! You may have brought rome into it but neither point holds water given thiem was playing the greatest clay courter ever in form at Rg!
And you think Stan ‘s best beats an in form rafa at Rg in the final!!?? Seriously! If rafa is in form on clay the only player who can come close to him is Nole.
Stan has huge problems against rafa’s topspin with his single handed backhand!
And thiem is not the more attacking aggressive player unless you call spattering around wild strokes which go out aggressive.
Rafa is every bit and more aggressive in clay as thiem he just doesn’t try to brainlessly hit winners out of nowhere.
Go look at how he played against Nole in the fifth set of RG 2013! No one on the tour apart from rafa and Nole can play at that level.
Augusta@10:35: I know that Nadal says he was injured in the warm-up, but find me a quote where Rafa says the injury affected him in the 1st set. There was no outward sign of it as there clearly was half-way through the second set.
I stand by my claim: Nadal’s very best on HC, in any year, would have gotten beaten by Wawrinka at the level he played for the first two sets in AO 2014. Serve was too hard, groundstrokes were too powerful and accurate. Rafa had no answers.
FWIW I think any of the big four would probably have gotten cleaned up as well facing that level of tennis. Maybe Novak 2016 AO was as good.
Joe Smith says AT 10:01 PM: “I know that Nadal says he was injured in the warm-up, but find me a quote where Rafa says the injury affected him in the 1st set.”
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It would be amazing if pulling a muscle in the lower back didn’t affect a tennis player’s performance.
An excerpt from Rafa’s POST-MATCH press conference on January 26, 2014:
¤¤ Question. “Obviously a very difficult occasion for you emotionally. Did your back go when you played that forehand in the first game of the second set when you doubled over?”
RAFAEL NADAL: “No. The back, since the BEGINNING I felt a little bit, from the WARMUP. It was a little bit worst in the first set. End of the first set, I start to feel worst.
Then at the beginning of the second was the key moment that I felt, during a serve in a bad movement, is very stiff, very bad. That’s not the real moment to talk about that…” ¤¤
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=95672
Yes, “a little bit worst [sic]” in the first set, but not really felt until the second. Nadal’s injury was not evident in his play until then.
There are any number of minor injuries that players suffer, during or before playing, that affect their performance. To me, the most obvious sign of Nadal’s injury in that AO final was in the significantly reduced velocity on the serve, which did not occur until the second set. Rafa was hitting the ball just fine in the first set, but Wawrinka was hitting it much better.
Well, Cheryl, you yourself say in your article that in the first two sets Anderson was like the tin man prior to his oil treatment. He obviously wasn’t the same player that he was in the previous two matches, though he improved considerably in the 3rd.
I watched both Novak matches (SF and F) in their entirety. The main difference I saw (and the reason I think he played better in the final) was his ROS. He pasted Anderson’s serves back at him, including many of the (few) 1st serves Anderson put in during sets 1 and 2. In his SF match against Nadal, Djokovic generated many more break points, because Rafa’s serve wasn’t that good. Some of those Nadal saved with great play, but (from memory) most of them were UE on Novak’s part. And (again from memory) many of those were relatively easy 2nd serve returns that Djokovic missed. I think if Novak had returned against Nadal the way he did against Anderson, the SF match wouldn’t have been as close.
this is a blog not an article, FWIW
Joe, Rafa’s serve wasn’t big but it’s tricky to return. Delpo had plenty of problems returning Rafa’s serves and Djoko also had problems.
Djoko had BPs but couldn’t convert many because of Rafa’s tricky serves. Remember in 2017, Rafa was winning high percentages of his second serves, his first serve might have deteriorated but his second serve was still reliable most of the times.
The final was played entirely outdoors, making it more difficult to serve well because of the wind, Anderson was also more tired after his SF, hence Djoko appeared to return better (than the SF). Djoko himself also struggled to save BPs in the final set of his final match.
The Rafa/Djoko SF was played completely indoors and yet the match was so close, if it’s played outdoors, it’s not difficult to see who would likely win it.
Hmm. We seem to be observing the exact same set of circumstances, but coming to opposite conclusions about them. It’s what makes the world go ’round, I suppose. 🙂
I’ll try this one more time, just so what I’m trying to say is clear to you. After that, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Of COURSE Djokovic’s return of serve was better in the final. He was playing against a guy who couldn’t serve. The efficacy of Anderson’s serve is predicated upon placement and speed. Because he wasn’t able to coil and uncoil properly into his service motion, he was sorely lacking the second. You could have put Nadal, Federer, or Del Potro in that final and they would have looked like ROS geniuses.
My point is that I don’t think you can compare the matches.
Cheryl,
It is so wonderful to have you back here again. Thank you for clarifying your points about the final. You are always patient and gracious. Of course, I think you make perfect sense!
😀
Agree that Anderson’s serve wasn’t hard to return in the final because it lacked oomph. But Nadal’s second serve is not hard to return, generally, especially for Novak. He simply did not do a good job of returning in on big points (particularly BPs) in the SF.
Ah. I understand the difference now. You assume that Nadal’s success with his second serve in that match is due to a malfunction of the Djokovic return. By contrast, I assume that any player of Nadal’s caliber usually enjoys success because of what he’s doing rather than what his opponent is NOT doing. I offer that same benefit of the doubt to Federer and Djokovic.
I think it likely that Nadal was doing something to the movement of his second serve, especially since Djokovic didn’t seem to be struggling on the first serve.
I agree that Novak didn’t have as much problem with Rafa’s first serve. But it’s very unlikely that Nadal’s *second* serve was objectively more difficult to handle than his first.
The large number of break chances Novak generated suggests that he wasn’t having trouble with Nadal’s serve in general. Djokovic simply under-performed on key big points, often against Nadal’s second serve.
Cheryl, you say: “I assume that any player of Nadal’s caliber usually enjoys success because of what he’s doing rather than what his opponent is NOT doing.”
This might be true if you were comparing Nadal against someone ranked 200 in the world, but not necessarily against Djokovic. More important, I really think it depends on the particular dynamic being compared.
In this case, given Nadal’s second serve, and Djokovic’s best-in-the-game ROS, I think the outcome (of this particular dynamic in the long run) can be expected to be on the latter’s racquet.
How typical of you Joe, when Djoko wasn’t playing well against Rafa, it had nothing to do with Rafa but with Djoko! Rafa’s second serve was tricky, on any surface and that’s why Jesely, Delpo, Kukushkin and Djoko himself were having problems returning them. It’s not surprising that Rafa had Low % in first serve, sometimes even as Low as 50+% though on grass he tend to serve better.
Come on, don’t be biased, I’ve listed down the various stages of their career when they met, go check it! Their rivalry was as even as one could get, when both were playing well during their prime; it’s during Rafa’s slump that Djoko got the adv again, and now he’s only two wins ahead. People were overwhelmed by Djoko’s seven in a row both times, but the second time was due mainly to Rafa’s slump more than anything else.
Lucky, the *only* thing I’m talking about here is Nadal 2nd serve vs. Novak’s ROS. And all I’ve said is that Novak under-performed on big points against the Nadal 2nd serve in that SF. That’s all.
The point has nothing to do with their history, with who is and should have been favoured, or even who played better in this match overall.
If you compare Nadal’s ability to win 2nd serves off clay in the last year, it’s very good, but hardly the best (5th on HC, 12th on grass). Of course he’s by far the best at it on clay, where the serve is least important.
https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/leaderboard?boardType=serve&timeFrame=52Week&surface=all&versusRank=all&formerNo1=false
Joe, you yourself mentioned, that:
‘In this case, given Nadal’s second serve, and Djokovic’s best-in-the-game ROS, I think the outcome (of this particular dynamic in the long run) can be expected to be on the latter’s racquet.’
And hence my response, listing out the dynamics between the two at various stages in their careers. You’re the one mentioning it in the first place; their history suggests that it’s not always on Djoko’s racket!
Djoko’s ROS was always there in the past and Rafa could still beat him; I don’t see that changing if both are playing their best and being fit and healthy going forward. It’s NOT always on Djoko’s racket!
Delpo isn’t a no.200 in the rankings and he had problems returning Rafa’s serves; I remembered how you commented about Delpo’s ‘lousy’ returns that he couldn’t even return some of Rafa’s ‘poor’ quality serves during their match here at Wimbledon. Djoko was also having the same problem with Rafa’s second serves esp, so was it just a coincidence, that they both were ‘lousy’ in their ROS and it had NOTHING to do with how Rafa served? How typical of Joe!
Cheryl is right, it’s more to do with how Rafa served his second serve, more than how Djoko returned it! Rafa’s second serves were tricky for the returner, it’s proven time and again, last year and this year, as he’s winning unusually high % of second serves.
So, Djoko was returning poorly against Rafa and better against Anderson due to the quality of their serves. Anderson could’ve served better but he’s obviously tired from his long SF and QF.
As with so many things, Rafa’s prowess as a winner of 2nd serve points is heavily skewed because of his ability on clay. His second serve (like just about any player’s second serve) is just not that good.
If Nadal could be expected to give Djokovic a lot of trouble on second serves, then he should serve them almost exclusively. Again, much more likely that Novak simply under-performed on key second serves.
As usual, whoever Rafa played against, Joe would say the outcome is on his opponent’s racket! How typical!
Who says Rafa can’t improve his serve going forward? Who knows whether Djoko could return to his previous high level? Given how poor Rafa is serving now, he has bigger room for improvement, whilst Djoko won’t improve much his ROS as he’s not doing badly now.
The dynamic between the two? It’s whoever is the more aggressive would win the match. It was 23-19 adv Rafa prior to Rafa’s slump in 2015/2016. It was once 16-7 adv Rafa prior to 2011. Djoko became v2 from 2011 onwards and won 7 in a row that caught all his opponents off guard (he also beat Fed 4 times in 2011). It was 16-14 adv Rafa after that.
From MC 2012 onwards to FO2014, it was 7-5 adv Rafa, so the rivalry during that time was about even, when Rafa was winning mostly on clay and Djoko on HCs ( Rafa 5-2 on clay; Djoko 3-2 on HCs). The dynamic changed due to Rafa having in slump and he still was able to meet Djoko seven times and losing all seven.
Djoko during his slump in 2017 till now, only played Rafa twice on clay (losing both) and now he’s getting out of his slump, met and beat Rafa narrowly on grass in conditions that favoured him. There’s still room for improvement for both, but I’ve doubt that Djoko would get back to his 2015 level, so the dynamic between the two may turn out to be like the period 2012-2014 again with Rafa > Djoko on clay; Djoko > Rafa on HCs, and should they meet on grass, it’s 50:50 judging from their 2018 encounter.
Joe, you’re the one who said ‘had he(Djoko) been at that level (2014/2015)….’. Time and again, when Rafa was playing, you would bring out something questioning Rafa’s ability or his level of play – FO2017 you brought up Stan at his FO2015 level; now you brought up Djoko at 2014/2015 level – you think they could play at those level again? Those were some two years back from when Rafa was playing his respective matches, you think those were relevant?
You make us, the Rafa fans, feel that you just do not respect Rafa’s abilities and his talent, always thinking that somebody is better than him, even on clay, and when he is/was at his majestic best! You even push it to the limit, that logic won’t work with you, when we said that Rafa’s topspin FH vs any SHBH (Stan’s included’) is the killer shot on clay. Stan himself attest to that, that Rafa’s FH to his BH made him mistimed his BH as he was made to hit it above his shoulder level so often.
If you don’t buy what we said, at least listen to Stan the man himself.
Joe Smith doesn’t even buy what he says. He’s just trying to sell it to Rafans.
#PDFTT
I like Tsitsipas who managed to reach R4 and guess who he lost to when he was there? ISNER! And Anderson needed 6+ hours to send Isner packing.
The hype was around Shapo but Shapo couldn’t deliver on grass though he made the SF at Madrid on clay. We’ll see how far these two youngsters and Sasha would progress come the HC season. Not all are lost, I do believe we’re seeing a good batch of youngsters coming up; there’s this Felix whatever, a 17 yo from Canada who will be 18 on 8th August (same birthday as Fed but 19 years younger), I watched his match vs Rublev at Swedish Open and the commentator was comparing him to a young Rafa Nadal, I hope he’s not another one being hyped up but couldn’t deliver. The boy is good, could change directions on his shots well, I feel we’re seeing more players who’re modeling their games after Djoko; and yet many of them have Fed as their idol.
*it should be Umag, not Swedish Open, where I watched Rublev vs Felix.
Hi Lucky – I certainly don’t mean to imply that there is no young talent. There is, of course. What I’m saying is that the men’s game seems to be at a place in which the top players are so much better at the Slams than anyone else, that the youngsters can’t get traction.
We can’t compare a Djoko in 2018 to a Djoko of 2014/2015; just like we can’t compare a Rafa of 2018 to a Rafa of 2008. They both couldn’t get back to those days where they’re playing their best tennis on grass.
As good as Djoko was on grass in 2014 and 2015, he still needed to fight tooth and nail during the tournament before winning it. To me, no matter how awesome Djoko was, he too needed to fight hard for his wins; I wasn’t convinced of his USO2011 performance and had found him not playing great at the USO most of the times even though he’s just that great, to reach the finals there so often. At the FO too, he needed to win some five setters in order to reach the final there.
He’s the most awesome at the AO, somehow the courts there suited him and perhaps it’s at the start of the season, whilst the USO was played in the third quarter of the season.
Cheryl nails it again!
Nick Kyrgios isn’t fighting over anything except line calls. He had the talent but not the mentality. Rafa made the connection between work and success practically before he could talk. At ten years old (according to his book) he realized that he had to put “work” ahead of fun if he wanted sports success. It’s probably not that unusual for a star athlete in the making but it’s something that has never gelled for NK who puts nothing ahead of his own pleasure.
I guess what I’m saying is that it’s not impossible for us to have another “wunderkid”. It’ll happen sooner or later.
That is true for the moment for Kyrgios. Of course, it was also true of Andre Agassi when he was a kid. A fifty pound weight-gain and the need for a wildcard at the US Open righted the ship for Agassi, so we could still see great things from Kyrgios.
I hope you’re right. There is nothing as exciting as seeing a 17 year old play and saying “Now THERE is a future champion.”
Kyrgios is no longer a “kid”. I read his latest interview. He plans to “play tennis for 6 or 7 years” and then move on. Perfectly valid life plan but hardly the mindset of a champion in the making.
I don’t know if we’ll see a future champion as young as Nadal was when he broke into the main tour. I think physical maturity is needed these days and he was very precocious there, as well as in other areas. Rafa had his “sophomore slump” due to an injury that kept him out for most of the clay season in 2004. Some of these other guys may be going through it now. Partly because once the top 100 guys get a look at a kid’s game they’ll play him better.
As for A Zverev and slams? Who knows? It isn’t the top players that are preventing him from doing well. He’s not getting that far. Nerves maybe?
Hello guy’s
Novak Djokovic was amazing in Wimbledon especially against Rafa.
Both players played really well but Novak was the better player even though he hasn’t regained his hot form.
I wish Rafa and Djokovic meet again soon their matches are always hot.
I’m looking at this Felix with interest. He’ll be 18 this coming August. According to Shapo, Felix may be better than Shapo himself and they both are close friends.
This Felix strikes the ball well, moves well too and his court craft seems great for a guy his age. He doesn’t play like Shapo, who imo is overly aggressive, almost going for broke all the time.
To me, Felix plays like Djoko, maybe he’ll be a Djoko in the making. We still have not seen a youngster like Rafa, who by 16 was already beating some top players, by 17,he had beaten the no. 1 player, and two days after his 19th birthday, won his first slam. Rafa was the last teenager to win a slam, and 13 years had past and no teenager had won a slam since Rafa in 2005.
Great analysis, and Rafa really does seem to bring that intangible drama to the big stage, no matter who is on the other side of the net.
Strange how the French has had by far the most teenage (atp) champions over the years .
May be wrong, but think Rafa was still a teenager when he won in 2006 .
Yeah you’re wrong; Rafa just turned 20 when he won his second FO title in 2006.
Nny & Rafans…https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Rafael_Nadal/58025/2003-hamburg-when-rafael-nadal-was-beating-his-coach-carlos-moya/
https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Rafael_Nadal/57980/rafael-nadal-played-on-grass-suffering-knee-pain-for-years-says-coach/
MA,
Thanks for those links! They showed Rafa beating Moya in the documentary Strokes Of Genius. That was something to see!
Right there you could sense that he was something special. Even Moya said it.
I appreciate the one about the knees. I think people forget how Rafa struggled with his knees for a few years at Wimbledon. We all saw the difference this year when he said his knees felt good.
Thanks!
😍
Hehe..You’re very much welcome Nny!…Oh!…Then you’re already see the whole match Nny?Or just the highlights?
Btw…Yeah Nny!…I still can’t believe that our Rafa reached the semis at Wimby this year!…It’s surreal!..God!…After 6 painful years not passed 4th rd!!…Ohohohoho!!….I hope Rafa also will have a successful NA HC this year Nny!…We certainly can hope..if on his least favourite surface he can reach semis..I think he can do better at USO…Let’s hope he will stay healthy Nny!…Oh!..speaking of USO…Check this out what your darling would wear Nny!!…Woohooo!!!…Bright colour again this year!!…It’s almost the same colour of last year right?Hopefully we’ll get lucky again with this colour Nny!!….Wooohoooo!!Vamos Rafa!!
https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Rafael_Nadal/58024/here-is-what-rafael-nadal-and-novak-djokovic-will-wear-at-the-us-open/
MA,
I did not see the whole match with Rafa and Moya, only highlights. But that was enough to see that Rafa had greatness in him at a young age. Moya was interviewed for that documentary, along with other people close to Rafa. He said that Rafa had this ambition and will to win and he wished he had half of that! So he knew that Rafa was special!
Thanks for the reveal of Rafa’s outfit for the USO! Beautiful!
What struck me about that 2003 match with Moya was after match point. No celebration at all, not even a fist pump. Rafa felt bad about beating Moya, yet was professional enough to do it. But he wasn’t going to celebrate.
Ramara,
Great point. Rafa did not celebrate that win. He was a class act right from the start!
Hehehe….Once again you’re welcome Boss!!…Oh!…I’ve got another article Nny!….
https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Tennis_Stories/58050/french-open-s-philippe-chatrier-unrecognizable-work-on-the-roof-has-begun/
Urgh!!….Another roof!!…More scandal to add!!….
Mira, it’s not a roof but rather more like an umbrella; it’s not totally covered when the roof is closed. There’s a 2 meter opening between the roof and the top edge of the stand all round the arena, meaning there’s wind into the arena but not the rain.
It’s like the National stadium here in my country. The roof allows natural air to come in from the side when it’s closed. As for the comfort of the spectators, we have individual air ducts below each seat so that cool air is blown out to cool the spectators. It’s energy saving that way, as the whole stadium need not be fully air conditioned. I don’t know whether RG is considerate enough to do that for the spectators’ comfort.
Oh really Lucky?U think Rafa would still like this new look at PC?I mean,with the air still can come in freely…it will not be like Wimby & will not affect Rafa’s game that much right?
Oh!…U said more like your national stadium…Where Lucky?…And thank u very much for all the info Lucky!…I really appreciate it!!
Singapore. I’m from Singapore. Its hot and humid here, so the Nat Stadium provides some cooling comfort when the roof is closed because of rain. I dont know whether they turn on the cooling ducts when the temperature reaches say 34 or 35 degrees celcius when its not raining. It rarely goes up to 35 degrees I must say; its usually 31-32 degrees during the day but its unbearable because of high humidity.
I like that RG wants to be different from Wimbledon or the USO. I think the umbrella concept is better than having the roof closed to become indoor environment and with humidity trapped within. Wimbledon made it worse with glass roof as it could not block out heat and so humidity may not go away during the day when there’s sunshine.
Lucky!…You’re from Singapore?Oh my God!…Then we’re neighbours!!…I’m from Malaysia Lucky!…Hehehe…What a small world!!…
Hey…I just googled your new National Stadium…Whooo!…It’s really big & awesome Lucky!…U must be proud to have this new & modern stadium…
Oh yeah Lucky!…Have u ever seen Rafa play when he came here once upon a time?Or in Thailand?
Hi Mira, nope I didn’t see Rafa at KL, but I went to Madrid in 2010 and saw him there. He was awesome!
Lucky!U went to Madrid??Oh wow!!…And i bet he was awesome!…He always awesome right?Hey..u don’t wanna go see him play at Beijing or Shanghai later Lucky?It’s not too far away from us right?
Hi Mira, I’m thinking of going to Shanghai but not sure about my own schedule. Have you been to Shanghai Masters? I’d been there in 2008 when it’s the TMC (YEC); too bad Rafa wasn’t there but I managed to see Djoko, Davy, Murray, Simon; just missed out Fed live, arrived Shanghai late so only could watch on tv. Was shocked that Simon beat Fed there.
Oh!..U wanna go to Shanghai Lucky??Oh that’s great!!..U could give us live analysis!!…Oh God!It must be amazing to see Rafa play Novak there..Tho,i guess it’s a tough task for our Rafa considering Novak always is in beast mode there…
Oh!…I’ve never been to any tennis tourney Lucky…Watching tennis Live for me is like having a fantasy going to the moon!Hahaha…I can’t afford such luxury Lucky!…But,i will be very happy if u be able to go to Shanghai & give us all a Live report…
It’s ok Mira. I’m hoping that one day Rafa and Fed will come to Singapore and Malaysia for exhibition matches so that we can watch them without having to travel overseas.
Fed expressed interest in doing exhibition matches with Rafa after they both retired. I hope Rafa is also interested too; so that they can travel round the world to meet their fans.
MA,
That does not look good! What a mess!
Haaa!!…That’s a reallyyyyyy good idea Lucky!!….
Nny!…Hehe…Yeah!!….Can’t believe Rafa just hoisted his 11th there!….
I don’t see an insult in Joe’s posts,it’s a valid opinion.Just as we read LS comparing players and saying who would have won.
For what it’s worth I don’t think anyone would have beaten Wawrinka at RG 2015 ,or Murray Wimby 2013,and to a lesser extent,Cilic US 2014,or Nadal RG 2008 .
Why to a lesser extent Cilic at USO2014, when he beat Fed quite handily??
Well, Big Al, Joe is always belittling Rafa, bigging up his opponents almost always! To me Rafa 2017 at RG >>> Stan at RG 2015; you’re right though that at RG2015 no one could play better than Stan to beat him that year, but I can’t say the same in 2017!
I don’t see Stan at FO2015 was any better than say Cilic winning at USO2014, when both had to fight hard to reach the final; likewise for Murray at Wimbledon 2013. So, while they might be awesome in the finals, they would very unlikely be able to repeat that often.
To me Rafa at FO2008/2017, USO2010; Djoko at AO2008/2011 and FO2016, and Fed at AO2007/USO2006 and Wim 2017 were truly impressive, as they played with such authority, from start to finish throughout the tournament.
Not much of a lesser extent about Cilic, but Nishikori was disappointing in that final.
I don’t think you can compare or extrapolate players performances from eg RG 2015 to 2017, because things change all the time.
It’s Joe who’s the one saying that during RG2017!
And it’s typical of Joe, each time when Rafa was playing. He also said that had Djoko played at his 2014/2015 level at Wimbledon, the SF between them in 2018 Wimbledon won’t be that close with Djoko winning it. Typical from Joe! Big Al don’t you realise that?
The standard keeps going up,and someone recently said things change every eighteen months.However,it’s pretty obvious Djoko of 2014-5 was better than this Djoko.
I still think Stan of 2015 would have beaten anyone who played up to that point,it’s only speculation if he would have been so effective against Nadal 2017 ,but there’s nothing wrong with discussing it.
But then Lucky,you do the same thing eg Sampras v Federer
Wasn’t Djoko disappointing too in that Wim 2013 final, after his 4+hours match vs Delpo in the SF?
I must add too that at RG2015, Djoko also had a five setter vs Murray in the SF. Who knows whether that played a part in the final, though Djoko was very determined at the FO as usual, since he really wanted to win a FO.
Big Al, it all started with Joe here, comparing Djoko of 2018 to Djoko of 2014/2015. How come you didn’t object to that, now you even bring up Sampras?
I see you’re like Joe, just another one who wants to side with him, where his biased view about Rafa is concerned.
I don’t have to agree with everything Joe says,isn’t this the proof? But do agree with him on Djoko.A few weeks ago he was just awful,,takes longer to than that to get back to his best of 2014-5.
You’re the one who said we can’t extrapolate players performances from one year to another, now when Joe does that it’s ok with you??
You’re agreeable with Joe on what? Djoko’s 2014/2015 level? Aren’t you extrapolating players performances here?
Come on, Lucky. Even you said that Djokovic is not back to his very best level. Maybe he’s at 90% or so. Serve, ROS, and (esp) FH is not as good.
His very best was in his prime, late 20’s. That’s why I don’t think he’ll get back to it, or if he does it will be very brief.
Thanks, Al. I appreciate it.
First time commenter! I just wanted to nitpick a little bit: “Of the eight quarterfinalists, only Milos Raonic and Kei Nishikori were in their twenties, and they’re hardly fresh faces at ages 27 and 28…” Del Potro is 29 and he was a quarterfinalist.
Ah. Right you are, Ginger. For some reason, I though he’d just turned 30. Thanks for the correction. His birthday is actually in September.
This link is dedicated especially to RC….
https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/videos/Novak_Djokovic/58065/sevenyearold-novak-djokovic-i-want-to-be-world-no-1-/
Nny!…https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/videos/Rafael_Nadal/58060/why-should-rafael-nadal-win-the-sportsmanship-award-must-watch/
MA,
Thanks for the link! I agree about Rafa winning the sportsmanship award! Enough with Fed already!
Hehehe…You’re very much welcome Nny!…Speaking of Sportsmanship Award…I’m screeching my head on that…How come Fed always won?I mean no other players have the criteria that Fed has?From 142 players,none can match his?
#Don’tunderstand!
Joe Smith JULY 22, 2018 AT 3:43 AM, this is where you showed your true colours. Still waiting for an explanation for which you have none. Here is an explanation of your reference to nail clippers in last tango in paris at the bottom of the page when you were referring to me:
https://tinyurl.com/ychllhfc
Big Al MARCH 6, 2018 AT 11:12 PM
There you go.
Tango Lad, interesting anagram .Last Tango in Paris springs to mind 😉
Joe Smith MARCH 6, 2018 AT 11:32 PM
Start to worry if he asks you to pull out your nail clipper…
Hawkeye MARCH 6, 2018 AT 11:57 PM
Showing your true colours. Homophobe Joe Smith.
Tango lad (obviously ) attempt at anagram
LTIP :not so much reference to the movie,but to Nadals RG dynasty coming to an end ,some day
Understood Al. I was referring to Joe Smith’s comment which was h0m0phobic to say the least.
hopefully djoker continues to own nadull like he did before his elbow injury. that was an epic ownage of galactic proportions! nothing better when djoker ruffles up nadull’s wig, a beautiful scene to look at lol. and i don’t think nadull can find solutions to counter the djoker’s game, after all he is not the brightest bulb on the tennis tour, especially now that the dark force of the ‘tennis coaching’ tio toni retired (did he?) nadull can only accept his second fiddle faith.
grassgoat says AT 3:35 PM: “the dark force of the ‘tennis coaching’ tio toni”
===
Rafa bashers have always constructed imaginary stories about Rafa and his family members. Nothing new.
People often do this. More than half of the world population live in delusion.
check the meds grassgoat (even if you’re a sampras fan).
And get some fresh air.
for fangirls who live in a delusion that the open roof would’ve changed anything read this please:
https://engineeringsport.co.uk/2011/06/27/the-problem-of-the-wimbledon-roof/
there is a common misconception about the ‘indoor’ wimbledon. just an excuse for sore losers. i am surprised that the author of this article (a tennis expert i would assume) doesn’t know basic facts, + djoker won their last open roof match played in 2011. i am really not sure on what ground was given that wafa would’ve won had the match been played under the open roof??
Hmm correct me if im wrong but didnt Nadal win two GS last year and another this year, when Novak was in his slump, as for Wimbledon and the roof, had it been hammering it down i couldve understood the roof, but it was a beautiful day, and they actually had the roof open for the ladies final, not a fan girl, and Novak did deserve to win, but Wimbledon is supposed to be an outdoor tournament ….
‘Taking nothing ( read everything )away from Djokovic win,maybe Nadal would have won if roof hadn’t been on…’
When will this end?
Alison,I see you say Djoko deserved to win,my comment is directed more at some other people.
The scheduling is the real problem.
I can’t get on TDC to make picks! Something wrong with the site? Are you having any trouble Big Al?
Same trouble, but OK now. Just got mine in.
Was secretly looking forward to a wee break from the brackets but it was not to be…as usual I spent far longer on the ATP ones.
No problem Big Al, i dont have a problem with people voicing an opinion, but i get irritated with the assumption that been a Nadal fan means you have no brains or intelligence, hence the fan girl comment, when all people are doing is voicing an opinion ….
Alison,
Preach it! I said the same thing to that troll grassgoat after he came here to trash Rafa fans when he lost to Novak. Why the hell are Rafa fans being blamed now by Big Al for keeping it up? Tell that troll to get lost and stop making sexist, misogynistic comments about Rafa fans!
We are NOT fan girls! Nobody here was discussing the roof until the low life troll started posting his poison again! Get a life!
So Big Al, if you are sick of the roof being brought up then tell the troll to get lost!
Thanks NNY it seems with some people if there isnt an argument there lets create one ….
Theres also a misconception that the only time Rafa can beat Novak is when Novak aint at his best, and the harping back to 2011, tennis is more of a what have you done for me lately sport, its not like Rafa hasnt beaten Novak since, like 3 times in 2012, 3 times in 2013, he beat him last year, and the year before ….
Alison,
Well said! Love it! I am also tired of this nonsense that Rafa can only beat Novak when he’s not at his best! Baloney!
I also agree with you that if there isn’t an argument, then let’s start one. We have all moved on from Wimbledon and the mess with the roof. It madd no sense to have the roof up when the match resumed the next day. It was not logical in any way, shape or form. Regardless of how the match might have ended, it just made no sense to have the roof up, since it was not raining and not dark. End of story.
By the way, it’s great to see you here again! 😀
Also nice to see rc here!
😀
NY, has the roof ever been opened during a match once its been closed? I cant remember. But you’re right, we’ve moved on from this discussion until it was brought up again .
Wimbledon needs to sort their procedure out , otherwise the roof will always be a issue in close matches.
Waves to RC up there 😉
Thanks NNY good to see you all here too especially RC 🙂