It will be a showdown between Saddlebrook (Tampa, Fla.) training mates and occasional doubles partners when Alexander Zverev and John Isner battle for a place in the final of the Internazionali BNL d’Italia on Saturday afternoon.
Zverev leads the head-to-head series 2-0, having prevailed 6-4, 6-2 last fall in Shanghai and 6-7(5), 7-6(5), 7-6(5) at the Miami Masters. In the latter contest, the fast-rising German saved three match points before surviving a two-hour and 38-minute thriller.
Isner had to get through another deciding tiebreaker in order to give himself one more shot at Zverev. Following victories this week over Albert Ramos-Vinolas, Florian Mayer, and Stan Wawrinka, the 6’10” American outlasted Marin Cilic 7-6(3), 2-6, 7-6(2) on Friday. This run has come mostly out of nowhere for Isner, who had been a modest 9-8 in 2017 prior to Rome and had not played since mid-April in Houston (lost to Ernesto Escobedo in the third round).
“It doesn’t matter what the surface; I feel I can play well on all surfaces,” Isner said. “Nothing changes for me. Whether I’m playing on grass, hard, or clay, it’s the same recipe. I’m going to serve and hold my serve a lot. I can hold my serve in mud out there, really. So I like my serve no matter the surface. It just so happens to be that this week I’m sort of putting it together. Clay can be a great surface for me.”
It has been Zverev’s best surface this season. The 20-year-old is a stellar 24-9 overall and an especially outstanding 13-3 on clay, with a title in Munich and a quarterfinal showing in Madrid in addition to this Rome performance. Zverev punched his ticket to the last four by beating Kevin Anderson, Viktor Troicki, Fabio Fognini, and Milos Raonic, surrendering just a single set to Anderson in the process.
“Against Sascha, it’s an extremely tough match,” Isner assured. “I actually know him very well, since he was very young. I train with him a bunch and I played him two times–and I’m 0-2. I would certainly love to get some revenge on him. But he’s playing remarkably well. It was only a matter of time, in my opinion, before he started having results like this.”
“I’m happy to be in the semis and playing John, who I know very well from our Saddlebrook days,” Zverev added. “We practice quite a lot together in the offseason and do quite a lot of stuff together. It’s going to be a great match. I’m excited for both of us.”
The world No. 17 should be excited, because–now that Rafael Nadal is out–he has been arguably been the best player in the field during this tournament along with Dominic Thiem. He also warmed up perfectly for this matchup by facing Raonic, whom he broke an impressive four times. Isner will be tougher, but Zverev should be able to get enough returns in play to pick up a third win in their head-to-head history.
Pick: Zverev in 3
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I had a feeling Sascha could beat Raonic. He’s not tired!
I am going with Sascha for the win in 3 sets,
Isner has been the underdog all week and I’ve picked him anyway. Staying with Isner in 3.
Isner in three
Isner has a much bigger serve, and when it’s on he’s almost impossible to beat, regardless of surface. He seems to be on a streak this week, and I think he takes this one even though I’d love to see Zverev makes his first masters final. Isner in 3.
regardless of the surface?
Year, regardless of surface??
Ok, so maybe not much evidence to back that claim up on clay (Isner has won a minor clay tournament or two I believe). But that may change here.
I like the Big Dawg…in 3.
Zverev in three. Ending on a third set tiebreak.
Zverev in three; I think if Cilic could break Isner’s serve, Zverev could too.
Big-John in 3
I thought it may be a Djoko vs Zverev/Isner final; but with a delay in the Djoko/Delpo QF, I think Thiem may have a chance to beat whoever comes out of that QF. I thought it may be a Isner/Delpo or Isner/Djoko final, but now it may be a battle of the youngsters in the final.
I give up picking for Rome.
Hey rc!…I read that they will do the FO draw tomorrow..Is it true?RZ said she will post a Bracket challenge tomorrow…So,we can pick the Bracket?
Mira Andi (AT 2:00 PM)
They will do men’s QUALIFYING draw on Sunday.
Augusta…Oh really?not the main draw yet?And when they will do a main draw augusta?
The main draws will be made on May 26th.
Oh!Thank u so much augusta!
Hey MA
I just filled out me brackets for Lyon, Geneva, Nurnberg and Strasbourg 🙂
Thanks for the heads up about RZ’s bracket
H’mmm. Zverev is up a set as I write. So Zverev in 3 if it does not go to a 3rd set TB. If it does, then Isner in 3.
Forgot to add, Djokovic will win the final against either.
Yay Sascha! That was a great hold coming back from 0-40.
Two more games and he’s in the final.
His First Masters 1000 Final. Come on, Sascha! He’s going to serve for it…eek
I really have underestimated his endurance.
Yay!!!
Djoko is back.
Well, Novak looked good v Delpo. That match looked easy for him.
We’ll see.
I knew that Zverev could go it! So happy for him Im his first Masters final!
Well done Sascha!
I called it first!
I called it first refers to Djokovic is back.
Djoko must have played great. I still wouldn’t say he is ‘back’.
Delpo thinks Rafa is the favourite for RG. It is good that Rafa is not facing djoko in Rome.
I’m with you, VR. It’s a bit soon to say Novak is back. I need to see more. Delpo was tired…and still missing a backhand weapon.
VR, from what I’ve seen of Djoko in the QF, it’s more Delpo being poor than Djoko being good. Djoko wasn’t doing anything special, he just kept the rally in play until Delpo missed.
Delpo couldn’t even force Djoko out of position and so Djoko was very comfortable keeping the ball in play. TBH it’s a boring match, no spark at all.
If Thiem is able to play like his QF here, he stands a good chance of beating Djoko to reach the final. The question is, has Thiem spent all his energy yesterday beating Rafa and has nothing left in his tank? I hope not.
I want either of Zverev or Dominic to win here. Go #NextGen 🙂
Nny,
I’d love if Sascha could win tomorrow! !!! But Novak or Thiem is going to be a tough one.
First, I do not think Novak is back. Way too soon for that. But this is a good showing by him in the last tournament before RG. He has a good chance to win.
I would love to see Thiem or Sascha win here. They have done well for themselves. If Murray continues to struggle at RG that could open up that part of the draw. Stan has also been M.I.A. and that has given the young guys an opportunity. It remains to be seen if Stan can play himself into good form in RG.
Stan is playing in Geneva. Maybe he’ll get himself tuned up (sort of) while there. But I think he’ll lose to Isner again! 😀
I’m doubting Thiem will beat Novak. Beating Rafa probably knocked the stuffing out of him mentally and he’s got to be physically spent as well. Novak is just getting going.
But it would be HUGE for Dominic to get a win over both Rafa AND his first win over Novak (I think it is)
I agree that it’s a tall order to beat Rafa and Novak back-to-back. That would be quite a feat. Some have said that Thiem will get tired, but I haven’t seen that yet. He seems to be even more energized with all of his wins.
This is a chance for Novak to get a good result in the last tournament before RG. I don’t think one can say that a player is back when he has yet to win a title on clay. This is his opportunity.
I guess StZn feels that he needs to play in another tournament right before RG. He must feel that he needs the match play.
Whatever happens, it’s all good for Sascha. He has done well to get to his first Masters 1000 tournament. It may be a bridge too far to win, but this is a great result for him.
It’s going to be quite a feat if Sascha or Dominic win Rome – and that’s my hope. If Novak wins – good news for him with a confidence boost and perhaps motivation.
But I really hope one of the new kids win their fist Masters!!!
Djoko is back.
I have been saying the same but rc is still sceptical. I think that match with Rafa at Madrid has brought back the old fire.
When he lifts the Rome trophy tomorrow…i’ll admit he’s extremely dangerous. But the two he has left to beat here are not hardened warrior’s in these situations.
Come on, Thiem, figure this out!
Oh, congrats to me on picking Zverev to beat Isner in 3 sets!
?
I got djokovic winning first round then gets tired and lose to theim in three.
There’s fire in his eyes. ..I’m not ready to say he is back but he’s not going to lose to Thiem.
He’s into it, Novak is.
Yes, Novak has come out ready to take fien Thiem. He does have that look in his eyes. He’s not letting Thiem into this match. I also think we can see one more time what it takes out of a player to beat Rafa. Thiem had to play his best to take out Rafa. It looks like he’s out of gas.
Novak needs to win a title before I will say that he’s back.
TBH I find Thiem quite one dimensional – big serve, big FH, quite good SHBH and good speed around the court. He’s a big hitter but doesn’t have much varieties, just hard hitting.
He’s not going to beat Djoko by rallying with him, unless he can play like Stan. I think this SF will end within an hour. He has no idea how to play Djoko, his coach doesn’t help him much, too busy dealing with Rafa but forget there’s a Djoko lurking around waiting to beat him.
Yep, Team Thiem has been laser fo used on how to beat Rafa on clay.
Thiem has lost to Novak I think 4 times…never a win. Now he has to
Learn to play Novak. If this was a different venue and no the Rome SF, maybe Novak wouldn’t be as psyched.
But there’s no way he’s losing to Thiem. I’ll be happy if team can make it competitive at some point.
I feel sorry for Thiem’s mum.
luckystar says AT 6:26 PM: “…his coach doesn’t help him much, too busy dealing with Rafa…”
‘
Only beating Rafa gives a player a meal ticket for life. LOL
I actually agree about Thiem. I take nothing away from him, but there is this one-dimensional aspect to his game. He hits hard, harder, hardest. It was enough to get past s tired Rafa, but won’t be good enough to beat a Novak who is dialed in and playing smart, precise tennis using all of his considerable variety.
I think that’s why I haven’t warmed up to Thiem. I respect his talent and ambition and persevering to be better, but ball bashing is not enough if you want to be at the top in this sport.
I also agree that this could be over quickly.
Its good that Rafa lost y’day, maintains the mental edge over Djoker for RG.
Looks like Zverev is in better shape right now than Thiem to give Djoko more of a challenge in the final.
We see how hard it is to make B2B Masters finals, not to mention winning them. Zverev will be no.11 in the rankings now and if he wins the final, he will reach top 10, at no.10 – not bad for a 20 yo. He is doing better than Kygrios so far this year.
SOS peak Stan Wawrinka.
Lol, Stan looks so far away from his peak! He has only a week to transform himself and I can’t imagine him making himself a contender at this point!
it’s possible 😀 maybe
Stanimal only emerges in Slams regardless of pre-Slam form.
Lol, Djokovic and his loud loud come ons against someone he is pummeling. And then he wonders why the crowd doesn’t cheer for him.
This a tough experience for Thiem.
Are they taking bets on Djokovic to rip his shirt ala Hulk Hogan after this win? I know he wants to.
There’s not question that Novak is playing much better right now than he has all year. However, Thiem is merely a shadow of the player he was yesterday against Rafa… It doesn’t even look physical to me- it looks like he just do any have the competitive desire to win today… It’s disappointing to me.
*doesn’t have any
He ran out of steam.
It should not come as a surprise to se Thiem so flat in this match. That is what beating Rafa on clay does to a player. Thiem has nothing left. He put it all out there on the court yesterday. Look at what it took for him to beat a tired Rafa who was not at his best,
Novak is playing very well, but Thiem has nothing left.
Looks like it might be a bagel.
The first SF was way more interesting than this one. Even though Isner is known for his big serve, at least he ventures to the net to hit some nice volleys and he has also improved his ground strokes. Isner/Zverev played with more varieties and the match was more competitive than this one.
Why is Djoko getting the same type of players the whole tournament, i.e. players who engage in rallies all the time with Djoko. Bendene, Agut, Delpo and now Thiem, all were trying to outrally Djoko and nothing else! They probably were thinking it’s a subpar Djoko that they were facing!
I hope Zverev doesn’t fall into the same trap; at least moves forward and hits some nice volleys or does some S&V.
I agree with you, Lucky- Zverev should be better suited to take on Nole. He has more tools than the other guys Nole has faced thus far, to go along with his baseline power. It’s just a question of will he make use of those tactics and not just try to out rally Novak the whole match… We shall see! Unless Thiem manages to wake up and make a miraculous turn around (doubtful).
Can’t imagine, Rome final is Djoko’s second final this season, after playing in seven events so far.
Mercifully it’s over.
I call it right, the match is done and dusted within an hour.
Feeling sad for Thiem. That was harsh. Life is cruel.
So the trophy belongs to the djoker……very sad to know that. Hoe pitty:(
I think Novak don’t want Rafa to surpass him in their tied 30/30 ATP Masters 1000,that’s spurned Novak to produced such amazing perfomance today….So,Thank u Rafa!hehehe…
Djoko is back.
#BreadsicksAndBagels
#SomeTakeLongerToSee
Thiem faded away exactly as I foresaw or more precisely he disappeared in the semis after beating Rafa! Honestly, I don’t feel sorry for him with such lousy performance and lack of just about anything needed to make the match competitive! I said he would hand it on the plate to Nole and I was so right. This couldn’t have gone better for Novak. And it was just in time for him to gain confidence needed for RG.
Tomorrow Novak will have another easy one with Zverev: firstly, because Zverev does not have the weapons to beat No 2 who again is back to being himself and secondly because Nole will just be so determined and so pumped up in the finals…
WHAT THE HECK HE LOST A GAME
Lol!
Everyone including me has been wrong about lots of tennis bs lately. Everything is haywire.
Didn’t see the match, only highlights, but looks like Novak played lights out and Thiem had nothing left after beating Rafa. Nole said it was by far the best he’s played all year and maybe more, which is concerning for everyone else.
I said in Madrid that I didn’t think it would take much for Novak to regain form. He’s no longer injured, just been in the doldrums. And Becker did say about him that he thought maybe Novak needs Fed and Nadal to get motivated, so when they were both out of action after he won RG last year, he lost some motivation. Now that they’re both back, so is Nole. I don’t see him losing to Zverev in the final.
Yeah great run for Zverev but Nole will win
Not yet. Thiem made Djoko looked good. Thiem was hitting to Djoko’s strike zone, Djoko hardly needed to do much, just retrieving and made Thiem hit another ball. It’s clear that Thiem looked frustrated and resigned, when the ball kept coming back at him.
Thiem was at least half a step slow if not more, compared to the day before. He hardly moved his legs, just stayed at his BH corner and hit his CCBH all day, hardly moving his feet to change direction of the ball. He rarely hit a FH! One could say that it’s Djoko not giving Thiem the time to do so, but clearly in my eyes, it’s Thiem not willing to move his legs to get into position to do so!
I hope Zverev makes it more competitive, at least tries moving Djoko around and not let him settle into a rhythm that Djoko so loves.
“Clearly in my eyes” being the operative term.
I guessed as much, Thiem was running on empty, he said it himself. Having being to business ends of things week after week had taken its toll on him. Moreover, Djoko didn’t give him any breathing space, with all the relentless hitting and retrieving. Thiem was made to hit one more ball and another one more ball all the time until he relented.
I hope Zverev isn’t running on an empty tank and has enough to match Djoko shot for shot. If not, it will be another anticlimatic show after a competitive SF.
Lucky….i’m kinda worried when i watch Novak perfomance on his 2 latest match against DelPo and Thiem….What do u think of Rafa’s chances at RG if this Nole ‘appeared’ in Paris?
Mira, Delpo was rusty, its very obvious to me and he’s very unfit. Thiem was running on fumes. Of course that’s not to say Djoko wasn’t playing well; it’s just that he’s at say 80% or so of his best level. Djoko did what hes best at doing, i.e. retrieving and retrieving, until Delpo and Thiem had no where else to go!
I’m sure both Delpo and Thiem, when they’re well rested and playing at full capacity would make a match of this Djoko. However, if Djoko is to find his best level on clay, then I feel it’s only Rafa, and a Stan of his 2015 level could match and beat him. Remember, Rafa was beating Djoko at the FO every time they met prior to 2015. Rafa at his 2016 level on clay could make a match with Djoko then imo, Rafa is playing at a better level this year, so he will have a better chance of beating Djoko this year.
Let’s see how Zverev plays against Djoko first; he has to play with more varieties, unlike Thiem who’s too one dimensional throughout his SF match.
Yeah Lucky…Agree with your analysis…Also i can’t help but think the sudden arises of Novak maybe related to Rafa’s success??..I mean,is it possible that novak looked at their tied ATP Masters at 30 each and suddenly he feel threatened that Rafa could surpass him anytime?And last year Boris claimed that Novak needs Rafa and Roger on tour??
Mira, I don’t think so. In the grand scheme of things, it’s the slams that matter, not the Masters. It’s only their fans who keep records of everything about their achievements.
Djoko may be making use of Rafa’s loss here to build up his own confidence; also gaining points in the race helps his ranking for seeding purposes going forward. He already lost 640 points at Madrid from his 52 weeks ranking, he certainly doesn’t mind gaining them back at Rome. Also, winning the title here may send a message to Rafa, that Djoko is back to his winning ways and so more pressure on Rafa come the FO.
They’re all competitive by nature; I mean, they served to motivate each other when any of them wins big. I’m sure Fed’s win at the AO would also motivate Rafa to play well to win the FO.
Lucky…Once again,agree with your view…but..urgh!if novak won today,not only he will lead the ATP Masters back[i just felt relief last week because Rafa manage to level his number] but also will change the landscape at RG completely…before this week,there is no doubt in my mind that Rafa is the clear favourite but now with the sudden resurgence from Novak…somehow things is not black and white anymore…
Even though i welcomed Novak with an open arms,for this time i hope he will feel very generous towards Rafa and his La Decima!…Sorry rc!!hehe…
Mira, why do you worry so much? You won’t change a thing by worrying! It’s up to Rafa to go fight for the FO title, and Im sure Rafa will fight for it.
It’s not just Djoko, there are others too, who knows how Stan will play this FO? Stan is good at BO5, he’s able to grind his way through the draw until he reaches good enough form to be a threat, like at USO last year. Thiem, Zverev, Goffin are in good forms too. We’ll wait and see how things go.
Nole and Rafa are both equal favorites for Roland Garros. Theim being a distant second.
No they are not equal favorites. Novak hasn’t even won a title yet in clay. This is only his second final this year.
It seems as though the same ones who were absurdly talking up Fed for RG, are now talking up Novak.
That’s all it is. Talk. Rafa has the results this clay season.
Why Thiem running on empty having handled Rafa easily surrendering just a few games yet no mention of Nole playing Delpo earlier?
80% yet supposedly Delpo and Thiem both playing poorly not able to push him? Then how can you tell it’s not 60% or 90%?
Shhh….confirmatory bias at work methinks.
Nole is going to beat Sascha on two and then it will be all about Sascha’s nerves and pressure of playing in his first final.
Now THAT is predictable of the thought process on consistent display.
From a guy who was either fired or left Nole because he lost passion/commitment and knows more about tennis than anyone here….
RT @TheBorisBecker: Watching the semis in #ATPRome @SkySportsTennis
RT @TheBorisBecker: First time in a while I can see fire in Novaks face again …#ATPRome
RT @TheBorisBecker: Best set of #17 for @DjokerNole …@SkySportsTennis #romemasters
RT @TheBorisBecker: Nole is on fire …again #ATPRome
RT @TheBorisBecker: Best match of the year for @DjokerNole #romemasters
#NoleIsBack
Mr. Steve says:
Unfortunately for Zverev, the perfect time to face Djokovic may have just passed.
After his hard-edged win over Roberto Bautista-Agut on Thursday, I wondered if Djokovic was finally ready to turn his game around. In that match, rather than let his frustration get the better of him, he used it as fuel. That’s what he has always done when he’s hungry and on the hunt, and that’s what he stopped doing after he won the French Open last year. Over the last two days, Djokovic was back on the hunt in his straight-set victories over Juan Martin del Potro and Dominic Thiem.
With his win over Rafael Nadal in the quarterfinals, Thiem’s name had risen to the top of the ladder of French Open contenders. Djokovic knocked it back down a rung or two with his 6-1, 6-0 blitz job of the Austrian on Saturday. Again, Djokovic was fired up and focused from the start, and as he did last year in the semis in Paris, he was able to rob Thiem of the time he needs to hit his powerful but elaborate ground strokes. Thiem admitted afterward that he doesn’t like facing Djokovic, while Djokovic said he played some of his best tennis of the past 12 months
I add to my post AT 12:44 PM….
#DjokosBack
I add to my post AT 12:46 PM….
Tiggy got it on Thursday around the same time I did….
“Last year, I thought his dip in play after the French Open was due in large part to the fact that he had no more goals to reach. He had finally won at Roland Garros, he held all four major titles and he had vanquished all of his rivals. At that moment, his ascent was complete. Now, nine months later, Djokovic has dipped just enough to make another ascent possible. He has lost his No. 1 ranking, and this past week he had his seven-match winning streak against Nadal snapped. He can feel hungry again, and he can feel like the hunter again.”
#DjokosBack
Barring an upset, Nole is the only one to realistically stop Federer at Wimbledon this year.
You never know. Won’t be surprised if Fed runs into an on-fire Kyrgios and loses. I agree he’s going to be the favourite but there are players who have a realistic chance of beating him.
But just so we’re clear…
RT @RobKoenigTennis: Top 10 wins on clay going into RG from 07, Rafa:5-1, 7-0, 8-1, 1-0, 6-2, 6-0, 6-1, 2-2, 1-4, 3-2 and this year 4-1 (Thiem x2, Djoko, Goffin)
#RafasBackToo
#Phenomenadal
Whats your take on todays final?.. I think zverev will be very much competitive than thiem as he is well determined for this final. I expect a tight first set which more over determines the match. It wont be easy for nole like yesterday but eventually will come out as winner.
Nole in two is my pick for this final but I’m rooting for Zverev
Talking up Novak after the match against Thiem is absurd. Talking him up before he’s even won a title on clay is even more absurd
By the way, Zverev broke Novak in the first game and then held.
Zverev up 2-0 in the early going.
Oh and I am definitely rooting for Sascha in this match. Let’s see what the kid can do here.
Me too Nny!!
MA,
Yes this is exciting to see a young gen guy in his first Masters final. Already he has done better than Thiem.
No matter what happens, Zverev has shown that he is the real deal and I think he has a bright future in this sport.
The NextGen is certainly coming alive now. Kyrgios, Thiem, Zverev.
#ImWithBenny
Joker broken in the opening game, Zev has consolidated the break.
Huge serving(both first and second) and huge groundstrokes (particularly the backhand). He has also made some advances to the net, which he should do more often.
Damn I am on a study leave and have a mock exam tomorrow. Tennis won’t just let me concentrate :/
Wow unexpected drop shot and it’s a winner! Zverev’s got the strategy right. Trying not to give Nole too much rhythm.
So Djoker not looking so unplayable now isn’t he? Told you guys not to jump to conclusions that quickly.
VR, Zverev plays like a young Delpo but he’s a lot quicker. He hits with such easy power it’s so difficult to counter it when it’s on. It’s unlike Thiem’s, which is powerful and heavy with topspin but looks laborious.
I do feel the windy conditions is affecting Djoko more than it affects Zverev here. I still think Djoko is experienced enough to find a way to beat Zverev, unless Zverev has no let downs in his level, which I think is not likely.
you are right about the wind Luckystar. Yeah Zverev has easy power and it is tougher to rush him as compared to Thiem. DJokovic very easily rushes Thiem into errors and the Austrian’s strategy is always poor aswell: playing at an even greater pace which plays right into Novak’s hand.
Zverev is quicker than Delpo and has a better serve. His second serve is really impressive. Will get to know more about the strengths and weaknesses of these guys now that they are consistently facing the big 4. I have my scrutiny glasses on from now for these days 😉
I feel once Joker starts to read Sasha’s game, which can be too predictable, he will get the upper hand. On the other hand Joker may get rattled and start making sloppy errors. Impossible to predict the outcome right now..
ah I have company. Hi there Ed!
Yeah it’s going to get tougher and tougher for AZ
Come on Zverev stay focused man
Fed-like serving from the youngster
I am so proud of Zverev for coming out and playing well here!
I also said that we should not jump to conclusions about Novak based on one match.
I am thinking that Novak may get the better of him on this day with his experience, but no matter what Zverev has shown that he is the real deal!
So no straight sets win for Djoko!
Wow! Zverev wins the first set! Way to go! Well done!
Pity he couldn’t take that opportunity to break Joker when he ha the opportunity.
Boy he has just served out the first set. Wonder how he will now react and if Joker can regroup.
Now the question is whether Zverev can stay focused and continue to play well. He’s already defied many predictions by winning a set!
This is what i expected on the opening set of the match!!.. No straight for nole.
No sign of nerves from Sascha. Serving has been brilliant this far.
Really like how Zverev is mixing it up with his forehand. He throws in some deep loopers up the line, tries to work some angles CC and he obviously has the flat, penetrative drives.
This kid makes it look easy as he hits those big groundstrokes. I have had my eye on this kid gor a while now.
Can he stay composed and keep it up!
Djokovic is not dynamic enough at the moment. He needs to get fired up
Wow! Zverev breaks!
Zverev breaks a lackluster Novak Djokovic!
Novak doesn’t seem to be feeling it. He’s doesn’t have that fire in his eyes today. He just seems flat.
It seems no comeback for nole..Its almost over..Future star in making!!…
We have the answer. Zev ets the first break!!!
I remember something Paul Annacone said last night at the end of the match. While the other tennis channel commies were falling all over themselves with hyperbole about Novak being back, he said – for this match!
Annacone was the only one to put in a caveat. Smart!
he is a great analyst NNY.
NOT giving Novak any rhythm
Zverev is hitting with so much easy power from both wings; he can also change direction of his shots at will! It’s tough when you’re at the receiving end of those shots.
He’s up a set and a break now, it’s now on his racket, whether he can hold serve to the finish line to win this final and the title
Well…
Where are his killer instincts today?
Go Sascha!
Yes, go Sascha! He’s kept his poise and composure and has played stellar tennis.
So proud of him!
I hope Sascha doesn’t get distracted over that call.
Novak missing easy shots now. No rhythm.
Novak needed that hold to stay within a break.
Will Sascha keep it together to get the win?
Just a heads up for U.S. tennis fans. The tennis channel will be replaying the 2011 RG final with Rafa and Fed tonight st 7:00 pm.
Zverev will be a real threat at Wimbly if he can maintain the intensity in 7 rounds of best of 5 matches. He is the real deal. Kyrgios is like Safin. He will probably win a couple of slams but will not be consistent enough to be a replacement for the likes of Sampras or the big 4.
What was that from Novak? Such an ill-timed drop shot. Really surprising.
Is it possible that Novak underestimated Z-rev?
Or is Novak’s recovery time really slipped so much that he doesn’t have it? It’s a bit puzzling to me, but come on Sascha you better get this done before he wakes up!
Wow what a horrid drop shot, Novak, lol..
I think Pepe told him too much success at Rome might make him complacent at RG!! It’s all part of Pepe’s plan.It’s about love and peace.
On a serious note, Novak looking listless out there.
Novak on Sascha…”He deserves to be in the final but i’m going to make sure he doesn’t get his hands on that trophy tomorrow”…Is it just me or it sounds a little bit bragging to my ears?Or underestimated Sascha like rc said?
This is real trouble now for Novak!
0-30
Sorry but I think some just read too much into the win over Thiem yesterday. Novak can play great tennis, but has not been able to sustain it throughout the first five months of the year.
Yeah, true Nny.
Sascha was getting nervous that last game.
Be strong Sascha.
you have a big heart, RC.
rc,
Yes I agree! You are a class act!
?
Aye carumba, Sascha should have broke that game— too many nerves.
I think the nerves may be getting to Sascha now. He’s two games away and has to be feeling it as he is on the brink of an upset.
Novak hanging in there. Now it’s up to Sascha to keep it together.
Wow Novak has stepped back to return Zverev’s second serve!
oh my novak hurling abuses and screaming.
This has been quite a serving display from Zverev
Djokovic is in pain right now.He is really frustrated
Novak got a warning for audible obscenity.
Another DF! This is quite shocking!
Oh my God! He did it!
This Zverev is looking scarily good! He hardly does anything wrong!
Djoko looking as bad as Rafa yesterday, all the misfirings! The elements not doing Djoko any favor, Djoko very unhappy about the wind I feel.
I knew that I saw something in this kid!
Sascha did it!
So proud of him!
??
Novak was classy in defeat.
Zverev like Delpo, with a calm and focused mind when it mattered. I really see some similarities between the two.
See,it’s not just about Djoko being one of the fav at FO, we now have Zverev and Thiem too.
Thiem’s coach said there is only Favourite for RG and that’s Rafa and then there are some outsiders like Djokovic, Murray , Thiem.
Rafa is the mighty favourite. Hoping he gets nice rhythm players in the opening rounds and not the serve bots and hard hitter.
This is awesome stuff from zverev!!.. No one predicted it!!..
Zverev gets it! really really really well done!!! I think he couldn’t believe it happened so easily for him! Such a warm hug at the net. Novak’s graciousness is peerless.
Djoko is baaack ?! Where is he baaack?!
LOL!!!
Yes, that was quite premature after one match. More work to be done for Novak.
Maybe now we won’t have to hear any more about him being a co-favorite or favorite or whatever for RG!
From hero to zero?? Really? Must be some sort of ruse.
Yay Sascha!
But sheesh Novak get off the gluten,bro.
Many thought it might be under for nole but actually it reversed!!…
Wow, just wow! Congrats Alex Zverev! What a win! He looks so unbeatable today, playing in the zone!
Djoko’s serves and returns not good today, probably affected by the wind. He’s clearly being outplayed, overpowered by his younger opponent.
If it was windy then it could have affected Novak, but credit is due to Sascha for coming out and playing a great match and keeping it together!
Thank you Sasha for proving me wrong! He is one of my favorite youngsters and I did not believe in him! Sorry kiddo! I will pay more respect to you from now on!
Bravo Zverev! This was a routine win! ??
Djoko is gracious in defeat I must say, even though he may throw tantrums during his matches.
Lucky
He started doing that years ago knowing it would win him brownie points. Pity he ruins the effect with his bellicose celebrations when he wins.
na, you can’t pretend it ALL the time. When you are really hurt, you don’t give a shit about pretending. His graciousnessin defeat at the net is genuine.
I agree with you, VR. Since he is gracious in EVERY single defeat, even when its against someone he has tension with or when it’s a devastating defeat, I have a hard time believing that it’s not genuine… There is obviously at least somewhat of an aspect of “putting on a face” when all you’re feeling is disappointment, but that’s what makes it difficult to always stay gracious! No one who loses is ever just totally fine with it. If Nole’s graciousness was not genuine, he would at least slip up from time to time… Even though the Big 4 are all very competitive during matches, they never are assholes at the handshake.
exactly Kevin! the guy matured. Success changed him for the better. I respect his graciousness in defeat and learn from it.
We’ve just seen the triumph of hope over experience 🙂
ZVEREV WON IN TWO?! THIS IS EPIC HE’S TOP TEN NOW
Yes, they said Zverev would be # 10 if he won! Welcome to the top ten, Sascha!
Nole came out with a dominating win in his mind but zverev outplayed him in all aspects of game. Great tennis!!…
Stats showing Novak only winning 38% of second serve points.
Sixteen point differential between winners and UE’s.
Rod Laver gave Zverev the trophy!
Djokovic would be extremely disappointed. That makes everyone believe that he is beatable. Cant string 2 good matches . Zverev played very good. He and Theim are the ones to watch out for . Well for Djokovic, its strange , looked flat today , should have been fresh given that he has not played a lot this year.
This was kinda reminiscent of Fed- Cilic encounter in 2014 USO.
Zverev was simply zoned in.
Congrats Sasha! Many more to come for you.
Hope Nole improves up further from here and hit his full strides by 2nd week of RG. It definitely was a positive week for him.
So glad Rafa is resting in Mollorca.
Yeah VR, I was thinking about that too!
Zverev wins his first Masters at age 20. Kei, Raonic, Dimi, Goffin, Thiem and Kygrios better do something, before Zverev starts sweeping up the big titles once the big four retire.
It’s interesting to realize that all those guys have yet to win a Masters tournament! Zverev has beaten them to it!
I knew this kid had something special!
I didn’t expect Zverev to win mainly because I thought Novak would be confident after beating Thiem so easily..but Zverev played an outstanding match and was never showing nerves in this match! He is beaten some great opponents here in Rome! Well deserved trophy!
Zverev is also physically fit and well prepared! As I said these youngsters don’t get tired easily.,,the good thing is that Zverev does not seem to be injury prone unlike Kyrgios…
Congrats team Zverev! Great job done!
The commies were saying that Joker has appointed Agassi to coach him. Hope he starts by telling him to fire that phoney guru in the pink baby-grow outfit. It was Marko’s idea in the first place and he seems to be the stand-in for Pepe when he can’t be in attendance. At least we were spared the gruesome sharing his love performance today 🙂
ed251137 says AT 4:10 PM: “Hope he starts by telling him to fire that phoney guru…”
If I may ask, why should a Rafa fan worry about Djoko’s coaching staff ??
Because ed is also a tennis fan. Something you wouldn’t understand.
😆 😆 😆
I really don’t know what to think about Novak’s inability to back up his SF performance.
Poor Thiem. He only got one game yesterday. Hope he can recover in every way and didn’t burn himself out.
Glad Rafa is resting and recharging in Mallorca.
Today’s performance from Novak is telling. He would have grabbed that trophy if he could. He could not do it.
CONGRATULATIONS ALEXANDER ZVEREV!!
rc,
I really thought the whole – Novak is back – was premature. We have seen Novak play some high level tennis in matches, but he can’t sustain it. He put together two great sets of tennis against a Thiem who was gassed. But he came out today and just didn’t have it. That’s the problem he has now. It’s all
about maintaining a consistently high level of play and that requires a great deal of mental concentration. Annacone thinks it’s mental. He said if one day he can play great, then the core game is there. The challenge is to have that focus and concentration on a regular basis. Sascha also deserves credit for coming out and playing quality tennis.
He only just turned 20!
This is an example of disgusting behaviour by a PROFESSIONAL TV commentator:
https://twitter.com/RobKoenigTennis/status/866006113409536001/photo/1
? to Koenig!
Karma hit back today, Mr. Rob!
Everyone (including me) forgetting that Nole played on THREE matches in just over 24 hours.
His level was high at times in the first set but he had little left to sustain it against a perfect Zverev who showed power, finesse and poise.
Great win for him!
Waiting for Roger to now name Sascha as the new favourite to win RG.
That said, I have no doubt.
Nole is back.
And so is Rafa.
Yes, I completely agree with hawkeye. Both Nole and Rafa are back.
While Zverev is improving everyday because he is just 19, we should not forget that our 4 goats are 30 or more and losing something everyday. They have had an unusually long reign because the super talented youngsters just did not have the hunger and therefore the discipline and dedication required to challenge them.
Looks like Zverev maybe the long awaited successor. As hawkeye said, let us hope he doesn’t let this go to his head.
Mary (AT 6:05 PM)
Zverev is 20 years old.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/alexander-zverev/z355/overview
Djoko is still 29 today.
I don’t think a day or two would make much difference in Djokovic’s performance. His actual age is more than 29.997 which, I am sure you will agree, is much closer to 30 than 29.
Zverev is indeed 20 but still below his peak years so you can be sure he is going to be a phenom unless he lets all this get to his head and moves away from the rigor and discipline required to challenge the big 4.
I am really excited about Zverev. After a decade finally we seem to have a guy with talent + the hunger. Sampras, Fed, Rafa, Djokovic and Muzz all defeated the reigning GOAT or won a slam/Masters at age 19. It has been a long wait.
Yeah he’s exciting to watch. Hope he doesn’t let it get to his head.
In the 2000’s decade, DelPo, Rafa, Fed, Nole, Roddick, Hewitt, and Murray, all won at least one Masters and/or one major at age 21 or under. With how much the game has changed, players starting to peak at older ages, and the dominance of the Big 4, I really didn’t believe that we would see any player win even a Masters before their 22nd birthday again, perhaps ever! Boy, was I wrong…
Zverev is big time! I hope he starts doing better at the majors sooner than later… He needs to learn how to pace himself better, and finish off best-of-five matches when he’s in a winning position, i.e. Rafa at AO. Obviously a big part of Zverev’s inability to close that match was because the guy on the other side of the net was arguably the hardest guy to close against in history haha. That being said, there is no question that he totally ran out of steam in that match… That’s why it’s so difficult to beat Rafa and other Big 4 guys at slams! Guys have to go 200 mph just to get TWO sets off of them, and then they don’t have that extra gear that is required to close out a guy like Rafa… I think that if Sascha can improve his fitness, strength, and stamina, and also learn to play at a high level while saving an extra gear, I think he would be a force to be reckoned with at slams in the future.
Kevin, how’s Zverev in a winning position at the AO when he’s only two sets to one up? Even a guy like Djoko, who was leading Rafa 4-2 in the fifth set at FO2013 SF, wasn’t able to close that match and ended up losing; so, Zverev being two sets to one up wasn’t in a winning position, when he’s not leading in the fourth set!
We saw Rafa vs Fed at AO this year, a guy like Rafa was a break up in the fifth set, but still ended up losing the match. I won’t want to say that Zverev, even when not running out of steam, was going to beat Rafa in the match.
Oh, Lucky… Do you really think that I said that Zverev was going to win that match? I mean, I really, truly, went out of my way to make sure that no one could try to put words in mouth… This is important, Lucky- I am not saying, and never did say, that Zverev WILL beat Rafa when 2 to 1 up against him. Never said he SHOULD HAVE beaten Rafa when he was 2 to 1 up. I never said Rafa didn’t deserve the win. I made sure to very clearly point out that a large part of why Zverev lost that match was because he was facing Rafael Nadal. I even mentioned my belief that Rafa is the hardest player to beat, even when you have a 2 to 1 advantage. I never said that Zverev was destined to close it out, that he should have closed it out, or that he was supposed to beat Rafa that day… I did say, however, that I think that Zverev did run out of gas, as did most other people at the time. But I never even remotely said that Zverev was going to win that match had he not run out of gas… I figured that directly pointing out Rafa’s play as a big factor in the win would help keep people from trying to put words in my mouth, but I guess not!
As for your question about the phrase “winning position”, I was simply pointing out that when someone is up 2 sets to 1, they are in a good position to win the match. That’s common sense, though! When someone is up 2 sets to 1, they are in a better POSITION to win the match than the other player because they only need one more set, whereas the other player needs to win two more sets. I’m speaking from a literal, mathematical perspective here… But let me repeat myself so that there’s no more confusion- Being 2 sets to 1 up does not mean that you are supposed to win. It does not mean that the player who is down 2 to 1 cannot win. Especially against Rafa! I would actually imagine that Rafa probably has one of the best winning percentages when down 2 to 1! That being said, I would guess that Rafa has still lost more matches than he has won when he’s been down 2-1. So if Zverev is up 2-1 against Rafa, he is in a good position to win the match at that moment. I happen to believe that Rafa is one of the best ever at coming back and winning when the other player is in a winning position. That’s part of what people are referring to when they talk about his incredible “fighting spirit”. When Djokovic was up 4-2 in the fifth set at RG2013, he was is a winning position! But Rafa fought and won the match because that’s what he does. A “winning position” does not mean you are supposed to win the match, it simply means that you are in a good position to win the match at that given moment. When someone is in a winning position and ends up losing the match, people always say, “Oh, Djoko should have won that match! He was 4-2 up in the third!” Personally, I don’t believe that. I believe that whoever won the match in the end is the one who was supposed to win, or “should have” won.
Nah, Kevin, as I’ve pointed out, even when you’re 4-2 up in the fifth set, there’s still no guarantee that you would win, though in such a situation, you could call it that you’re in winning position for the match, because you’re about to win. Being two sets to one up is not yet in a winning position, because in BO5, there’re still more tennis to be played.
If Zverev was leading 4-2 in the fourth set then yes he’s in a winning position; that’s my take but you may disagree of course.
I’m just pissed with some commentators, who assumed that had Zverev not being tired, he would beat Rafa in four sets, just because he was having MP against Rafa at IW but ended up losing. I’m just so glad that Rafa hammered Zverev at MC, allowing Zverev only two games, that’ll at least put a stop to such nonsense, about Zverev being able to beat Rafa if not for….
It’s like when they saw Zverev beating Fed at Halle, that by logic, he should be able to beat Rafa too! I’m just glad Rafa stopped Zverev all three times they met! Djoko is not so fortunate though, he’s losing to two young gen guys the first time he met them – lost to Kygrios twice and now lost to Zverev.
Koenig doesn’t take himself too seriously and shows an example of karma at his own cost….
https://twitter.com/Rafamazing/status/866319672484007936
RT @RobKoenigTennis: In his 95 Finals, Djokovic has only ever not had a break point on 2 occasions. Both vs Fed, both in Cincy ’12 and ’15. Today may be the 3rd.
It was indeed.
Novak cannot yet sustain a big level of play. He has not won any titles im this clay season. What he has done is made progress. A quarterfinal finish at MC, a semifinal finish at Madrid, no shame in losing to the King of Vlay and now a finalist in Rome.
However, he is not back. There is still more work to be done. This is not a battle of egos or a contest to be right. It’s about honestly assessing where a player is at relative to his success and performance throughout his career.
I think Novak is showing signs of getting back to his best, but he simply is not there yet. He’s in a much better position than Murray right now.
Nobody gave Zverev a chance. But Novak could not come close to replicating his performance against Thiem. Too much was read into that one match. Annacone has been the one commentator who has not gotten carried away. He believes it’s in his head because he can produce quality tennis. Just not the way he used to do it. That’s why he dominated the sport for the last few years.
Rafa is the one who is back. With three titles and a just ended 17 match winning streak. He is where he needs to be. I think it’s kind of insulting to persist in saying that Novak is back. Winning the title today might have made that a more reasonable argument, but Zverev had other ideas.
For someone do young, he displayed poise and confidence in this match. He may have been the overwhelming underdog, but he sure didn’t play like it.
Zverev has a bright future and clearly showed that he is for real.
A few autocorrect typos in my last post.
He has not won any titles in this clay season,
Of course, it’s the King of Clay.
@ nny,
Great post! Couldn’t agree more!
It’s easy to look strong against subpar opponent as was Thiem. Novak has more work to do to prove he is back! He starts to look himself but Novak of old would never lose the final like this. This Nole just couldn’t do more against an inspired opponent!
Honestly, I think it’s a joke to presume Novak could have been tired in this final thus not playing well?! He played one hour match last night where he practically had no opponent and the earlier set-to -finish with Delpo was just like a practice session. One must know Nole is better than that…he is just not back to his best.,,
nats,
Thanks for your thoughts! ?
I think we agree that he’s on the right track, but if you think back to the way he dominated this sport and how he was able to raise his level of play at critical moments in matches and win through sheer force of will, then we know he is not there yet.
Strange.
I can’t think of a single example during his peak when he had to play in three separate matches along with the warm ups and cool downs plus press commitments in just over 24 hour period.
Agree with both NNY and Natashao! Good points.
vr,
Thanks! Glad to know you see it the same way!
?
If Novak being back means he mows down whoever is in front of him, then he is not back. But I am using back, and so also is hawkeye I am sure, is in the sense that physically and mentally he is back, not that he will never get tired or that he will play like a 24 year old Novak or that he will beat everyone in sight. When Fed lost to 17 year old Rafa, no one wanted to believe that it was because Rafa was a goat in the making. It was claimed that Fed was running a fever or something. Djokovic was able to beat Fed and Rafa when he was 19 or 20 and he even won a slam at 20. Fed and Rafa’s losses to him would no doubt be written off by the naysayers here as Fed not being at his best.
First, if you read what I actually said, I am not talking about Novak when he was 24. What I referenced was hiw he has dominated the sport in the last few years. When he finally won RG to get the career slam, he held all four slam titles at that time. He’s been the #1 ranked player for the last few years.
I think about how Novak beat Fed in back-to-back slams at Wimby and the USO in 2015. Fed was playing quite well at the time and many thought he would win AO Wimby and then at the USO. But Novak managed to fight him off by finding another gear when it counted most. He was also a mental beast at that time. He just refused to lose. Fed acquitted himself well in those mTches and if he was up against someone else, he might have prevailed. But that Novak consistently found a way to win.
That is the real Novak and he is not at that level at this time.
In my last post autocorrect inserted AO, along with Wimby and the USO. That should not be there. AO was not part of what I was referencing.
Mary (AT 8:00 PM),
Fed said 8 years later that he lost to Rafa at the 2004 Miami Masters due to a sunstroke he got at Indian Wells.
Tennis Now, March 23, 2012. ¤¤ “I came with a sunstroke from Indian Wells, fine,” said Federer of his first close encounter with a player of the Rafa kind, “but I was starting to feel better and I was like ‑‑ didn’t quite understand what just quite happened.” ¤¤
http://www.tennisnow.com/News/Flashback-Friday–Roger-Meets-Rafa-for-the-First-T.aspx
🙄
Mary, we are not even saying that Djoko has to mow down everyone in a dominant way like he did in the past. We’re just saying he’s not back to his winning ways yet, i.e. able to fight through the draw and wins title(s). In MC, Djoko had to fight through the draw going the distance in every match but finally lost in three to Goffin. At Madrid he struggled through Almagro who was just back from injury; Feli pushed him hard in the next match, and he lost easily to Rafa in the SF.
He did better at Rome, when most of his opponents were rallying with him and did nothing much, and he had a rusty Delpo and a gassed Thiem, making him looked better than he really was. Zverev exposed his shortcomings in the final. If Djoko was/is back, he won’t be misfiring so much, serving so poorly, and not being able to generate a single BP.
When Djoko was playing at a good enough level in the past, he was able to beat an on fire Delpo (like in Shanghai 2013 final), who played as well as Zverev in this Rome final, imo. Djoko obviously is not there yet, though he’s on the right track, and he should get better when the FO comes around. Djoko’s level at the moment is still better than most players’.
Yep, agree with NNY.
Rafa and Djoko are no ordinary players, so we judge where they are, in terms of their performances, differently from the rest of the other non big four players.
To be back to their ‘usual’ levels means getting back to winning ways, ie able to win titles, and beating those they should beat along the way.
Djoko is on the right track but still some way to go before getting back to his ‘normal’ level. His serves and returns are still not there yet, his groundstrokes while solid, but when he’s out of position he tends to misfire his running FH (or BH) shots, ie the precision is not there yet.
I also doubt that Djoko was physically tired, as he took less than an hour to win the second set of his QF, an hour to finish off Thiem in the SF. If anything, Zverev should be more tired having played so many matches so far, I think he’s just behind Rafa and Thiem in terms of number of matches played on clay this season.
Djoko was simply outplayed by Zverev, and I don’t expect a Djoko playing at his usual high level to not being able to generate a single BP, or at least make things a bit more difficult for Zverev. I would say Djoko’s level now is still too inconsistent to be considered that he’s back (back to his usual self when he’s able to win titles, and to play like a big four).
Lucky doesn’t get it.
He will “play like the Big 4” in Paris and can only be stopped by one guy.
We gonna see, no?
Lucky,
Thanks for weighing in because you pointed out a few things that I wanted to mention, i.e. Novak being one of the fittest players in the tour and there was no reason for him to be tired. Zverev played a lot more and should have been tired. He came in as an overwhelming underdog, yet he played extremely well.
The other issue was Novak double faulting in the match more often and also only winning 38% of second serve points in the match. That is not up to his usual standard, because he has a good enough second serve to usually win more then 50% of second serve points. Then there was the sixteen point differential between winners and UE’s. Novak was missing wide open shots that he would normally make.
You just don’t see Novak come into a final and play so poorly. He usually saves his best for the final.
My other point is that if we are not to compare Novak to his 2014 – 2016 self, then what do we compare him to? Is the sense that he won’t win consistently anymore? You said this was his second final this year. What does that say about where he has been at?
I did say to Nats that I think he is improving and going in the right direction. But he is not at his best yet. Maybe that will happen at RG. I don’t know at this point.
You basically said a lot of what I am thinking and I am grateful that you made those points.
I don’t see the reason why it has to get personal or become some petty bickering. We should have our point of view and feel free to say what we think without any cheap shots. It’s just a tennis discussion.
Like others, I didn’t see this coming. Not so surprised by Novak’s play. I thought it was good, but obviously not what it was against Thiem or a year ago. He also played a lot of tennis in the last 72 hours.
But Zverev has improved by leaps and bounds in just a couple months. The biggest difference is the serve, which I had previously thought was not nearly what it should be for someone his height. But to not let Novak get a single break point is incredible. I thought Nole struggled with the ROS all match, but it was mostly that Alex was hitting his serves with such great placement (he really doesn’t hit it that hard, nothing like e.g. Raonic). If Zverev can maintain that kind of serving he will be a force even on days when he doesn’t hit his groundstrokes as well as he did today.
Based on the simplistic analysis I am reading, one could also say that Rafa isn’t back because he hasn’t won a slam yet.
I think Rafa was already back as early as Roland Garros last year before he hurt his wrist.
It’s not about multiple titles. A player has to be back before he wins titles. The titles are the result of being back, nor the cause.
You could see confidence and level of play in Rafa last year and Nole this week to tell both were back to the playing level needed.
Anyone can say a player is back after the titles arrive as a RESULT of being back.
Mary gets it.
It’s not about just the time of the match but the prep time before and after the match. Too simple thinking here. Too big of an ask to expect Nole to perform in three matches over such a short period against very good players.
I think Nole would have struggled in 2015-16 under such circumstances against Zverev at the level he played today.
Everyone mocked when I predicted Fed would win AO and then got upset when I brought that up after my prediction was correct.
My prediction for French Open is that no one other than Rafa will stop him in Paris.
Continue comments to the contrary so I can quote you towards the end of the French Open.
Rafole are back.
I add to my post AT 9:47 PM….
The addition of Agassi in Paris will only help Nole consolidate his recent return to form.
You are right hawkeye. But no use arguing with those who seem to think Djokovic is back only if he mows the field which is not correct. Mowing the field will also depend on who is there in the field and other conditions like how tired is Novak. So even if Novak is in form but he plays back to back matches and loses against an equal or lesser player, it doesn’t mean Novak is slumping. Again Novak maybe back but he plays against someone better, he will lose. To claim that Novak is back only if he wins all the titles assumes that his winning is independent of everything else and he is supreme.
Exactly Mary, winning titles is the RESULT of returning to form.
Rafa won Monte Carlo in 2016, but that wasn’t what convinced me he was back in form.
It wasn’t until Rome that I believed it.
Zverev also beat Roger at Hopman Cup but I could tell that Fed was back.
Now the Big 3 are back.
Not Murray though (but I predicted this at the beginning of the year that I thought he would struggle in 2017 after finally passing the Big 3 for so long.
I am looking forward to the French Open where I fully expect Rafa and Nole to have deep runs until they meet.
Mary, when Djoko is back, he would at least fight through the draw and wins, he doesn’t have to mow them to win. He fought and still lost, meaning he’s not there yet, i.e. his game and his mentality wasn’t ready yet to win. No one is saying that Djoko has to mow through the draw to win!
We are not saying that Rafa has to mow through the draw to win to say that Rafa is back; Rafa has to show us the ability to win title(s) to tell us he’s back to his winning ways; the same can be said of Djoko too. The best proof that Djoko is back is when he can fight through the draw to win the title, or at least show more fight in the final. Right now, what Djoko had shown was his error prone game in the final – not serving well, not returning well, missing his shots.
You ignore that Nole had to fight through having to play in three matches within just over 24 hrs, against three very good players, a perfect example of confirmatory bias.
Yes, that prediction about Fed was amazing. I certainly had a laugh thinking that you and Fedfawns could predict that a 35 year old could win a slam. In fact when it happened I concluded that Fed was doping. Not sure that it was correct. Fed was certainly helped by Novak and Muzz slumping and Rafa still not back.
You’re not sure that it was correct that Fed was doping? How careful of you, Mary. Slander Federer without evidence, but you’re “not sure” that it was correct. You really have it in for the guy, don’t you?
Have you ever suspected Rafa of doping Joe Smith?
Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve certainly wondered, perhaps *suspected* many players and athletes of doping. I wouldn’t be terribly surprised by an announcement that any player (including Federer) was doping. There’s too much incentive to do so, though I’m sceptical of its effectiveness in enabling one to hit great tennis shots.
In any case, I don’t *conclude* such things (as Mary did) without good evidence, much less make public accusations (albeit on an anonymous forum). I’m not aware of any such evidence that Federer or Nadal are dopers. And one GS title, given Fed’s recent record of deep runs at slams, does not count as evidence.
semantics
oh a Fed fawn gets so offended by me saying I concluded that Fed was doping. Honestly, the chances are that he is. He has the exact physique of somebody doping on blood or HGH. Fed fawns set up whole sites devoted to accusing Rafa of doping claiming his muscular build proved he was on steroids. Surprise, surprise, the dope of choice is not muscle building steroids in tennis ( or cycling). All the recognizable names caught in the doping net have been thin. Cilic, Sharapova … ha ha. So the argument that Fed doesn’t dope because he doesn’t appear muscular now is turned on its head and he looks exactly like a doper.
Hawk: You didn’t respond to the substance of my reply, which is that Fed winning AO isn’t evidence that he’s doping, given his strong recent performances.
Mary, I’m not offended by anything you or anyone says on an anonymous site. Rather, I think it’s stupid of you to “conclude” it based on no evidence -I repeat, Fed winning AO is not evidence- and irresponsible to say it, even anonymously.
Vamosrafa: you may some excellent points, and I applaud your even-handedness in this issue. Hawk is right that doping can do many things in terms of recovery, but as you say, the differences Fed made in this year’s AO match didn’t really have to do with that at all. It was more a matter of exercising mental demons and, of course, hitting a number of phenomenal BHs, which doubtless he had worked long and hard on.
Mary, if you care, I would say the exact same thing about someone who publicly accused Rafa of doping based on no evidence (which, as I’ve already said, I think there is none): it’s stupid and irresponsible.
Mary, you’re being harsh about Fed, that you think he’s doping when he won the AO. Fed had reached the finals at Wimbledon and USO2015 and SF of AO2016 but only to be stopped by one man i.e. Djoko.
When Djoko was knocked out in R2 at the AO, Fed’s chances for the title went up. Murray losing in R4 had made it even better for Fed. Fed at 35 was still better than most, including fellow top ten players like Kei, Berdych and Stan!
It’s weird we have to say things like these. Have some respect please. Not a fan but I admire what he has done.
It’s staggering how some Rafa fans don’t even talk about the improvemnets Federer has made, esp on his backhand.I am damn sure the guy worked is ass off and had the belief he could still do it. He was down 3-1 against his nemesis in a 5th set and it is so easy to just throw in thr towel. It was all looking like a similar script but it’s amazing he fought back. I know Rafa couldn’t unleash his absolute best and the long semi probably had some role too.
Fed having to win three 5-setters to get his 18th at 35 was truly amazing.
Doping accusations rather than acknowledging someone did awesome is bizarre.
vr,
Thank you. I agree. It’s unfortunate to bone on here to read this.
Agree VR!!…Fed is one of the GOAT[if not GOAT already!]..it’s okay if some don’t like him..but at least respect and admire of what he already achieved in this sport..it’s truly amazing..same with Rafa and nole and Andy..they’re all special…
HOW has doping played role? Doping doesn’t heko you exorcise your mental demons! It doesn’t improve your shot making skills I reckon! Neither does it help players create new strategies.
One major reason I see behind Fed’s miracle comeback is his willingness, confidence and improved ability to hit through service returns MUCH more frequently! He used to cede control by chipping and slicing way too many backhand returns against Rafa and Djokovic. He was hitting a lot more topspin backhands to return Rafa’s serves and those returns caught Rafa off guard. This was a major change in dynamics. Apart from this, I am not going to talk about his backhand being better now as I have done so many times.
Trust me, you don’t need to look at stuff like doping to explain these events.
MA, you are free to respect whomsoever you like. What gives you the right to dictate to me? Were you able to dictate to those who set up all those awful sites accusing Rafa of doping or the posts made on Fed’s fan site describing Rafa as a pig and talking of roasting him?
I did not find holier than thou fans like you defending Rafa. Why then are you defending Fed?
Doping allows recovery and endurance needed for two weeks of long best of five matches.
HGH gives strength to allow improved power in serve and ground strokes, something typically one begins to lose into their mid thirties.
It is no surprise to me that many players are at their career best post 30 whereas this was not the case 10-15 years ago.
This is happening in all professional sport.
It’s unfortunate to COME on here and read this! *
So that makes it likely that he was doping even in 2015 and 2016.
I hear rumours that there are no surprise doping tests for Fed and tests are done with permission and prior appointment with the GOAT.
Haha. ‘Rumours’ is all there is. First it was Rafa and now Federer.
It is rumors because there is no actual evidence to back it up. It’s like tit for tat. Someone says something about Rafa and then it’s all about accusing Fed of doping.
Making that kind of accusation without specific evidence, is at best irresponsible and at worst an attempt to smear.
If we cannot state opinions unless backed up with evidence then equally the holier than thou fans here cannot say Fed is NOT doping because they have no evidence to back up their claim that Fed is not doping.
Anyone would struggle with Zverev the way he played today. He didn’t just beat Novak, he overpowered him and would have done so to most players.
I disagree that no one but Rafa can stop Rafa at RG. On a given day, a number of players could. IMO, this version of Zverev (and a few other big hitters) could stop Rafa even if he’s on form.
Not saying it’s likely and agree that Rafa is the clear favourite to win the tournament.
Who are you disagreeing with here Joe Smith?
I have not seen such a claim.
Sorry, Hawk, I see now that I mis-read you.
accepted
You are the one sounding holier than thou!
There is no proof to back up such a serious allegation and you know it! Conspiracy theories are not fact nor are they evidence of anything other than an overactive imagination.
It’s not like doping is a cure-all! If a player is struggling with lack of mental focus or confidence, then that cannot be solved by drugs.
AT 9:47 PM,
You don’t get it: Mary says “Djoko is back” because she wants to belive that Zverev beat “Djoko-who-is-back.”
I like that, Augusta.
Nothing against Mary, but I feel a player of Djoko’s stature, when he’s really back, he should start winning titles. He’s slowly getting back on track, from reaching QF to reaching Final. I won’t be surprised that Djoko may meet Rafa at the FO SF, provided he’s not stopped by an inspired Zverev along the way.
Djoko’s current level is good enough to beat most players, not mowing them, but beat them and fights hard if necessary. It’s the form players that Djoko may have a problem with, like Goffin, Rafa and Zverev. Thiem may have his chances against Djoko if he can play like a top form Stan and not the Thiem in the Rome SF.
AT 5:26 PM,
You don’t get it: Mary says “I am using back, and so also is hawkeye I am sure, is in the sense that physically and mentally he is back, not that he will never get tired”
Please read more carefully next time. If you did, you might see that Mary is quite adept at speaking for herself, much better than you can speak for her.
5:26 AM.
Hawkeye, i agree your Fed pic was really cool and I said it back then as well.
To me, mere predictions don’t have much value. I always look at the reasoning and the analysis. I know you have your predictions backed up and I guess you had in mind that the courts were playing quicker, Fed must be well-rested, Nadal and Novak not at their best while Murray not good enough to beat Fed etc.
Regarding Novak being back, I agree he doesn’t have to win title after title to show he is ‘back’.But, there isn’t enough evidence of him being back either. Thiem was a spent force in that match and one good performance not good enough. I remember Rafa playing really well in the second set against Berdych in Madrid 2015 semi only to get thrashed in the final by Muzz. Thing is, when you have been struggling, doubts can get back to you real quick.you lack confidence to show that level every day against diff opponents.
I am NOT saying Djokovic can’t play at a high level at RG. But, i have simply not seen enough from him to conclude he is truly back to the level needed to win RG. Didn’t he show a very good level to beat Delpo earlier in the year only to melt againat Kyrgios? He has just been so erratic and the only way to erase that pattern is to win some good matches on the trot.
If he does that at the French, I hope my man will be there waiting to spoil his party.
I think Nole played well vs RBA and Delpo which is when I said he was back.
The Thiem match just solidified it for me.
I hope you find my early assessment of Nole being back equally cool when my prediction of no one beating him before he faces Rafa in Paris comes to fruition.
We gonna see, no?
It’s sad that it becomes all about being right. That’s the be-all and end-all for some.
If you have another opinion or belief then you have to be wrong and must be i silted and degraded or responded to as though you are an idiot.
This is not life and death and it’s not that important in the grand scheme of things. Now we are being told that our comments will be thrown back st us if necessary.
It’s a tennis discussion, for heaven’ sake!
…. full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing,,,,
(not to mention yet another lazy (yet transparently self-projecting) strawman argument “all about being right”, and ironically having nothing to do with tennis.
I add to my post AT 2:31 PM….
I never thought at any time in 2015 that Rafa was back.
It’s in the confidence, body language and shot making. The titles come AFTER a return to form as a RESULT. They are not the cause. I saw this in Rafa at the French Open last year and I saw it in Federer long before he was winning titles, In both cases, the titles followed.
I can see it in Nole now in three matches in Rome. He even showed it at times in the first set vs Zverev, but he couldn’t sustain it after playing in three matches in just over 24 hours including the cycle of warm up and cooling down plus press commitments against very strong opponents. Even Thiem said he game doesn’t match up well with Nole and many players this week said Nole’s level had returned. So has Becker.
I trust those people.
We gonna see, no?
#NoleIsBack
Depends Hawkeye. Like I said, I am more interested in observing how things play out. If he simply gets a lucky draw and good players keep crashing out and he gets a chance to play himself into form in the first 4-5 matches, then that’s different. Let’s see how things play out. I am more interested in his level of play for a few good matches on the trot.
I don’t think luck will have anything to do with his early rounds.
First three rounds will give him plenty of time.
I saw plenty in his Delpo, RBA and Thiem matches to see that the fire and execution is back – something that has been lacking since completing the Grand Slam in Paris.
He’s a guy that needs a challenge which was lost when he was beating everyone and winning everything. He was also burnt out. Everyone saw how it looked like he was phoning it in and wasn’t emotionally invested.
He has that back again. You can easily see it.
An average draw will be fine.
This is not the Nole that lost to Querrey, Delpo and Kyrgios IMO. I don’t see them troubling him now on clay in BO5. And I do think he would beat Zverev there should they meet.
Agassi will only further fortify his belief and desire.
VR, very well put. Djoko now is very much like Rafa of 2015/2016, i.e. he can play great in one match and then plays like crap in the next. Rafa reached the Doha final in 2016 and then lost in R1 at the AO. He played well against Kuznetsov at the USO in 2016 and then lost in five sets to Pouille next when he was leading in the fifth set with a service break.
Until Djoko can consistently play well match after match, I think he’s still not back to his usual consistent self before his slump, though he’s getting closer and closer to that level, evident by him progressing further and further into the draws tournament after tournament.
No, he WAS like Rafa in some ways (different reasons) and I’d also dispute the periods of time that Rafa’s state of game was somewhat similar.
Rafa’s struggles (in terms of inconsistency was from 2014-2016.5 (up to FO). So it began and ended earlier than what you’ve said IMO.
During this time, Rafa never showed the confidence and consistency that Nole did for three matches in Rome.
They both have that fire burning inside again allowing them to fully perform to their current physical potential again. Just like Fed.
#NoleIsBack
2014 (after AO).
Lucky,
I am in agreement with both you and vr. I think you made some very relevant points about the similarities between Rafa of 2015 – 2016 and Novak recently.
I remember well how Rafa’s level could swing wildly from one match to the next. He famously described his forehand as vulgar. I think it was sfterche lost to Fog for the first time in the South American clay swing. He was up and down and we would think he might be back, only to realize that he. Hold play well at times but not consistently. That is the key as you said.
That is what allows a player to go deep in tournaments and to win titles and it is the very quality that is missing now with Novak.
Novak would never come out play so tentatively in a final. In fact, I think his performance had everything to do with elves and doubts creeping back in. I believe that vr said something about the doubts creeping back in when a player is coming out of a slump. The DF’s, the poor serving in only winning 38% of second serve points and the bad judgment with shot selection, as well as missing wide open shots all indicate lack of confidence and mental strength.
It’s a function of not getting to enough finals this year. I have said that I think Noval is now improving in going deeper in the clay court warmup tournaments. But he is not there yet,
AT 1:42 PM
Read carefully my post AT 5:26 AM.
Trashing and insulting what I write, does not a coherent argument make.
It’s the last refuge of someone who has nothing else to offer except boorishness andc rudeness.
Your second paragraph is hypocritical with respect to your opening paragraph.
It’s a tennis discussion, for heaven’ sake!
AT 3:05 PM
On second reading, your post is just as misinformed. You should not speak for others. You have a hard enough time doing it for yourself.
It’s a tennis discussion, for heaven’ sake!
AT 3:05 PM
I repeat: read carefully my post AT 5:26 AM.
[augusta008 MAY 22, 2017 AT 5:26 AM
You don’t get it: Mary says “Djoko is back” because she wants to belive that Zverev beat “Djoko-who-is-back.”]
Correction
AT 3:05 PM ➡ AT 3:45 PM
AT 4:05 PM
I repeat: your post is just as misinformed. YOU need to REWRITE carefully your post AT 5:26 AM. People shouldn’t be expected to read your mind.
It’s a tennis discussion, for heaven’ sake!
Rinse and repeat.
AT 4:30 PM,
My comment AT 5:26 AM is about tennis.
AT 5:07 PM,
No, your comment AT 5:26 AM (as incorrect as it is) is about Mary.
AT 5:17 PM
It’s about evaluating Djoko.
AT 5:32 PM
No, it’s about what you think Mary believes.
AT 12:05 AM,
You don’t get it.
AT 9:22 AM,
I wouldn’t want it (whatever it is). Mary explained her position clearly. Don’t need you to speak incorrectly for her. Speak for yourself (oh, forgot, you don’t express your own opinions on tennis).
AT 4:30 PM,
You are not letting people forget that you are making up stories (aka expressing original thoughts).
AT 4:55 PM,
Oh look! Another original opinion about another poster from augusta008 (aka making up stories), yet not one single original opinion on tennis from her ever.
Stop speaking for other posters incorrectly, and speak for yourself about tennis for once.
The poster AT 5:11 PM is producing original thoughts (aka made-up stories), as usual.
The poster AT 5:40 PM is self-projecting about made up stories (aka her only original content on TG), and not even once capable of commenting on tennis once ever, as usual.
AT 5:26 PM, I repeat:
You don’t get it: Mary says “I am using back, and so also is hawkeye I am sure, is in the sense that physically and mentally he is back, not that he will never get tired”
The poster AT 7:33 PM doesn’t get it, no matter what. LOL
The poster AT 10:26 tries to change the subject of incorrectly speaking for other posters and has never had one original thought regarding tennis posted on this site since its inception several years ago.
Amazing!
The poster AT 11:32 AM has made up stories (aka original thoughts) on this site since its inception. Hilarious!
The poster AT 11:39 AM adds to her endless original thoughts about other posters while never having a single original thought on tennis here.
Nativenewyorker AT 3:37 PM,
My post AT 3:05 PM has nothing to do with YOU!
I have no idea what you’re writing about in your Reply AT 3:37 PM. ❓
augusta,
Who said I was talking about you? What is wrong with you? My issue is with Hawkeye and that Is who my comments are directed at. I have no issue with you.
Chill out!
Nativenewyorker AT 4:13 PM,
Your posted your comment (AT 3:37 PM) as a Reply to my comment. 🙂
It doesn’t matter how many people agree with you NNY. The flaw in your reasoning is that you define Novak being back as being able to dominate as he did in 2015 and part of 2016. This assumes the field doesn’t change in terms of who is there or in terms of the form of those who are there.
Mary,
You need to stop distorting what I am saying in other words, don’t use a strawman argument and don’t talk down to me.
I read what you said in your other response. Nowhere did I ever say that Novak had to mow the field down to be back. You are putting words in my mouth and misconstruing what I said.
Nobody is counting how many people agree with me. It’s not a contest, except to you. It is a simple difference of opinion. You may not be able to tolerate that, but it’s what happens on a forum. My opinion is as valid as yours, no matter your attempts to demean it.
I stand by what I said. It shouldn’t matter to you who agrees with me. But apparently it does. Too bad.
There is this unfortunate tendency to need to try to win an argument at all costs, even if it means talking down to a person because they do not agree.
I don’t need you to approve of what I say. I made my points already as to why I believe that Novak is not back to his best. Winning titles is a part of playing well consistently enough to get results. I said it about Rafa and I am saying it about Novak.
I do not intend to allow you to drag me into some endless and pointless back and forth just because you refuse to accept my point of view. It’s a waste of energy.
…. full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing,,,,
Agree Nny!!…Hey guys…why don’t we discuss everything in this forum with calm and maturity because we’re all an adult and not 6 years old kindergarten kids who only want to win and didn’t know at all how to tolerate other people’s opinion…
We’re all have our own opinions…it doesn’t hurt one bit if we’re trying to accept other’s opinion instead of trying to pick every single things that other’s said just because we don’t agree with them…C’mon guys!Chill!!…We’re here to enjoy rafa and other greats in tennis…let’s enjoy them and not fighting okay?
MA,
I appreciate your sentiments, but there are those who have an agenda and it gets ugly. It’s not about being mature and respectful. It’s about putting down others so that some can feel better about themselves.
It has gotten out of hand. It’s become personal and then the very ones who made it personal try to project it into others.
It’s toxic and offensive. We are being told what to think basically. If we don’t go along with it, then we have to be publicly embarrassed and humiliated.
I have put up with it for a while now, but have had my fill of it.
You are a good person who has no meanness in you. I applaud your efforts to try to restore civility here. But it takes all parties to act in good faith and there are some who will never do that.
You speak of yourself nny. You are the only one that made it personal.
I would suggest you first practise what you preach. Like MA does. Never a bad word for anyone.
Hey Nny…I just woke up and when i browse here and whooo!..it’s certainly getting ‘hot’ in here!…
Nny…i agree wholeheartedly with your post at 2:13am and once again at 4:06pm..when i wrote my post up there,i don’t have u in my mind…okay…how about we practice what we always do when Rafa lose..that,this is just a tennis forum…we voiced our opinion and if there is some who don’t agree with it or start to throw a bait…just ,let it go..sometimes it’s best to do that….if we keep eating their bait..trust me Nny..it will not end…sometimes it will only make us very frustrated and angry for a whole day!..Is it worth it?No!…
Let’s stick to what we love most Nny…Rafa!!…Other things is not important…And u deserve to make yourself happy Nny,especially after your health crisis…Other things that can make u unhappy,just leave it aside..it’s not worth it..okay Nny?Love u!!!
MA,
I have come to the same conclusion. I had some things that I felt needed to be said. I wasn’t strong enough after I got out of the hospital to speak up for myself when I was getting attacked at the time, so I felt that I needed to get it off my chest.
But you are right. It just is not worth it. Especially after what I went through, I told you that I did get some perspective on life and what is truly important. Health comes first. What someone says anonymously on a tennis forum, someone who doesn’t know me and never met me, means nothing in the grand scheme of things.
I just don’t like to have my words distorted and twisted to mean something that they do not. It’s really annoying. But there is no way to stop what is said, so best to just let it go.
I am looking forward to seeing Rafa at RG. I can’t wait! We should be in for some great tennis matches! I think he is getting the rest he really needed and things worked out for the best in the end. He got in a few matches at Rome and then he was able to go home and take it easy.
Please be sure to let me know when the bracket is open and we can make our picks! I am looking forward to the bracket challenge! Slams can be the most challenging!
So we will talk about Rafa and all things tennis and keep it positive and happy!
Thanks for your wise words. I have a lot to be thankful for right now! 🙂
Nny!..I understand what u mean…sometimes we feels that we need to take a stand and defend ourselves from the unfairness..but,if things didn’t cool down after that…just let it go,okay?It’s better that way…
Now…talking about Rafa..take a look at this article Nny…especially at the last 2 paragraph…hehehe…now,that’s a relief!!!
http://www.ibtimes.com/rafael-nadal-french-open-2017-odds-still-strong-after-italian-open-2542299
Oh!Nny!…Yesterday,i already post my comment about how happy i am that your health is okay now and i wish u will have a better,healthy,stronger and happy life after this…You’re a VERY STRONG women Nny..if u can fight like a brave warrior and came out victorius with your health…just remember,what happen in this forum surely just a pale comparison to what you have been through right?..So,Vamos Nny!!
Not to you it’s not just a tennis discussion! No way! Don’t make me laugh! Anyone who dares to have a different opinion gets patronized ad nauseum!
Anyone who has to build themselves up throwing out cheap shots, has issues.
It’s sad.
It is ironic that it is you that makes this personal nny. A classic example of self-projection.
No one made it personal except you.
Despite claiming it as a tennis discussion, the last several of your own posts have been personal.
Completely agree.It is sad that nny makes everything personal and what SHE feels about something, she projects on to others and claims that that is what THEY feel. Instead of a reasoned discussion, it then becomes toxic.
#Sad
I hear an echo! Not surprising!
So sad!
nny continuing to not take her own advice.
You wrote above, “My opinion is as valid as yours, no matter your attempts to demean it.” yet you were the first on this thread to demean others opinions because they were different from your own.
And I don’t see where others demeaned your opinions on tennis (other than to take an alternate position which should not be construed as demeaning).
MA,
Thanks for your kind words! You are right! Compared to what I went through, this should be easy!
I guess that I am stronger than I realized!
Again thanks for your words of wisdom!
?❤️
Nny!!..Hehehe…I think you’re in Rafaland somewhere..zzzzzzz! at this mo….that’s okay!..i just wanna say “You’re Welcome Nny!”..Always!
Sweet dream My Queen!!..Love u too!!Woohoo!!
augusta,
I must have hit reply by mistake.
Sorry for the confusion!
?
Hawkeye,
Nice try but your cheap shots at me are well documented. The word silly has been used, straw man argument. When I had just gotten out of the hospital, you went after me personally in multiple posts about how stupid it was to use a strawman argument. You posted videos about it ridiculing what I said. Repeatedly. I couldn’t stand up for myself then because I was still too weak. So I had to let your insults go at the time. You know what you did and pretending that you never did it and projecting your behavior onto me dies not change what you did.
You did it and are now trying to put it on me. Typical, but it’s not going to work.
No, they are not. I will call out a straw man argument regardless of who makes them.
That is not personal. Nor have I ever called you silly.
And I don’t see where others demeaned your opinions on tennis (other than to take an alternate position which should not be construed as demeaning).
So, I am stating facts whereas you are using words like “cheap shots” and saying I am going after you personally without any evidence.
You wrote above, “My opinion is as valid as yours, no matter your attempts to demean it.” yet you were the first on this thread to demean others opinions because they were different from your own.
Those are two facts. Not an attack. Not personal.
And you tell others to stick to tennis, but you don’t lead by example.
Hawkeye,
“Sound and fury signifying nothing. ”
You used that one twice.
Is that supposed to be a compliment?
Just because you don’t own what you say here, doesn’t mean you are not gett No personal.
Not getting personal!*
Those posts I replied to had nothing to do with tennis, but were rants on other people claiming inaccurately they were attacking you personally.
So yes, I thought it was sound and fury signifying nothing. It was sound (electronic) and definitely fury (which you meant to convey) and had nothing to do with tennis and therefore signifying nothing in that vein (since you said it should be about tennis).
I don’t see that as an attack, nor personal.
Whereas you were the first ironically on this thread to demean others opinions despite calling out others for doing so.
Again, just facts, not personal.
Yet you just repeated the insult. It’s your opinion and interpretation about what I said. Not facts. Or don’t you know the difference?
You started the personal attacking two months ago. You know precisely what I am talking about, but I see why you would ignore it.
You called it stupid when I supposedly used a strawman argument. Is that a fact? So you find ways to dodge the issue. Not surprising! You didn’t let go of it either. You kept on rifuclujbg me, yet you now have the gall to attack me for gettIng personal. You made it personal. It’s what you do. Then you bob and weave and try to talk your way out of it. You know what you did.
When you can behave yourself and tear others with dignity, then they will respond in kind. If you throw around cheap shots and try to make fun of someone for what they say, then don’t expect to get a reasonable reply.
You kept on ridiculing me. *
Treat others with dugnity.*
This is my last response to you because it’s not gettIng through.
No it is you that makes this personal and takes words out of context.
These are the two facts I referred to:
1) You wrote above, “My opinion is as valid as yours, no matter your attempts to demean it.” yet
2) You were the first on this thread to demean others opinions because they were different from your own. Go back and look for yourself on the first page.
You say I make fun of what you say, yet you call my opinions “absurd”. There is a word for which that behaviour defines, but you would consider it a “personal attack”.
As I said, facts, not personal attacks.
Very valid arguments.
According to the strange logic of this person you mention, I am your echo if I agree with the facts stated by you. Agreeing with facts doesn’t make anyone an echo. So if hawkeye says the sun rises in the east, I must say it rises in the west otherwise I am an echo.
Exactly Mary.
You and I don’t always agree so how can you be an echo? Yet even nny often posts to agree with other posters so how does she then feel free to demean others by calling them echos?
To rc!…..YAY!!!!Congrats for winning our ATP Bracket bro!![again!Urgh!!]..,and to Nny too for 3rd place…hey,u guys kick my b@#$ real bad!!!hahahaha….Race u to RG now guys!!!!Who’s late getting there,they’re a chicken!!woohoo!!….Hehehehehehawhawhaw!!
MA,
Hiw on earth did I finish third? I didn’t even get the finalists right!
I had given up on my bracket! Are you sure?
MA,
Is the bracket challenge for RG up yet?
Nny!…Take a look at this Milady!!…Wooohooo!!Err..is it 3rd or 2nd??i’m not sure….Btw..according to augusta,the draw will be made on 26th[friday]…that means we can make a pick on Friday…
Oh Nny…have u seen this before?It’s an old commercial but this is the first time i stumbled into it..and wanna share with u….
http://doartenis.ro/2013/05/video-rafael-nadal-mananca-un-castron-de-biscui%C8%9Bi-in-noua-reclama-quely/
Oopps!Sorry Nny!Forgot to put a link for u to see about your position in the Bracket..
http://www.tennisdrawchallenge.com/group/standings/68/atp/bracket/2017-rome
MA,
Well if I had not seen it I would not have believed it! It was a close race for the top
spot. Tommo and I seem to be tied for second!
I am really surprised. I had Rafa in the final. I don’t even remember who I picked for the other finalist.
Thanks for showing it to me! Seeing is believing!
?
Nny!!Hehehehe…you’re welcome Nny!!…Err,i have to ask u this…How r u nowadays Nny?I’m dying to know how’re u doing atm….all better now?Btw…i want to say something….
http://www.hdwallpaper.nu/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/I-love-you-valentine-day-wallpaper.jpg
Hehehehehe….
Nny!!YAY!!!!!!WOOOHOOO!!!Alhamdullillah!!Thank u God!!!!All the more reason to enjoy rafa this summer Nny!!Woooohooooing once again!!
MA,
Thanks for that link to the commercial! I know that Rafa lives those! Too cute!
?
MA,
I will share with you that I had a final checkup with the surgeon and I am A – Okay!
For real!
Something to celebrate! I will be ready to cheer on Rafa as he goes for La Decima st RG!
??
Nny!…Do u believe me now??Hehehehe…keep up the good work for RG now Nny!!wooohoooo!!!
Congrats NNY, about your check up results. Do take care.
Lucky,
Thanks for your kind words!
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I could tell Fed was back before he won three hard court tournaments at the beginning of the year while many said he was old, slow and/or fat.
But now it is easy for everyone to see he is back.
History repeats.
Wait until Fed comes back to see if he is indeed back 😀
Just because he was back doesn’t mean he remains back lol
Fed really looked fat and slow. So what happened? Was that “fat” not fat but muscle?
rc, your post sounds like a tongue twister. Whether he is back or not will, according to some pundits here ( are you one of them?), depend on whether he wins titles or not . So if he wins Halle, he is back, if he loses Wimbly, he is not back, if he wins Canada, he is back, he loses Cincinnati, he is not back, he wins USO, he is back…..so on, he is back, he is not back in dizzying succession, all determined by whether he wins titles or not. This argument also leads to the conclusion that at any time only one player can be back as only one can win a title!! So both Rafa and Nole cannot be back at the same time!!!!!
I think he is back until he proves otherwise.
No reason to suggest a sudden drop in level once grass begins and he remains selective with his schedule.
Fed only slumped in my opinion in 2013 and recovered once his back was better and he switched to a new racquet.
Nole only slumped after French Open until his recent return to form.
Rafa slumped in 2014-2016.5. He is so good on clay that he was still able to win the FO while slumping.
We gonna see about Fed, no?
And Novak doesn’t appear back in the sense of consistency. I have to see more match play to agree he’s reliable. The hiring of Agassi gives me hope.
Well somewhat depends on how we define consistency.
However, I go with my own eyes plus what the players who have played against him (and Becker) have said this week.
Again, first time in a long time I’ve seen him emotionally invested and Rome was his if not for the rain delays IMO.
While anything is POSSIBLE on any given day, I don’t see Rafa or Nole losing in the French prior to meeting in the semis in RG.
Nor do I see Fed or Nole losing to anyone at Wimbledon prior to meeting in the final.
Those are my predictions.
What do you think of Muzz’s chances at Wimbly?
FWIW, as it stands as of this moment in time, I am picking Rafa for RG and Fed for Wimbledon.
USO too early to call. Even for Me!!!
Also while I agree completely that Nole is back, I do not think it rules out Zverev or Kyrgios ( if his head is screwed on right) beating Nole before the final. Fed is less likely to fail simply because no one dangerous would be in his path till at least the semis and in all probability, till the final.
As it stands, not good (unless he really turns it around in grass lead ups).
Where is Lendl by the way? He should have been with him earlier than just for RG. Certainly once it was obvious he was struggling.
Duly noted.
But did you watch the Rome final?
Novak was goofed up again. Imo he only showed confidence and the sort of positve focus in his eyes on the day he played tired Thiem.
Delpo’s best performance was the 3 set match vs Dimitrov. Delpo isn’t in good enough shape to hold the level he had during the Dimitrov match into the rest of his matches.
Rafa is the strongest but he was playing on fumes in the Thiem match. Thiem had nothing left vs Novak.
We gonna see soon! Can’t wait for the draw!
Yeah possible. I’d give Zverev a better shot but both big underdogs IMO if Nole carries last week’s form into Paris.
However, I think at least three of four of Zverev, Kyrgios, Delpo and Thiem will be in Rafa’s quarter, so I doubt that Nole will face either Kyrgios or Zverev.
But if Zverev is not in Rafa’s quarter, he will be in Nole’s. Same for the other three for that matter.
No I definitely saw it in RBA and Delpo matches.
Yes I watched the final. Zverev was amazing. Nole was tired but I’ve explained that already.
Rafa was definitely overplayed. But that’s ok. Well needed rest.
Feli after losing to Nole in Madrid:
“I think he played very well, too. He served strongly, well, with a lot of rhythm. He has changed the rhythm of his game a lot. He played very fast and very smart.
Perhaps the other days I have seen him with ups and downs, but today I saw him play very consistent and strong during the whole match. We both have to be happy about today’s match.”
Yes to what Feliciano said and I liked how Novak performed vs Rafa in Madrid.
But no on RBA and Delpo. RBA is close to burn out at this point — he just wasn’t his snappy self. There’s some very worn down clay specialists at this point: PCB and ARV, too. They’ve all been at it since South America.
Delpo actually had a real backhand for most of that glorious win over Dimitrov durine his first Rome match – that was a battle. Every match after that Delpo was relying strictly on his serve and forehand and by his match v Nole there was nothing left, imo.
Novak was spaced out but playing from rote memory vs RBA. I didn’t like it. But he took away confidence from those wins and tho Thiem was tired I was excited how Novak played v Thiem…so much so that I was positive that he’d take the trophy.
He played distracted and annoyed, even spitting mad at one point in the match.
But he’s the nicest gentleman at the net and in defeat.
Sascha gets many easy points with his serve and he recovers really well. He looked the best by Rome, surprisingly. He’s in good condition!
I liked how Nole fought through his struggle vs RBA whereas in the past I think he would have just checked out.
Yes, before his match with RBA that is exactly what I thought Novak might do, “check-out” if RBA made him work. Luckily RBA was not at his best. Fortunately I don’t see RBA, Cuevas, or PCB playing this week. But ARV is- crazy man.
I think Rafa actually was in great pain in some set, must be the last one. I was really crying when it appeared that it was over. I still seem to see those heart sinking moments in slow motion. But he managed through sheer will power to gut it out and lift the trophy.
My comment was a nudge to hawkeye.
I have no interest in discussing the topic.
#catalyst
RC, you sure you liked how Djoko played against Rafa at Madrid? I’m not sure you get it right! Djoko got hammered by Rafa!
Yes, he got hammered bit he took it well. In Madrid, all I was looking for was improvement. He made the SF. Then in Rome, he exceeded my expectations by making the final but I don’t consider him “back”. That remains to be seen,imo.
rc,
I have already weighed in on my thoughts about Novak. Lucky and I are in agreement. He has made progress. That is true. There are some good signs, because he is able to produce dome high level tennis. But he can’t sustain it.
I think Lucky broke it down quite well with his matches. I agree with her take.
You should be encouraged by his progress. This doesn’t turn around overnight.
But you just don’t see Novak’s level go up and down like it did in the semis and final.
The poor serving from Novak, the DF’s and some of the poor shot selection, ill-timed drop shots and missing wide open shots, are all an indication that something is still amiss. Novak doesn’t get tired. The match with Delpo may have spilled over into the next day, but it was one set that was over pretty quickly. The match with Thiem barely lasted an hour.
The other thing that I would like to say is that I am not maintaining that a player must win every tournament they play in, every title to be back. That is not possible although Novak has certainly dominated in the last few years.
So for the sake of clarification, it’s not winning every title, all or nothing. But Novak’s consistently high level of play made it possible for him to go deep in many tournaments and have chances to win.
Nny
His performance in Madrid was a good step in the direction of being back. In no way did I expect him to beat Rafa in the SF there. If Novak was back I don’t think he would necessarily have won that match but he would have fought and made it closer. Something is still off — mentally and perhaps physically (not an injury) but in terms of his preparation and confidence. I need to see more of him in match play.
If he is back he’ll make a deep run at RG but I wouldn’t expect him to beat Rafa there to say he’s back. His best tennis at RG didn’t assure him of a title there in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2015. 2011 and 2015 were banner years for him but he still lost to Stan. Losing to Stan didn’t mean he wasn’t “back” or inconsistent — 2015 was tremendously consistent. In fact through all those years I considered him consistent.
It made me laughed, when I listened to the commentators during the Djoko/Thiem match; they said ‘Djoko is back’, and joked that Djoko should save his money and forget about getting Agassi as coach. I wonder how they felt the next day, when Djoko got hammered by Zverev in the final! Probably embarrassed by their silly mistakes, jumping into conclusions too soon, taking things for granted that Djoko sure to win the final to collect his 5th trophy at Rome?
Clearly, there’s still some way to go before Djoko can be back to his winning ways. There’s no short cuts; he has to put in the efforts to train and to get back his consistency, his precision in his ground strokes and his serves and returns; they’re just not there consistently to help win him title(s).
Agree with your second paragraph rc.
he doesn’t have to beat Rafa to be back, but will just continue to show he’s back by having a deep run before they meet. Which I predict they will.
Commies who suggested he was back, wouldn’t necessarily consider the loss in the final as proof he wasn’t back.
Some may think it means he’s not back. However I believe he’s already back to his level to be the 1-2 favourite in slams/tournaments going forward, and not just the No. 1 favourite because fedal are also back whereas during his 2015-16 run, they were not both back at the same time.
#NoleIsBack
#RafaIsBack
#FedIsBack
#MuzzaAWOL
I add to my post AT 4:37 PM….
Nole never had to fight his way through three matches in a row including warm ups, cool downs and media commitments in just over 24 hrs against very good players during his 2015-16 run the way he did in Rome so it is speculative to say he could have done any better.
Nvertheless, I have to see more of Nole before I will agree you that he’s back, Hawks.
I need more time and need to SEE more from him!!
I can already see it (like for Fed and Rafa). I wasn’t surprised many lower ranked players took him out before, but I’d be quite surprised to see it happen in Paris (other than Rafa).
#HawkstradamusIsBack
RC, Agut wasn’t playing his best tennis until the last few games, when he decided to be offensive, hit some FH or BH DTL to get a few winners. However, by then Agut looked defeated(stupid to engage in long rallies with Djoko all day) and couldn’t do much to turn the match around.
I agree on your take about Delpo. He wasn’t that match fit, not playing much on clay and I suspect that Dimi match had taken a lot out of him. He still had to beat Edmund before meeting Djoko. It’s obvious to me looking at Delpo, that he was physically spent during his match with Djoko; Djoko just had to keep the ball in play and then waited for Delpo’s errors.
Djoko came out all guns blazing vs Thiem, knowing he himself was at a disadvantage when Thiem had more time to rest before the SF. To me Djoko played his best match of the tournament in that SF. It’s strange that he couldn’t sustain that level or at least played close to that level, in the final.
Djoko used to have problems against big hitters the likes of Stan and Delpo, and now we have Thiem and Zverev. Thiem plays like Stan, and Zverev as we have seen in the Rome final what he’s capable of doing, I doubt Thiem would play the same way (as in the Rome SF) the next time they meet.
It’s very strange that Novak couldn’t come close to his SF level in the final. And getting spitting mad at himself did nothing to help. I’m not buying that he was tired. He couldn’t pull it together to make it close.
Credit to Zverev for playing so well in his first masters final.
If I couldn’t buy into him being tired (at least benefit of the doubt), then I’d find it strange too.
I find he needs to show anger/emotion. Any time he plays fed and is emotionally calm, without showing emotion (incl. some anger), he usually loses. Wow, they haven’t played each other in 15 months.
But it is a balance no doubt.
And Zverev. So cool to be able to execute like that in his first Masters final. I just hope he doesn’t get a big head (as there have been signs before). I could be a big fan down the road.
rc,
I think the key was consistency with Novak in the last few years. That is missing now. I don’t presume to know how he will do at RG. He could make a deep run. That would be an indication that he may be back. Time will tell.
I agree that something is still off with him. I think it may be mental. Paul Annacone was the one tennis channel commentator who made it a point if saying that Novak was back – for the match with Thiem. He did not engage in the hyperbole of the others. He observed at either Madrid or Rome in the early rounds that Novak could produce some great tennis, but that errors were coming st the crucial moments of matches now. It used to be the opposite. He seems to think it’s mental.
I absolutely agree that just because Novak lost to Stan in the RG final in 2015, did not mean he wasn’t back. Stan simply played the match of his life to win that match.
Again, just to be perfectly clear, s player does not have to win titles all the time. That’s not possible. But Novak was in his second final this year and that is nowhere near what he was doing the last few years. I am not sure that he will dominate in the way that he did. But that does not preclude him coming back to his best.
Things have changed with the young guys stepping up and being in contention. Kyrgios, Thiem, Goffin and Zverev have all made some noise this year.
I maintain that Novak is still on the right track. RG will tell us more
rc,
I appreciate your approach when it comes to the question of whether Novak is back. I dot think he’s there yet. Just my opinion from a lifetime of watching this sport. I still think that RG will tell us more. A slam is where the rubber meets the road. A possible seven best of five set matches is the biggest test.
I need to see more from him before I can say he is really back.
Your attitude is great, considering that you obviously want him to be back to his best.
I don’t think he’s there yet.*
Mary raised the pesky PED question in connection with a certain player’s recent success. While I think it’s an extremely double edged and poisoned sword to raise these suspicions in connection with a player we don’t like and who has beaten our favorite player, I think it’s valid to be concerned about the use of PED’s in tennis. I prefer to look at the broad picture and in my opinion no player is above suspicion, since a lot of money and prestige are at stake for players and burocrats alike, and the ITF’s anti-doping program is clearly less than adequate, although it certainly improved in the last few years with more out-of-competition tests and the introduction of the biological passport.
I came across a great article of the well known sports journalist Bill Simmons. It’s well worth the lenghthy read because it doesn’t just cover the PED problem. It raises the question how sports journalists should ideally deal with their privately harbored concerns. And in the end he makes a great check list of what should legitimately raise our red flags even in the absence of hard proof:
http://www.grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question
The article doesn’t specifically mention tennis. But while tennis might sport a better anti-doping program than baseball or football, the fundamental questions are still valid. A tennis match can’t be won with strength, endurance and fast recovery alone. Specific skills and mental attitude play a huge part. But it’s also true that skills and mental attitude can be used much more efficiently if there’s a solid base of strength and endurance and if recovery time is shortened. And especially amongst the top players, where the margins are small, it might make all the difference.
You can also find a great BBC documentary from 2015 by the investigative reporter Mark Daly (search Youtube for “Mark Daly Catch Me If You Can BBC Documentary”). For a part of his investigation he demonstrates practically how microdosing with EPO does significantly improve his personal triathlon training results but how he never triggers a positive test. He even manages to beat the highly recommended biological passport. It’s very disheartening. And microdosing can be done with most useful illegal substances. So, unfortunately we can’t argue that tennis must be relatively clean just because it manages to catch only criminally negligent players like Sharapova or criminally stupid guys like Cilic, who don’t bother to look up the new list of banned substances or who send their mother to the pharmacy and don’t bother to check if she actually bought the correct pills. Don’t get me wrong, both deserved their bans, but I believe their explanations. While they undoubtedly meant to enhance their performance with what they believed to be legal medication – if they had really intended to enhance their performance by illigal means, they could’ve easily avoided to get caught with smarter timing and dosing. Therefore I really hate the hypocrisy surrounding Sharapova’s comeback although I’m not at all a fan. She deserved her ban because she’s responsible for what enters her body. Stupidity doesn’t protect from punishment. But who knows who else has been taking Meldonium as long as it was still leagal, and has simpy been a bit smarter than Sharapova? And ironically the experts aren’t even sure if Meldonium really acts as a performance enhancer. It might well act more as a placebo.
It’s far more concerning that the ITF never managed to catch a player who did hardcore doping with EPO and HGH. That are the big guns of the seasoned doper and there’s no reason to believe that it isn’t used by at least some tennis players, too. Hasn’t the infamous Wayne Osednik been caught with HGH vials? I wonder what he planned to do with them. It’s highly unlikely that he needed the sustance for his phd thesis or that he was really an investigative reporter like Daly 😉
Exactly, littlefoot. Elsewhere I have made a post about use of PEDs which are not yet in the banned list. As for long time favorites like blood and HGH ( they have been around in tennis at least from the 90s), it is extremely difficult to detect them because they are substances naturally found in the body. Apparently bio passport after initially causing concern to cyclists is no longer of concern as they have found a way. As for HGH, there is a ridiculously short window of time in which doping can be detected. So anyone could be doping.
Littlefoot, the most important part of your post comes at the beginning. “Extremely double-edged and poisoned sword to raise these suspicions in connection with a player we don’t like and who has beaten our favorite player”.
You get it, unlike Mary.
As to the more general issue of PEDs in tennis, of course there are plenty of reasons to be concerned. Again, these are general, not affecting any specific player until hard evidence is produced.
I think Mary gets it just fine Joe.
I think Mary is doing it to make a point. Like now the shoe is on the other foot for so much BS constantly directed towards Nadal throughout his career re doping accusations for beating THEIR favourite player.
I don’t see any long standing web sites with the sole purpose of accusing Federer of doping, or government officials appearing on TV accusing Federer of doping or commercials on television implying Federer dopes. Yet all happened to Rafa, with zero proof or evidence.
Check out tennis has a doping problem web site and get back to me.
Mary’s comments pale in comparison.
Jesus, I just googled it and there is so much hate directed towards Rafa and accusations of doping dor the sole reason of repeatedly beating their favourite player, Nadal’s name not even in the search.
So many sites mostly aimed at accusing Rafa, a few on Serena.
You have to specifically search for federer doping for anything to show up but this was an interesting read….
“Whether it’s Federer, Nadal, Ferrer, Djokovic and his ‘gluten free diet’, Murray and his full body transformation during an off-season or Wawrinka who suddenly had endless stamina at the age of 28, it doesn’t matter, they are all at it if you ask me. And given the fact that over the course of 2002 and 2003 no less than sixty players had nandrolone, an anabolic steroid, in their system, it’s likely to be more widespread than many of you would think. ”
http://tennispurist.blogspot.ca/2017/04/the-curious-case-of-roger-federer.html
The writer points out that established tennis magazines have no problem accusing Rafa…..
http://www.tennisnow.com/News/Doping,-Tennis,-Nadal—Connection-.aspx
But are all quiet otherwise.
It’s a double standard.
Let’s just get clear on who believes what. Me first: I don’t believe that either Nadal or Federer are doping. I am aware of accusations, but not aware of any hard evidence to support the accusation that either one of the whose players use PEDs.
Mary, are I right in thinking you *do* believe that Federer is doping, but don’t believe Nadal is?
Hawk: do you believe that Federer is doping? Rafa?
If Mary’s point is supposed to be that there are (unfairly) many more accusations of doping against Rafa than Federer, I agree. If the point is supposed to somehow be that one group of unsupported accusations should be “counter-balanced” by another, well, I think that’s just stupid. What we should all be saying is that none of these accusations are worth considering seriously until hard evidence is produced.
What did you think about Lance Armstrong winning the Tour de France at almost 34 before he was proven guilty Joe?
I was always very suspicious of him winning so easily in his 30s.
Joe’s argument is based on a fallacy called the fallacy of ignorance. Just because there is no hard evidence proving Fed is doping, Joe assumes that Fed is not doping. But circumstantial evidence definitely strongly suggests Fed is doping. Without any hard evidence a sports official in France had no problem in blithely stating that it is well known that Rafa was sitting out the season because of doping. However I am yet to find anyone announcing on tv through interviews or ads that Fed is doping despite the fact that he has the exact profile physical and performance wise of a doper. Double standards as hawkeye has already pointed out.
Mary, you do not understand the argument from ignorance, which requires the claim that something *must* be true because no one has produced contrary evidence. I do not claim that it must be true that Federer is not doping (that is, I recognize that he may be).
Rather, I think that the burden of proof is on anyone who believes the contrary to show it. Not unlike the various standards of evidence that operate in the law, one is presumed to be innocent until “proven” guilty. That’s all my position amounts to, and it’s perfectly reasonable.
Unlike yours.
When circumstantial evidence suggests Fed is doping, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he is not doping. A man at 35 not only wins AO but also IW and Miami. He may even be year end #1 if he keeps up this unnatural dominance. The amazing thing is journalists are keeping mum instead of doing some investigation.
What is the circumstantial evidence? That he won those three tournaments at 35? Sorry, not enough to shift the burden of proof; not even close. Federer has had far too much success recently, coming very close to winning slams (and actually winning masters) for his 2017 record to count as evidence.
Now, if Tommy Haas had done that this year, I agree it might be a different story.
And even an ESPN article implying a 26/27 year old in-his-prime Rafa in 2013 but nothing but praise and fawning from the main stream federazzi media about a 35/36 year old Fed in 2017.
“The greatest Spanish pro, Rafael Nadal, has fought off doping allegations for years while his eight-month absence grows more curious.”
http://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/8910329/are-tennis-players-hiding-answers-increased-ped-questions-espn-magazine
No surprise that the infamous Tennis Has A Steroid Problem historically directing hate and accusations at Nadal has coincidentally decided to shut down after a 35 yr old Fed won Australia. Even they could see their own double standard.
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.ca/2017/01/checking-out.html
Double standards are everywhere.
How do you say not even close. It is definitely circumstantial evidence. I am sure Fed is doping but without the tools to investigate, I cannot produce the “hard” evidence you demand. I don’t believe in fairy tales or Santa Claus. A 35 year old man sweeps the hard court season….
You’re “sure” Fed is doping? Right.
More like you desperately want to believe he’s doping because he beat your guy.
What did you think about Lance Armstrong winning the Tour de France at almost 34 before he was proven guilty Joe?
I was always very suspicious of him winning so easily in his 30s.
I don’t follow cycling, so never had any informed opinion. Can’t remember whether he admitted to having been doping pretty much from the beginning.
Again, I’m not denying that performance alone could count as circumstantial evidence (e.g. Tommy Haas winning the 3 tournaments Fed won this year). But the performance would have to be a significant outlier in several respects (previous track record, age, degree of improvement etc.).
I don’t follow cycling either, but it was hard to miss if you were a casual watcher of Sports Center or followed any sports section.
So even though there was no hard evidence, it was obvious to many, even the casual fan, that it was likely he was doping.
And he worked extremely hard with God given talent.
But one does not exclude the other.
If indeed it can be deemed good circumstantial evidence, I don’t think it has much probative value.
One can claim Federer is doping, and the onus is on someone else to prove that he isn’t, because ‘he’s old and he’s winning titles and his body isn’t inconsistent with a certain drug/hormone‘? Following that reasoning consistently would mean presuming that virtually any older successful tennis player was guilty of doping (“somebody investigate how that Rosewall bastard made a GS final at age 39!”). The fact that he’s one of the greatest players of all-time is also probably relevant, as is the reduced schedule/extended layoff, his general career longevity, and the drop off from Novak – the one guy who has consistently prevented Fed from clinching titles in the last few years.
Rafa might well come close to sweeping the clay court season at age ~31, after an untold number of injury setbacks through his career that probably would’ve ended a lesser mortal. He might even do it again in future year(s), he is more than good enough. Would it then be fair to presumptively label him a doper, on virtually that basis alone? No, it definitely would not. It’s not right that those sorts of accusations have been leveled against him without evidence being produced in numerous instances. It has not been fair to his fans, and especially not to him & his team.
I do think tennis fans should indeed recognise that doping is rife across many sports, that the incentives can be big, that the dopers are one step ahead of the regulators, and that neither the game nor its champion players are at all immune. But that doesn’t mean it’s fair to assert that a player is doping when the totality of direct and circumstantial evidence is very little (or next to nothing), nor does it remove the need to back-up such potentially damaging claims. Much as one might, understandably, want to get back at certain people/commentators by way of tit-for-tat claims for all the unfair, baseless accusations, it’s probably something to avoid, in any circumstance.
What new accusations can anyone make against Rafa? You guys have been making it since he was 19. What now seems obvious in hindsight is that this was done to deflect suspicion from Fed. Hence the attempt to project the doper as a man with big muscles. The fact of the matter is, like the cyclists, the typical doping tennis athlete has the physique of Fed. So chances are that Fed has ben doping from 2003. But one thing is certain. He is defintely doping now. To sweep the hardcourt season at age 35 proves it.
I’ve never made any accusations against Rafa. I’m certainly not in favour of making them now – I would’ve thought that was clear from what I just said. I suppose such is the state of affairs in tennis-fandom, that sometimes certain things can only be viewed from dogmatic, partisan battle-lines.
“But one thing is certain. He is defintely doping now. To sweep the hardcourt season at age 35 proves it.”
All I can say there is, for reasons outlined in my other post, that sort of logic leaves a lot to be desired.
Have you heard of probability? All our decisions are made by choosing the most probable. The most probable explanation for Fed’s performance is doping. Unless you prove otherwise, that remains the common sense explanation. Logic is impeccable.
I have heard of probability, yes. Have you heard of the ‘appeal to probability’ logical fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability)? Drawing conclusions from probability is often good but it isn’t always as straightforward as it would seem; here’s a page explaining some of the other fallacies relating to probability & issues with interpretation – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Probability_interpretations.
“All our decisions are made by choosing the most probable”
See above. But to use a specific example that demonstrates a potential flaw in that type of reasoning when taken in the context of doping:
Hypothetically, suppose it was somehow known incontrovertibly that 99.9% of the top 1000 ranked men’s tennis players were doping, but not which ones specifically. One might say that this piece of ‘evidence’ is highly relevant for a particular case in which a doping body is making a finding as to a specific player’s guilt. But actually, it isn’t, because it does not rationally affect (directly or indirectly) the assessment of the existence of the fact in issue in the proceeding – whether Federer (or whichever SPECIFIC player it is) doped. If that sounds kinda complicated or counter-intuitive, well, it’s because issues around probability, evidence and fact-finding in individual cases sometimes are. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutor%27s_fallacy#Possible_examples_of_fallacious_defense_arguments; and http://professoralexstein.com/images/Evidence_Probability_BOP.pdf – this paragraph starting on p. 561 is of particular relevance to a conclusion that an athlete is doping, for example:
“Courts generally do not use mathematical probability in applying the burden of proof doctrine. Importantly, the prevalent academic opinion approves this practice: Most evidence scholars believe that adjudicative factfinding is fundamentally incompatible with mathematical probability. Mathematical probability sometimes allows policymakers to evaluate the overall performance of a rule or a set of rules and macromanage the legal system as a whole. Carrying this tool to the process of determining individual facts is broadly considered a bad idea.”
But that really all only becomes important to the ‘Fed & doping’ idea if there actually is some particular probability or piece of evidence, and on that I refer to my earlier post.
Wrong again, Mary.
The fact that you repeat (ad nauseum) “Doping is the most probable explanation for Fed’s recent success” doesn’t make it so. The truth of that sentence has to be *shown,* see? But since you’ve already admitted you have no hard evidence to show it, you’re reduced to making the same pathetic allegation over and over. Worse, you claim to be “sure” of it.
Santa Clause, indeed.
TWD: “I suppose such is the state of affairs in tennis-fandom, that sometimes certain things can only be viewed from dogmatic, partisan battle-lines.”
Very well said. From all the vitriol one would think the topic was something truly important like the Israel-Palestinian conflict -or whether Led Zeppelin or the Who was the better live band.
The Who obviously.
“The Who obviously”
Agreed. But for any doubters:
https://vimeo.com/204160661
Sweeping the hard court season’Proves it’??!! Lol
vr,
It just gets curiouser and curiouser.
Poor Joe Smith merely insulting me or claiming that doping is not the most probable explanation doesn’t alter anything. Till you provide evidence to the contrary, the most probable explanation stands.
As for some of the Rafa fans here who never raised a finger to defend Rafa but are rushing to attack me to defend Fed, all I can say is that they and their Echo deserve pity for being so needy for approval. Incidentally nothing is getting curioser and curioser. Bad logic, my dear resident Echo. If you want to back up your claim, show what was curious and what made it curioser.
Where’s the insult, Mary? Find one instance where I ever said something insulting about you, as opposed to what you’ve said (e.g. you said something stupid or pathetic, namely your baseless allegations against Federer).
Again, to be perfectly clear, I think Fed fans who bash Rafa for doping for no good reason (e.g. his muscles) are saying stupid and pathetic things as well.
Wow this Willow poster on TX gets it…
Willow Says:
In 2013 people said Rafas amazing run was suspicious, and questions were also raised about Novaks amazing run in 2011 that came from nowhere, yet nobodies said a word about Federer and raised an eyebrow this year, not that im not saying anyone of the players could be up to no good, just hate the double standards that go around these forums ….
Willow Says:
I Think my post was merely objective, same was said about Rafa and Novak when they were having their amazing years, yet god forbid anything is said about Federer, and why shouldnt posters discuss a possible grey area, unfortunatly its the world we live in, and BTW i dont hate Federer, what i hate is double standards ….
But then after being attached by fedfans, Willow brings up the dreaded GOAT debate naming Roger as GOAT….
Willow Says:
Oh i give up, im not bringing down anybody, i think Federes an amazing player the best ever, if ive said it once ive said it a million, zillion, trillion bloomin times, i just think when one player gets suspected of wrong doings, so should everyone
Read more….
So How Is Roger Federer Doing It?
by Sean Randall | April 8th, 2017, 3:46 pm
http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2017-04-08/25788.php
OK, as I’ve said I agree about the double standards. Are you going to answer my questions? Do you think either Rafa or Fed is doping?
I believe 100 percent that it is relatively easy to get away with given testing standards today.
I would be disappointed but not shocked if any of the Top Four tested positive.
Like Willow, I think Fed is the current GOAT (by a hair IMO) and there is a double standard that gives him a free ride compared to Rafa and Djoko.
I certainly think Fed is doping. He is 35 year old for God’s sake. It took a 28 year old Rafa 2 years to start playing well again but a 35 year old Federer comes back from a 6 month lay off and wins the three biggest titles on the trot?
Admittedly more suspicious than anything else I’ve seen from the other Top 4.
That article made some strong points.
But you’ll never hear it in the main stream media the way they’ve accused Rafa.
By omission, I take it you don’t think either of them is doping, though you wouldn’t be shocked if they were.
My sentiments exactly.
I have a different take than all three of you. I believe neither of them has ever doped. The least I can do as a fan of this sport if to come out in favor of those who have ascended the sport to new heights. I, as a tennis fan, owe a lot to not only Rafa but also Federer. I am Rafanatic but respect Federer.
To me it feels really really unfair to attribute the success they have had to doping! I can’t even imagine the amount of effort these two have put in their careers and here we are , making theories about PED.
I would be extremely shocked if anything surfaces like this regarding Fedal. I strongly believe it is not the case.
Yes, this is my personal opinion and I feel strongly about it.
Btw, if Rod laver could win a calendar slam at 31 , playing 32 tournaments and playing about 125 matches (winning about 87%), why can’t Federer and Nadal win slams in their 30s?
These athletes are far better conditioned and the training regimes, diets, facilities and everything is 50 times better now.
Vamos, the main reason I wouldn’t be shocked is simply that so many professional athletes have been shown to use PEDs. Although I feel similar to you about many of the things you say, I think we should admit, all of us, that none of us really *know* any of these people (unless, of course, one of us actually does). In general, I think the revelation that a top athlete has used PEDs is about as shocking as the revelation that a rock star cheated on his girlfriend with a bunch of groupies on tour.
One thing we do know about top athletes is that they are not like most of the rest of us. They are extremely competitive, driven, and focused on one thing. And, being good at that one thing makes them fabulously rich and famous. Since the margins are so small and the rewards so huge, this makes the incentive to do anything to gain a competitive advantage enormous.
Again, we agree in that I believe that they have never doped either.
Federer is 35, not 31. The benefit of better conditioning, diets facilities is available to all and the top 20 definitely have enough money to afford the best. So all things being equal, the 35 year old is still at a disadvantage because of his age unless he is taking supplements to make up for the fall in HGH.Science has still not discovered a way of stopping the natural fall of HGH which reaches significant levels by 35. So there are clinics set up to provide this fountain of youth ( HGH) to celebrities and aging athletes.
@Joe Smith,
I don’t know them on a personal level , that’s true. What I am trying to say is, I don’t think they deserve my suspicion of doping when clearly I have seen them as role models of hard work, dedication and humility. I as a fan owe to these champions and this is the least I can do to respect them for that. Why should I create theories about PEDs when there is not an iota of evidence. If they were drug cheats, they would have done it earlier even and Fed wouldn’t have waited to get 34 or 35!
Anyway, I am going to put forward why I think they are not dopers. I just expressed my personal view that these two have never doped. I find it distasteful to attribute their success to something which is pure conjecture. You want the only FACT is? they have worked extremely hard and they are God gifted talents 🙂
Vamos: Fair enough, and well said!
@Mary, also remember that Laver played 32 tournaments at 31!! Fedal were playing literally half of this even in their heyday! And, we are talking about an athlete from the 60s!
1. Top 20 don’t have the money to afford everything
2. It is totally logical that despite having access to all those facilities, others are still not able to match Fedal and Djokovic. The reason is that they are either not as disciplined or patient or committed or mentally as strong or are simply not talented enough. Tennis is not sprinting! Since when has physical strength (while quite important) become the most important factor?
I see top 20 players expressing their shock about how intense Nadal’s practice sessions are and how much effort he puts in. Countless times I’ve read players talking about how it’s kind of impossible to match Rafa’s intensity in practice.
So, I believe these top athletes have far more factors working for them that separate them from the field.
VR, the problem is not whether they can or not, the problem is when it comes to Fed, they believe he can, even at 35; but when it comes to Rafa, even at 27, they think he can’t! Such is the double standard. Even some or many of the Djoko fans believe that Rafa is/was doping, just because Rafa used to beat Djoko from the very beginning, from 2006-2010, and they esp couldn’t forgive Rafa for beating Djoko in that epic Madrid SF of 2009 that caused Djoko to be in tears afterwards, not forgetting that Olympics 2008 SF too. And yet when it comes to Djoko and his sudden surge in 2011 and onwards, they assumed its all due to Djoko’s talent; strange that Djoko’s talent suddenly could overcome a ‘doping’ Nadal when in the past he couldn’t!
From the very beginning they’d been accusing Rafa of doping, when he shot to prominence on clay and beating Fed often on that surface. They directed their accusations at Rafa based on his physique too.
I’m glad now they have shit on their faces when they couldn’t explain why a 35 yo Fed after a six month breaks could win the big prizes and yet a 27 yo when doing the same was being suspected of doping. They are busy keeping silent about Fed and doping, and hoping no one would raise this subject; and by doing so, they let the world know what kind of hypocrites they are.
Thank you Fed, whether you’re doping or not, for putting all your fanatical supporters, be it your fans, the media or anyone else, into their place and keep them silent and stop the doping accusations of Fed’s main rivals, at least for the time being.
Well said Lucky.
As I said, the long standing web site Tennis Has A Steroid Problem (THASP) after years of accusing Rafa, suddenly decided to “move on” after 35 year old Fed won Australia.
Lance Armstrong at almost 34 won the Tour de France and he worked extremely hard and had God given talent too.
@Luckystar, Agreed! double standards galore. There are fans of all three of them who resort to doping accusations when their player is up against the wall. It has been an epic egg-on-face situation for those Fed fanatics who used to accuse Rafa of doping. They should really be ashamed now. No doubts!
yeah PED also enabled Fed to evolve his strategies and start going for more topspin backhand returns lol
oh so they closed the tennishasasteroidproblem site. Good news. It was such a hate filled site. Ruan’s site too was meant for hating Rafa and accusing him of doping. One fan said, Fed looks so honest, you know he is clean. And looking at Rafa, they saw a “dirty pig”. It was so awful. After some time, Ruan decided to stop the doping accusations and then he finally became a Djokovic fan. Weird. What I find odd is that Rafa fans rarely defended their hero. If they claimed Fed was doping in retaliation, they were immediately banned, even on tennistalk. But Cheryl had no problem with fans claiming Rafa was doping. She refused even to delete one such accusation claiming it was just a joke! Even more weird!!!
Ruan has another site now…
Federer’s Remarkable 2017 Run
Posted on April 5, 2017 by Ru-an | 19 Comments
http://theultimatetennisblog.com/federers-remarkable-2017-run/
Ruan says, “It sure is tempting to believe that given such a remarkable and peRFect script. When Federer was losing to Djokovic and others in slams in the last few years Fedfans always used the excuse of his lack of stamina due to age.
What happened to that narrative after Federer won three five-set matches to win the Australian Open or to complete the Indian Wells/Miami double spanning three weeks which included two brutal three-set matches in Miami’s oppressive heat?
Certainly, a case for doping can be made in this situation and the behavior of Fedfans provide even more incentive for it. But since I am unbiased and objective(unlike them) I believe in innocent until proven guilty.
As far as I’m concerned if one is doping then it is very likely that all of them are doping in which case it evens out. I just don’t appreciate hypocrisy where Nadal or Djokovic is singled out but the possibility that Saint Federer is doping is entirely out of the question.
I used to accuse Nadal myself as a Federer fan when I still believed Federer represented good and Nadal evil, but I overcame my fanaticism. The world is not that black and white. I think it’s immature to worship one player like a god and vilify the other like he is the devil.”
And the site is not closed, they’ve just decided it’s time to stop updating the site….
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.ca/
oh, so Ruan has become objective? As for the steroidproblem site, no coincidence that they stopped updating when Fed won AO at 35.
I wouldn’t say he’s more objective at all.
I respected him more when he was more open about his hate.
He just tries to hide it now, but it’s still obvious. He said Rafa’s loss to Thiem was suspicious and he suspected Rafa was trying to avoid a rematch with Nole. So he still puts Rafa down continuously, just less obviously open about calling him the devil and Federer God (actually his words, not mine).
Doping in sports won’t go away, it will only get more creative and sophisticated or fall under different catagories and names. And it might be something that takes a long time, if ever to be deemed illegal.
I’d be surprised if the biggest stars in any sport didn’t try a number of “training programs and procdures” over the course of their careers.
But I’m a cycling fan so I lean toward a cynical view of otherworldly and unbelievable performances.
My imagination is just that – imagination. I’ll say no more about it! 😀
Just forget it.
But despite all that, 35 is 35 when natural HGH levels are signifantly lower. No matter how you spin it, you cannot get away from that. Federer is not God, he is human, subject to natural aging. There are some things which no amount of conditioning can stop and fall of HGH level is one of them, as inevitable and relentless as death but unlike death, it is on a strict timeline.
I’m thinking implanted nano-biochips to signal the release of a variety of activities in humans.
RC, yes, there are cheaters and ‘bad people’ in every field out there and sports is no exception. But, human beings (esp when they are as talented as Fedal) are capable of pulling off miracles too.
What else can describe Connor’s 1991 US Open Run? haha.
VR, You have a pure heart and mind! I choose to enjoy the performances and not let my suspicious imagination interfere– I leave it to those much smarter than I am to engineer the species to greater heights. No pun intended lol
Well who did Connors beat?
And laver was great, but the game was very different from today.
My only contribution to this discussion is to say that I agree with vr. I see it very much the way he does and since he expressed it so well, there is not much for me to add.
I also think that Rafa has been in fairly targeted and finally he did something about it and filed a lawsuit. But that does not mean that I have to respond in kind when it comes to Fed.
Maybe I am not cynical because I don’t watch sports like cycling. But I believe in giving Fed and Rafa the benefit of the doubt.
It should read that I believe Rafa has been unfairly targeted!*
Nny
I’ll keep it to myself!
rc,
No you don’t have to keep it to yourself! Not at all! I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject. I respect your point of view. Since you watch cycling, where doping has been rampant, you have a perspective that wound be worth sharing!
Please speak up! I am willing to hear you out!
?
Nny
Oh, no, if we were in a bar having a bottle of bubbly maybe, with your permission I’d let loose some of my wild ideas but we’d end up laughing…
Anyway, I decided it’s best to be a believer on the topic of tennis heros.
rc,
I hear you! That sounds like it would be fun!
Even I know all about cycling. You can’t escape it even if you never watched the sport.
I will respect your wishes since we are not in a bar! I think we all want to believe in heroes!
?
Me too rc!!!!
MA
I think that the upcoming GS is, as usual, increasing tensions. Last FO I had to part ways with other Novak fans, maybe you remember?
This year is kind of a big deal with la Decima so close. Speaking for myself, I really want this for Rafa. But last year I was desperate for Nole to get FO. It was crazy.
Anyway Vamos Rafa, Insyaallah ♡
Hey rc!!…First of all..I Miss U!!Crazy crazy lots!!hehe…and yeah rc,i still remember…It always pains me to see u be treated like that…But,what the heck..forget about them rc!
And thank u for your endless support for Rafa and Nny and VR are right!….You’re not only have a BIG heart but also one truly amazing and awesome human being rc!!Wooohooo!!
Thanks AM. And belated thanks to Nny and VR.
It’s nice to have the kind words 🙂
Thanks NNY, cheers!
vr,
You are welcome! I think you said it so very well and I appreciate you bringing up my childhood idol Rod Laver!
I do think that Lucky did express the anger and outrage that Rafa fans have felt over the years as he has been treated so badly. She made a good point about the Fed fans ha ing to keep their mouths shut now and not deal with it coming their way. Rafa has been hard done by throughout the years. I don’t know hiw he has managed to handle it so well. Just a class act!
Ha ha, I’m enjoying this present moment, when both Fed and Rafa are having their revivals, and yet the Fed fanatics couldn’t accuse Rafa of anything, as their dear Fed is having even better results than Rafa so far this season (with a slam in hand), and beating Rafa thrice. They certainly can’t accuse Rafa of doping now, when Fed himself at 35 could do amazing things!
I’m so glad they got ‘silenced’ by non other than their very own saint fav player. Some, like the owner of that ‘tennis has a steroid problem’ blog finally get some enlightenment and feeling repentant? or remorseful? is/are now singing a different tune!
Again, thank you Fed, you do ‘wonders’! Not forgetting Fed’s MTOs during the AO, that got the Fed fanatic supporters busily defending him for taking his MTOs, when in the past the same people were accusing others of faking injuries to take their MTOs! Karma?
It is not karma. it is double standard. Fed also took a bathroom break at some AO as a strategy. But Fed fans, like Joe Smith here, complain about everything they possibly can about Rafa but choose to become deaf, dumb and blind where Fed is concerned and never complain. If somebody else points it out, they will falsely claim they never noticed it, they do not follow Fed obsessively, Rafa fandom is a cult etc. So what Joe Smith and his ilk are claiming is they too obsessively follow Rafa but not Fed so they complain only about Rafa! Ha ha
#Hilarious
Haha, yes, hilarious Mary.
Not really.
A double standard (in context) is applying one standard to one player but not to others. Here’s a challenge: try to find one instance of where I’ve done that on this site. Failing to mention something in the first instance, but then readily accepting it when it’s pointed out (e.g. condemning Federer for bullying tactics similar to those Rafa has employed; failing to concede a point based on a bad call, etc.) doesn’t count.
I would never say that all Rafa fans are cultish. Some are, some aren’t -no different from Fed fans. IMO, you exhibit a few cultish traits, chief of which is taking personally any criticism of Rafa, and attacking personally anyone who criticizes him in any way. To that I would add your apparent jealous hatred of Federer, marked by your willingness to attack him on grounds that even you don’t believe, simply because other deluded Fed fans attack your idol on similarly misguided grounds.
Hawkeye , i dont know if you know, but im Willow on TX, i was cut to ribbons on that forum by a couple of the Federer fans which i wont name, simply because i brought up the possibility that he could be doping, as i said there i hate the double standards that fans have, when it comes to their favorites, simply because they are their favorites ….