Federer downs Nadal for seventh Basel title

November 1, 2015 Ricky Match recaps 344

Roger Federer beat Rafael Nadal for the first time in their last six meetings and in doing so defended his Swiss Indoors Basel title. Federer prevailed 6-3, 5-7, 6-3 after two hours and two minutes for his seventh Basel triumph.

With a 10-23 lifetime record against his nemesis and playing at home in Switzerland for the first time in the rivalry’s illustrious history, Federer needed a win in the worst way. He came out playing like it, breaking in the fifth game and at love in the ninth game to seize set one in style. The 34-year-old consolidated his initial break with some especially impressive stuff on a break point at 3-2.

Federer saves break point with an amazing forehand pass:
[tweet https://twitter.com/TennisTV/status/660822054137176064]

Nadal finally earned a break of his own at 5-5 in the second. It proved to be enough for the third-seeded Spaniard to force a decider, as he promptly delivered a love hold one game later.

Much to the delight of the pro-Federer crowd, the 17-time Grand Slam champion regained control in set three. Despite missing a break chance at 2-1, he struck decisively at 4-3. Nadal set a backhand well long on break point before Federer survived a deuce game at 5-3 to clinch victory.

The top seed used his SABR tactic three times, succeeding only once.

Federer’s first SABR attempt ends badly:

Highlights:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvwGL-XUwA]

“My fourth time here, finally I get to the finals–so I’m very happy for that,” Nadal said during the trophy ceremony. “Very emotional week; all the matches…a lot of fight. I believe that it’s been a very important week for me, for this year and for the future.”

Both players will now head to the Paris Masters for the last tournament of the proverbial regular season (before the eight-man World Tour Finals). Federer awaits either Andreas Seppi or Pablo Cuevas, while Nadal could open against Lukas Rosol.

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344 Comments on Federer downs Nadal for seventh Basel title

  4. As I said, congrats to me for being one of the few here to actually pick the heavy favourite (3.5) to win. On an indoor court. Against a guy who he was 4-1 and who’s on record for not liking indoors and is currently trying to regain his form. Like that was difficult.

    Perhaps the biggest (and encouraging) sign is that it was by far the second best indoor match (next to the one he won) he’s ever played against Fed.

    It’s indoors people. A Fed loss indoors is extremely R.A.R.E. to any player not named Djokovic.

    Hope our betting friend took Ricky’s advice and didn’t lose too much.

    As Rafa said, making finals and losing to one of the best on Fed’s favourite surfrace and on Rafa’s least is not a disappointing week for him.

    So much for anywhere anytime. Federer is the Indoor GOAT.

    This result (other than Rafa playing his best match in months and taking a set in return) was really no surprise at all.

    (Please forgive any typos or grammatical errors.) 😉

    Reply

      • I think the exact words were “at this point it his hard to like his chances in this particular matchup under any circumstances” even though Roger was a heavy betting favourite so many including me were able to imagine it just fine.

        #DontYou?

        Reply

    • hawkeye,

      You did not get it right because you said two sets and it wouldn’t be competitive. NID! Not true! This was a real match and Rafa had his chances. it turned on a few shots. So I wouldn’t get too carried away with giving yourself too many pats on the back. I am okay with my prediction even though Rafa didn’t win in three sets. I do remember saying that there was no way Rafa was going to lose in two sets! So I was right! 🙂

      Reply

  6. Exactly. Nobody thought it was surprising that Fed won, so what a missed chance by Rafa, having come so close (and Fed wasnt at his best).

    Fed could lose indoors – he lost to Delpo twice at Basel in finals.

    Reply

    • Yes but one of those came in 2013 which was a terrible year for Roger and Del po has bigger serve than Rafa that can earn him more free points on this surface. I’m pretty sure Del Po spanked Rafa the next week too in Paris and that was indoors as well and when Rafa was having amazing year in 2013.

      Reply

      • No, that was in Shanghai. Rafa was beaten by Ferrer at Paris that year.

        I ‘forgive’ Rafa for not playing well in the Asian and indoor swing in 2013 after the exploits he had that year. I mean he lost in straight sets to Ferrer at Paris Masters, Delpo at Shanghai and Novak at Beijing and WTF! He was shaky all tournament, at Beijing and WTF, not playing that well at Shanghai and Paris too that year.

        Its not only with a big serve that you could beat Fed at Basel! Rafa not having a big serve was still close to beating Fed here if not for him faltering in his last service game. Rafa is Fed’s nemesis, he has a way of dealing with Fed that all other players, including Delpo and Novak, couldnt. Novak in 2009 wasnt serving big yet he still was able to beat Fed at Basel.

        Reply

      • Yeah but he did actually win last two meetings indoors against Novak but both were in Dubai which is like the fastest hard court I think so that makes sense fed won there.

        Reply

      • Fed hasn’t beaten Nole indoors since 2010 when he beat him in Basel and WTF.

        Nole has won the last three: 2012 WTF, 2013 Paris and 2013 WTF.

        He also beat Fed in Basel in 2009.

        Nole is 4-2 overall vs Fed indoors.

        If they meet next week, Nole will become the second player with a winning record over the so-called GOAT (with any significant number of matches played).

        Reply

  8. Novak is now the indoor HC king. I think he’s going to win Paris Masters and WTF this year. I think Rafa will never win a title at WTF ( and Paris Masters). Its an opportunity missed by Rafa in 2010 when he was playing his best tennis.

    Reply

    • I don’t believe he wll either. If he was going to it would have happened by now. It’s not just the obstacle of Djokovic and Federer, there are too many younger players these days capable of torpedoing him in the early rounds.

      #A clear case of hope being unlikely to triumph over experience 🙁

      Reply

      • It seems that not winning the WTF is not a concern for Rafa and Toni. They seem to want to concentrate their efforts on winning on clay, Rafa keeps talking about the clay season next year. I have a feeling that after all his injuries and also the rise of Novak and his dominance, Rafa and his team is more realistic than his fans and realizes that Novak is an unmovable block standing in everyone’s way, hence Rafa’s intention of concentrating on clay.

        Reply

      • WTF is a farce. Glorified indoor exho. Happy Rafa doesn’t make winning there a priority.

        To do it right, it should be moved around the world and played outdoors half the time.

        Reply

      • luckystar, in 2008, 2010 & 2013, commies were asking players what they had to do to beat Nadal because he was dominating at the time but nothing lasts for ever and whilst Djokovic is dominating now I wouldn’t say he is unmovable. They even had a game on Sky to take one shot from each player to make the complete player capable of beating Nadal. I distinctly remember Berdych being asked in 2013 and he said maybe all the players who hadn’t beaten Rafa that year should hold a meeting to work out a solution.

        Reply

      • I remember the days when the resident trolls on TT were jeering because Rafa did not have a WTF title and Federer had like two dozen and I said just that – it’s a glorified exho – and they went into overdrive. Don’t recall if you were around at the time or not.

        I’m not a fan of the RR format and am mystified by the scoring system. One year so were the tournament directors. It took the best part of 20 minutes before they reached agreement on whether it was Federer or Murray who went forward to the SF.

        Reply

      • Agreed. My suggestions were to improve it but the RR is a serious major flaw being the only tournament that does this.

        IMO, it should be a prize money event with no points awarded due to this obvious flaw.

        Reply

      • ed, it was between Delpo and Murray.

        The 2 finalists in Singapore lost their first matches and one of them lifted the YE trophy. Under normal circumstances neither of them would have gone passed the 1st round. The points and prize money are excessive. This is a carrot to get players to turn up.

        Reply

        • I remember 2008 when Murray beat Federer although he didn’t need to in order to proceed but was wrecked for the SF

          But it was the first edition in London that I remember best for the 20 minute delay in announcing Federer as the semi finalist. This led to the ‘tanks Federer’ banner and in an ironic twist Davydenko went on to beat Federer in the SF and subsequently win the title.

          Reply

      • ed251137 ( at 2:41 pm),
        —am mystified by the scoring system—
        ===
        .
        The ATP Rulebook & Wiki : ¤¤ ATP World Tour Finals
        The eight players who qualify for the event are split into two groups of four. During this stage, players compete in a round-robin format (meaning players play against all the other players in their group). The two players with the best results in each group progress to the semifinals, where the winners of a group face the runners-up of the other group.
        The final standings of each group shall be determined by the first of the following methods that apply:
        a) Greatest number of wins.
        b) Greatest number of matches played.
        c) Head-to-head results if only two (2) players are tied.
        d) If three (3) players are tied, then: … ¤¤

        (Read more in the 2015 ATP Offcial Rulebook)

        Reply

      • WTF
        DRAW

        “The top seeded players/teams are placed in Group A and the second seeded player/team are placed in Group B. Players/teams seeded 3 and 4, 5 and 6, 7 and 8, are then drawn in pairs with the first drawn placed in Group A. Each player/team plays the three other players/teams in his group. The winner of each group (best overall record) is placed in separate semi-final brackets, with the top player/team in Group A playing the runner-up in Group B, and vice versa. If two or more players/teams are tied after the round robin matches, the ties are broken by the Tie-Break Procedure.”

        http://www.barclaysatpworldtourfinals.com/en/event/rules-and-format

        Reply

      • I wouldn’t go that far to state that Rafa may never win WTF…Rafa is a synonym for miracle…and miracles happen…people have been writing him off so many times and yet he would prove them wrong again and again…as of late Rafa regained his animal instinct…the top four constantly keep an eye on him…what does it tell you?…Rafa is coming back once again…

        I think Rafa stands equal chance to win WTF as Novak to win RG…

        Reply

      • He pulled out of the WTF because he was injured during the Paris Masters and retired mid match (amid shameful booing from the French crowd). Federer finished his match but withdrew from the rest of the tournament and recuperated in time for Shanghai.

        It should be borne in mind this was 2008 Olympic year. The top guys had flown from America to Bejiing; From Bejiing to New York; back to Europe; then to Shanghai – all within a matter of weeks. A few days later the top Spanish and Argentinians had to jet off to Argentinia for the Davis Cup final.

        Jet lag, sleep deprivation and exhaustion. That schedule was draconian.

        Reply

      • Yes, not sure if I’ve mentioned it before but I’ve never been a fan of the French crowd, especially when it comes to their treatment of Rafa in any match other than against Djokovic (of whom they seem to respect even less if that’s possible).

        Reply

      • ed251137 (at 6:07 pm),

        Speaking of the French crowd, hawk is permanently trying to convince people here that Rafa has ALWAYS been treated badly by them. I have always said that hooligan-Fedfans booed Rafa and it has happened twice: at the Paris Masters in 2008 and at RG in 2009.

        Reply

        • People form snap opinions of other nationalities based on one or two unfortunate encounters and thereafter remain antagonistic. Even more when there is also a language barrier.

          We’ve observed how popular Rafa is in France away from the tennis courts but as we know it only needs a few hecklers in any audience to cause mayhem.

          I agree with Hawkeye Rafa is not shown the same courtesy as Federer in France – or elsewhere come to that. I think this bothers U.Toni more than it does Rafa. I also attribute the negativity towards Rafa to pundits such as Guy Forget and Matts Wilander who constantly made derogatory remarks. e.g. Forget: ‘We don’t want construction workers at Roland Garros’. ugh!

          btw. The above is a generalisation, not an endorsement of your opinion on Hawk’s view of the French.

          Reply

      • ed251137 says:
        November 2, 2015 at 9:25 pm
        —I think this bothers U.Toni more than it does Rafa.—
        ===
        .
        Jesus! U.Toni has only once said something negative about the spectators in France – after the hooligan-Fedfans booed Rafa when he lost to Söderling in 2009. But it has religiously been brought up by hawk here countless times!
        /I used Mary’s word “religiously brought up”/

        Reply

    • Well it’s good to have at least one WTF title as it’s the only important title missing in his resume. I really hope this is not something people hold against Rafa the way they hold the FO against Sampras or the USO against Borg.

      Reply

    • Nadine, I know nothing is for sure, but Novak’s dominance now is eeriely similar to Fed’s 2004-2007. Both Fed and Novak have the advantage of having the game to excel on a surface that’s being played on at 60-70% of tour tournaments, which is why Novak now is riding high winning the two HC slams, three of five HC masters with another two finals; those already accounted for more than half of the ranking points.

      Coming back to Rafa, it’s his unbelievable dominance on clay plus being very good on grass and HCs that he was able to dominate in 2008 and 2010; and his excellent results on HCs that he had such an amazing season in 2013. In a way this speaks volumes about Rafa’s greatness, when he was able to dominate the tour even when HCs weren’t his favorite surface (he’s no. 1 on clay and grass and no.2 on HCs in both 2008 and 2010, no.1 on HCs being Novak and Fed respectively).

      Novak now is the king of all surfaces, except that he couldn’t win the FO but has most points on clay this year among all players.

      Reply

  9. No, Rafa is the clay court GOAT. Fed is the grass GOAT, indoor GOAT, hard court GOAT and overall GOAT. Novak not any GOAT yet. He’s the current king of all the surfaces, indoors and outdoors.

    Reply

  10. Dont agree Novak is the HC GOAT (not yet the GOAT) when he made 6 USO finals winning only two. His HC slam records is not as good as Fed’s and he’s now only 28 and may get worse when he gets older. Currently Fed has more HC titles, including more slams and more WTF and equal number of HC Masters.

    Reply

  11. For now, I would say, Novak is the GOAT on slow-medium paced hard courts!

    Fed the GOAT on medium-fast hard courts… Novak is perhaps on his way to becoming the HC GOAT, let’s see…..

    on grass, it is either fed or pete…may be pete has a little edge but quite arguable

    on clay, OF COURSE rafa!

    on indoors, Johnny mac was incredible! now there is fed and most recently there is novak!

    Reply

    • You forgot that overall Rafa is GOAT.

      Connors and McEnroe could all play at any tournaments they wanted, often different ones.

      So they could run around playing all sorts of smaller indoor events paying appearance fees. Novak has to play mostly mandatory events against all the top players all of the time.

      There were much fewer mandatory events.

      That said, Novak and Roger are better indoor players. Today’s game is simply superior to the 70′s. (Oh no he d’int.)

      BOOM!!!

      Reply

      • haha….fair points regarding playing smaller events…

        today’s game superior? umm…may be….it is very different and likely superior but every player deals with players of his own era so that balances things off…

        I wish rafa can win a WTF!

        Reply

      • I dont understand why is Rafa the GOAT. Hrs not excellent on grass, even Novak has more Wimbledon titles now. Rafa has 3 HC slams vs Fed’s 9 and Novak’s 7. Hes the overwhelming CLAY GOAT but how’s he the GOAT??

        Reply

      • Novak may be the GOAT soon. He can do it as soon as June by holding all four slams concurrently but as of now he’s missing the French, seven less slams than the record, less Masters than the record.

        Saying that Rafa is not excellent on grass is an outrageously wrong statement. How many players won two Wimbledon titles and made five straight finals? Please.

        Reply

      • There are others who won five or seven Wimbledon, those are/were excellent. There are others who won three Wimbledon and reached a few more finals and they’re very good on grass. To me Rafa belongs to the latter category.

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      • So according to you, Fed, Sampras and Borg are the only excellent grass court players in the open era.

        Sure. Whatevs.

        To say that Becker, Rafa and Connors weren’t excellent on grass does them a disservice and is a ridiculous statement.

        There are many very good grass court players. For instance, anyone who ever won a Wimbledon title qualifies.

        Reply

      • Suffice to say that I don’t agree with the comment that the game is superior to the 70’s. How can you compare and make that statement? Because there were fewer mandatory events? Why not talk about the racket technology back then. That’s why I don’t see how we can possibly compare eras and rate them in any way. The game has changed a great deal since the 70’s. It’s much more physical and the racket technology has given players even more power and advantages. But in the 70’s it was more like survival of the fittest. Nastase made a habit of blowing up in almost every match. Because of his antics, they established the player’s code of conduct. But back then players would deliberately try to hit each other. In that respect, things were tougher. It was like survival of the fittest and the meanest. I still remember watching a youtube video of Lendl hitting a shot right at Vitas Gerulaitis, which sent him falling backwards onto the court. But he just got back up and continued playing.

        Each era of tennis has its own difficulties. What about before 1968, the beginning of the Open Era in tennis? Look at what Laver, Emerson, Rosewall and others of that era had to go through. If the wanted to make any money, they had to play in professional events, but that got them banned from participating in tennis tournaments. It was a crazy time in tennis, in which the sport didn’t seem to know if it wanted to be all about pros or amateurs. Those guys never made much in their careers. Laver has wins that are not counted in the official record because of the fact that he played in pro tournaments. It was terrible. Fortunately, sanity finally prevailed with the ushering in of the Open Era, Thank goodness! But each era has its good aspects and bad aspects.

        Rafa is not the overall GOAT because nobody is!

        Reply

  12. Ricky’s attempt at denigrating the SABR is so funny. Sour grapes all over. The whole point of the strategy is to put doubt in the opponents’ mind. Not its direct success rate which anyway is not high against most players. It’s the unpredictability that makes it lethal.

    Reply

  13. Let’s see how the other 3 would cope with being out with injury and illness for 12 months out of the last 3 years. Murray was out of the top 10 after his back surgery and it took him a year to recover and he wasn’ t even sidelined for as long as 6 months.

    Reply

    • I agree with you. He’s certainly the Most Injured Player of All Time. That is one title I shall certainly grant him. Never seen a bigger case of martyr syndrome in my life. And there I was sympathising with the Syrian Refugee Crisis. 🙁

      Reply

  15. Fed is now 34 . It is surprising he is even within top 3. Djokovic’s defeats of old Federer are irrelevant for the GOAT argument. FED is the hardcourt GOAT. FED or Sampras are Grass GOAT. Rafa is the clay GOAT. Fans of Rafa are unnecessarily hyping up Djoko without Stats to back them. Currently he is indeed king because we are in a super weak era but he is not GOAT of ANY surface. These fans claimed Djoko has the best ROS without any stats to back them by claiming that experts say so ( the fallacy of the expert argument). nats claimed Rafa has to be at 100% to beat Djoko on clay, a statement which is disrespectful of Rafa’s status as the clay legend. Now hawks claims Djoko is the HC GOAT. These maybe Rafa fans but their loyalty is not 100%.

    Reply

  16. Don’t blame you hawks. Everyone loves a winner.So if some Rafa fans are hitching their wagon to the rising Djoko star, it is not surprising. If Rafa doesn’t win any more slams next year, I am sure there will be a big exodus into Djoko camp all in the name of being objective or loyal to interest in tennis. Right now, your claim of loyalty to tennis being the basis for your elevation of Djoko to GOAT in the areas of HC or ROS doesn’t wash as there aren’t any stats to support these claims. Soon however, if the super weak era persists, there will probably be stats to support these claims ( HC and ROS). But for stats to catch up with nats opinion, a minimum of 9 years would be required so I doubt that nats will ever have stats to support her claim. Et tu Brute, this was the “unkindest” cut of all.

    Reply

  17. You are proving nadline and augusta’s contention. If you claim Djoko is the GOAT not based on any stats then you are a fan of Djoko.

    Reply

  18. nats, your claim that Rafa has to be at 100% to beat Djoko on clay is disrespectful and not backed by stats. Now no player is at 100% all the time. Players are generally between 80-100%. A top player is consistently at the top because his 80%-100% is good enough to beat the field.
    So Rafa dominated the field in clay because his 80%-100% was good enough to beat them for nearly 10 years. And that field included Djoko. Just because Rafa is no longer at his peak, it doesn’t prove that the current Djoko is so good that only a peak Rafa can beat him . That statement can only be made when Djoko is able to establish the same record of dominance on clay over the field which Rafa did during his peak. And Djoko will require at least 9 years to do that. Is that so hard to understand?

    Reply

    • I never said A PEAK RAFA!!! A PEAK Rafa is gone! I am saying Rafa of 2015 must be 100%. You are clearly either not reading what I am saying or you have trouble understanding English! I said RAFA of 2015 which can by no means be the same as peak Rafa!

      Again, I am not talking about the past! I am talking about now! Rafa dominated the field and is the KIng of Clay and it will stay that way. He is no longer at his peak but Novak is, and in order to be able to beat THIS Novak Rafa will have to do better than this year. Which means he will have to be 100%. I hope you are not saying that Rafa will no longer be KIng of Clay if he has to be 100% to beat Novak because that is what is disrespectful of Rafa.

      If you are now arguing that Novak may not be 100% then Rafa CAN beat him but we are not talking about that option. Novak may as well be tired, injured or love sick and lose to Rafa! I am not considering Novak dropping his level. I am saying THIS RAFA against THIS NOVAK! You keep twisting my words and making clueless arguments..

      We were talking about Novak’s dominance next year and if he continues at this level who would be able to beat him. I said Rafa at 100% in 2016 will be able to beat him.I hope you are not arguing now that Novak’s level may drop and then Rafa may not have to be 100%. That is possible to happen but that’s not the subject of discussion.

      Again the discussion which you interrupted and wrongly interpreted was: Novak of 2015 vs Rafa of 2015. Please do not go back and forth with ridiculous statements that make little sense…the way you put it Fed should have never been beaten at Wimby but he was….

      Reply

  19. Also Djoko’s record on clay is not even as good as Fed’s, let alone Rafa’s. Also Fed, nearly 30, beat Djoko in 2011 RG when Djoko was 24 and in “God mode”. So probably prime Fed on clay is better than prime Djoko on clay.
    In most of the RGs , when Djoko wasn’t #1 or #2, Djoko was in Rafa’s half so it isn’t as if it was thanks to Fed that Rafa won the other RGs.
    So kindly explain, nats, what is it that you find so hard to understand?

    Reply

    • I think you are constantly misinterpreting my words…and it’s pointless to argue about something that you fail to comprehend in the first place…I am not talking about past records…I am talking about current level of play…past records exist for memories….current level is what we discuss and make predictions about…

      Rafa lost to Novak already in 2015…he knows what to do to beat him in 2016…that is all what matters to me…

      Reply

  21. Your argument is wrong , nats. Fed is above 30 for God’s sake. He is no longer at 100%. Djoko beating him was not a surprise and in no way takes away from Fed’s claim to Grass Goat. If you said Fed needs to be at 100% to beat Djoko on grass, you would be disrespectful to Fed’s grass record but not half as disrespectful as you were to Rafa’s clay record.

    Reply

    • no, wrong again! I was thinking of Rafa beating Fed at Wimby, not Novak…the discussions was about Rafa, remember? Or you are saying Fed was less than 100% when he lost to Rafa?

      Reply

  22. I don’t have to worry about the GOAT discussion for myself, because as far as I am concerned there cannot be a GOAT! That makes life so much simpler. As Rod Laver said, a player can only be the greatest in his era. That makes so much more sense to me.

    Reading all of the discussion and the back and forth it just seems that it’s splitting hairs. Novak, Fed and Rafa have each achieved their own records and accomplishments in this sport. I don’t think that Novak is yet at the same status as Fed and Rafa, but he is getting there. If he continues then he will at some point be deserving of being in the same class as Rafa and Fed. But not yet.

    I will not be one who shifts loyalties to Novak. I respect his game and what he’s done this year. I don’t think the weak era applies at all. No comparison to the real weak era when Fed faced the likes of Roddick, Safin, Hewitt and Nalby. I think it’s too convenient to chalk up Novak’s results this year to not having enough competition. That’s quite disingenuous.

    I will be a Rafa fan all the way until the day he hangs up his racket, which I hope does not happen for a while yet! 🙂

    Reply

  23. Strange though it might seem, I do believe native loves Rafa and when push comes to shove, hopefully she will abandon the enemy camps she sometimes occupies.

    Reply

  24. Mary,

    Sorry, but I don’t occupy so-called :”enemy camps”. I am in one camp and always have been. If others want to think differently, then so be it but no one knows what is in my mind, what I think or what I believe.

    Appreciating Novak’s game doesn’t make one a fan. There is a difference.

    Reply

  25. nats
    Rafa needed to be at 100% to beat Fed on grass. Given their respective grass records, it would be disrespectful to say Fed needs to be at 100% to beat Rafa or Djoko on grass.

    Reply

    • I agree with Mary on the issue of Rafa beating Fed on grass. I also agree that Fed does not have to be at 100% to beat Rafa on grass. I am not even sure that Fed can be at 100% these days on grass. He wasn’t able to beat Novak on grass this year. Fed played very well, but I don’t think he was at the level of 2006-2008.

      Reply

      • @ native,

        I never said Fed needs to be at 100% to beat Rafa on grass…where did you see me saying that?

        but what I am liking from this argument with Mary is that finally Mary and Native became friends and loving each other’s posts…and they now belong to the same camp…that is so sweet!

        well, if that’s what it takes…I do not regret any of this…

        Reply

    • wrong again! I was talking about the past…Rafa of 2008 could beat Fed at his 100%…Rafa of 2015 wouldn’t even come close…but you do know that…

      Reply

      • nats,

        Is it really necessary for you to comment on my relationship with Mary? Would you prefer to have us saying bad things about each other? Why even bother to comment on it. Mary said something to me and I responded regarding me being in enemy camps. I did not agree with her on that score. But I did agree with something she said about Fed beating Rafa on grass. What’s the big deal?

        That doesn’t mean that I have a problem with you or anything. You don’t need to make sarcastic digs because I am choosing not to get into an argument with someone. I thought the point was for all of us to get along.

        Reply

  26. I also don’t think that Novak is necessarily going to dominate next year. I am hoping that Rafa can get back to his best because he is the one player who can take down Novak. But we also have Murray who is capable of winning slams and now Stan is in the mix, having beaten Novak at RG. As for Fed, I don’t see him being able to beat Novak in a slam match, be it a final or semi or whatever. I just don’t think he can do it at the age of 34. He’s had two cracks at it this year. Fed obviously wants to win at least one more slam to protect his record. But I just don’t think it’s going to happen.

    Reply

    • @ native, 7:38 pm,

      it was meant to be a joke. I too like you to be friends with Mary or any other poster here…I was just pleased that I somehow encouraged it and I have taken the credit where it’s due…no sarcasm whatsoever…just relax and enjoy this new friendly atmosphere while it lasts… 🙂

      and for what it’s worth, I really hope Novak will not dominate next year…I hope Rafa to ajust his game and come back strong and beat them all…I want him to win AO and RG and the rest is irrelevant as far as I am concerned…

      Reply

      • nats,

        Thanks so much for your response! 🙂

        Sometimes it’s hard to know the meaning of comments because we are posting words and one can’t see the person or hear the inflection in their voices.

        I really appreciate you clarifying this. I did not mean my comment to be said in an angry way.

        My feeling is that as long as someone is willing to talk to me in a reasonable and respectful way, then I will respond in kind.

        I do appreciate your passion and your thoughts and contributions to the discussion here. I hope that you will always know that. 🙂

        We may disagree, but it’s always all good.

        Also, I absolutely hope that Novak won’t dominate next year! We agree on that! I am expecting a certain Spanish player who we all know and love to have his say next year!

        I agree about AO and RG!

        Thanks again! No hard feelings at all! 🙂

        Reply

  29. Too bad Fed got the win this time… But Rafa was very gracious in defeat, Rafa is certainly back and he’s only going to get better from now on.
    I think that a subpar Djokovic can only beat A 100 % Rafa in AO.

    Reply

  30. I don’t think a subpar Djoko can beat a 100% Rafa anywhere. However Rafa probably has to be at 100% to beat Djoko at AO.
    I don’t mind Fed winning at Basel. He wanted that win very badly. But of course, a win by Rafa would have helped in building our faith in the return of our Rafa the invincible.

    Reply

    • I’ve always thought Nadal and Djokovic can give each other as good as they get, they are each other’s toughest opponent. It’s easy to judge Rafa now after suffering so many injury setbacks and having to make comebacks in the last 3 years to get his momentum back. Some implying that Djoker can beat with one hand tied behind his back literally.

      Reply

    • I agree about Rafa having to be at 100% to beat Novak at AO. He hasn’t won so many times there for nothing. It’s by far his most successful slam.

      I do not think that Novak can beat Rafa with one hand tied behind his back. Since that 2012 AO, Rafa has had the better of Novak until this year.

      Reply

  31. hawkeye, I would like to answer your question addressed to nadline.
    A 100% Rafa cannot be beaten anywhere, on any surface,by anybody.

    Reply

  35. nadline why do you want Christophe and hawks to post at the same time? Double trouble! Or we would be fatally ill seeing everything twice like that “catch 22” character.

    Reply

  37. As NNY said, novak is not in the same league as nadal and federer as yet…. BUT, he is progressing at a crazy rate…. I do think rafa will have a lot more to say next year.

    Only a 100% rafa or stan can beat novak at AO….

    To be honest, I do feel worried about novak’s progress. He has 10 slams and he has been almost invincible this year.

    His serve , ROS, forehand, backhand are all world class weapons operating at ruthless efficiency. Currently he is physically the strongest, mentally the toughest (soon will be eclipsed by rafa’s mental game though ) and the best mover.

    Rafa’s movement is improving but there is still plenty of room for improvement. However, he moved towards his backhand side better in the basel final.

    @hawkeye wrote some where that playing behind the baseline is an effect rather than being a cause … i agree with this to a large extent!

    Reply

    • I agree with you…I expect Rafa to come back stronger next year…this year was really weird in many ways…

      I want to share with you the thoughts of my friend, Nole’s fan…he was saying that Nole has not even played his best tennis this fall…he is winning his matches mostly on his mental strength and his physical fitness…he finds the way out of troubles and he immediately puts pressure on his opponents who eventually give up…

      TBH I do not like Nole’s tennis…I think it is mostly baseline fest and I dislike watching two people exhausting each other on court…I so admire Fed improving his volleying skills..it beautiful to watch…I hope Rafa ajusts his own game to some extent…I know it’s easier than done but I think team Nadal is working on it…

      Reply

      • yeah…but rafa won countless matches due to his sheer willpower, mental strength and physical strength…now novak does that too. Also, fed was forced to improve his volleys. Trust me, he is not fond of wow-ing audiences but rather he just wants to win . He cannot compete from the baseline with nole/rafa so he evolved his game. I do give him lots of credit for improving his net game and of course his backhand. He can pack quite a punch now with his backhand….

        Reply

      • Nah, Novak has now moved into the court as much as possible though not always rushing to the net the way Fed does. Novak is trying to control from the mid court, not only from the baseline and so far so good for him.

        Rafa back in 2010 was trying to move forward, with some success, and he did that in 2013 during the USO series. Sadly, he reverted to his clay court style of play most of the time. Its hard to change something which served him well for most of his career. I just hope he at least moves forward when playing on grass and fast HCs.

        Reply

    • vamosrafa,

      I am also worried about Novak progressing so rapidly. He does seem to be in his prime right now. I actually do not buy the “weak field” argument. I think that Novak has simply separated himself from the rest of the field. Now I know that this kind of comment may well get me put in the “enemy camp” category, but that’s just how I see it.

      However, I truly hope that Rafa gets back to his best, so that he can give Novak a run for his money next year.

      One thought I had about the Basel final – I thought Rafa hit his backhand, especially cc really well in that match. He was also doing it in his previous matches. Stepping into the court to hit a DTL or CC backhand for winners. It’s a good sign that this shot is coming back.

      Reply

  38. You guys seem to think rafa of 2008 was that great?! :S yes , he was quite extraordinary but keep in mind that his forehand was nowhere as developed. His forehand attained new heights in 2013. He moved it up a gear in 2010 and then 2013 featured the fearhand! Rafa’s serve was also weaker and underdeveloped in 2008! He would get punished even more for those serves if he comes up against the return game of today’s nole. Rafa os 2008 was, however, at his physical peak. He had infinite reserves of energy. His backhand was near its peak. He was untouchable on clay in 2008. Wow he was a freak.

    Reply

    • VR, you now get it. Fed and Rafa were at their physical peak (Fed during 2004-2006 and Rafa 2008 -2011) and so their BH and FH were at their most solid, ie hard to breakdown. To me a BH or a FH which is hard to overcome is better than one which is more varied or more offensive but could be overcome by opponent’s attack, and thats what i meant when i said someone has/had a better BH or FH. When both were at their physical peak, Fedal were hard to beat. Fed’s BH back then was only vulnerable to Rafa and mainly on clay.

      Reply

      • Ed, its as if Rafa was playing like theres no tomorrow, back in 2013. I think having that long injury break, having to miss the USO, the AO and most importantly the Olympics when he was supposed to be the flag bearer for Spain, had a strong impact on him. I guessed he’s determined to comeback strong and do well, not only to prove to others but to prove to himself that he still could be the topdog and beat whoever standing in his way. I think he did mention that he wont know when hes going to win, or when he wont be winning anymore, something to that effect if i remember correctly.

        I guess the back injury that happened in a slam final (AO) really did him in; he probably couldnt believe what and why the bad luck he had one after another, not helped by his wrist injury just before the NAHC swing. His 2015 didnt start well as he’s ill prepared for it in the first place; moreover his back injury was something new to him, unlike his knee injuries, all the more he had to be cautious and feeling less confident.

        Reply

    • vamosrafa,

      I like your analysis of the 2008 Rafa. Whenever I have gone back and watched the 2008 Wimbledon final, I am struck by how much weaker his serve was back then. It was just more about getting the ball in play. It’s also true that his forehand was not the ferocious weapon it has become. But the one thing that did truly stand out, was how well Rafa moved on the court back then. Truly exceptional! That’s when I realize that he has slowed down a bit these days. He really never got tired in matches back then.

      I guess we do have to accept that Rafa is getting older in tennis years. It happens to all of them. There are things that you start to lose and then it’s necessary to find ways to compensate. For the sake of his body, I hope that Rafa will continue to be aggressive and look to close out points quickly. I know that this is not always possible, but I do hope that he can win more efficiently moving forward. He has to take care of his body.

      Reply

    • Ricky,

      But the point is that Novak wasn’t able to sustain it after 2011. He didn’t dominate again until this year. So that’s four years. I know that doesn’t mean he went away. He was still at #1 for a good part of that time. Rafa also got the better of him after that 2012 AO loss in slams until this year. So the next years after 2011 did slow Novak down a bit. Rafa had a lot to do with that.

      I think in many ways this year has been an even better one for Novak. He has become so mentally strong these days. He has this ability to raise his level of play when needed. He is in his prime physically. I think this year he just made even more strides in his career.

      Reply

      • It is Novak’s mental strength which improved. He was always able to go toe to toe with Rafa from the outset but stumbled more often than not – he lacked the belief particularly on clay until 2011. However he was not prepared for the 2013 Rafa. Having wrested the Monte Carlo crown from Rafa with relative ease he became nonchalant and Rafa gained the upper hand.

        I don’t think anybody has explained satisfactorily what drove Rafa to such heights that year – particularly as recently he let slip he had played the whole of 2013 in severe pain.
        By the same token, in spite of reams and reams of speculation and countless theories, we are no closer to understanding the real cause of his dramatic, debilitating loss of confidence.

        Reply

  39. @ vamosrafa,

    you are right about Fed. He cannot compete with Nole & Rafa in the baseline fest and he never liked it to be true…even in this match in Basel, even with this version of Rafa, Fed ended up losing longer rallies…Fed was forced to change but that is what I think Rafa is to do as well if he wants to beat Nole…Nole is at his peak and can run forever, Rafa can no longer afford it…especially with those knees starting to bother him again…

    Reply

    • well that is true….rafa has to find some solutions. Right now, rafa seems to be convinced that if he can regain his form, he can beat nole. That may well happen but I am not sure how much physical endurance he has now..he is still on of the fittest and only time will tell how much of his former strength he regains.

      Rafa’s second serve and backhand slice, if he can improve these shots, he can gain the upper hand even over novak. The backhand slice can create winning patterns for him. He hits some pathetic slices sometimes and the rate of improvement has been depressing.

      It’s been years but he has not quite been able to develop a backhand DTL that can be called a real weapon. I hope he can do that in the coming years. The pressure of aging will force him to take initiatives. He has started serving after winning tosses and is practicing returning second serves from inside the baseline. He is trying to add some dimensions. I have faith in rafa. He will start winning slams again very soon,

      Reply

  40. I think the Rafa of 2008 was formidable. Untouchable on clay. His progress through RG rounds was awe inspiring and he crushed Fed in the final. Then went on to beard the grass lion in his own den. Won Olympics on hard court. Got exhausted but the exciting, formidable Rafa surfaced in AO 2009. Nothing seemed impossible for him. Those were heady days for Rafa fans.

    Reply

    • The current nole would be a very tough proposition for Rafa of 2008. Rafa of 2008 will in fact have lots of difficulties which we never saw him experience.

      These comparisons are quite illogical …. players evolve their games on the basis of how they can overcome their rivals. They just keep getting better and better with time until age catches up and makes them slower etc.

      The moment when Rafa won 2009 , however, was really the pinnacle in many ways. he seemed unstoppable. Another such moment was after his career slam at USO 2010… sighhhh….those days!

      Reply

      • The so called formidable current Djoko failed to beat Rafa at any RG until this year when Rafa is obviously slumping. But Djoko is still not that formidable on clay as he got beaten by Stan. Then again Djoko seemed the hard court king but Rafa beat him in 2013 in Canada as well as in the USO. In 2011 USO and 2012 AO, their matches were close. I am sure USO 2011 would have been won by Rafa but for the back to back matches he had to play. Plus I think he had burnt his hands and cramped badly at some press conference showing he had some fitness issues?
        There was an analysis by some tennis writer (Steve Tignor?), as to why till this year Djoko had won only 1 USO. Apparently the wind bothers him but now with the partially constructed roof, the wind is cut down. So from this year on wards, even USO is not his weak surface. Fed, Muzz and Rafa, especially Muzz are not unduly bothered by the wind.
        I am not too sanguine about Rafa’s return as I am puzzled by his lack of power and loss of speed. For the sake of tennis, I hope he does come back. Or Muzz picks up the gauntlet. Or some promising young player steps up to the plate. The young players these days are spoilt and though talented are not prepared for the huge amount of hard work and sacrifice required to be at the top. Like Kyrgios after he beat Rafa or Sloane after she beat Serena, these kids think they have arrived just by beating the legends. They do not realize, or the millions in endorsements make it convenient for them to forget, that genius is 99% perspiration.

        Reply

      • vamosrafa,

        I agree about the 2009 AO being the pinnacle of Rafa’s career up to that point in time. That slam win is my personal favorite, although I know that the 2008 Wimbledon is considered his greatest slam win. I can’t argue with that, but for me it will always be the 2009 AO. I have talked about this many times in the past, but I will say it again. That slam win was just one of the most extraordinary moments in which a player managed to triumph over almost insurmountable obstacles. Rafa had every reason to lose that final. The marathon match with Nando in the semis, having only one day’s rest to Fed’s two, never having beaten Fed at a hard court slam. But somehow Rafa was able to dig deep and maybe find reserves that even he may not have thought he had.

        I will always believe that the reason for Fed breaking down at the trophy ceremony, was because there were no excuses for his loss. On paper, he had it in the bag. That Rafa could overcome him with all those disadvantages, truly seemed to crush Fed. I always had the feeling that Fed was waiting for Rafa to crumble or be overcome by fatigue. That it would all catch up with him at some point. But that never happened. After Fed won the fourth set, one would have thought he would come out in the fifth set with the momentum. But Rafa came out even stronger and just took that last set away from him. He broke Fed mentally in that set.

        Yes, the other great moment was after Rafa won the 2010 USO. Great times!

        Reply

      • The 2008 Rafa? Clearly he’ll get the better of the current Novak on clay. Novak can win the clay Masters (given how close he pushed Rafa at Hamburg 2008) but Rafa will win the FO, NID.

        On grass, the 2008 Rafa could beat the 2008 version of Fed, I’ll give Rafa an edge over the current Novak on grass. The current Novak should be better than the 2008 Rafa at the HC slams.

        I think the AO2009 version of Rafa was by far the best Rafa at the AO, and he would give the 2011 version of Novak at the AO (his best version there) a run for his money. I would tend to think that the 2010 USO version of Rafa would beat any version of Novak at the USO. Seriously, I’m not too impressed with Novak at the USO, its the most difficult slam for him and he could be beaten there by quite a number of guys – Rafa, Murray, Kei and in the past by Fed.

        Reply

    • the 2008 Rafa was my personal favorite…all the posts here about Rafa in those 2008-2009 days bring such great memories…he was really something back then…his fitness, his mental strength, his tennis all were on such high level…it was a pure joy to watch…

      I also agree that Rafa adjusts his game to be able to beat certain opponents…he did it for Fed and Fed did it for him…Nole did it for Rafa…I am sure once again Rafa and his team will prove that their tennis brain and their tactics work against just about anybody…and that they will fine-tune Rafa’s game once again to deal with Nole…

      we must acknowledge that it makes it harder and harder to come back after all those injuries…one of my friends said: “where in the sport did you witness so many successful come-backs as with Rafa…it cannot go on forever…” But what I think is that Rafa’s determination and this killer instinct that has recently resurfaced will be the leading force yet again…Rafa is capable of showing exceptional ability and powers when in such mode…

      this may be the wishful thinking but Rafa may still do well in the FTW…after all his form is improving every single day…

      Vamos Rafa!

      Reply

  41. natashao2013 says:
    November 3, 2015 at 10:08 am
    the 2008 Rafa was my personal favorite…
    ***************************************************
    So who is your personal favourite now? Do you think a less than 100% Novak can beat Rafa today?

    Reply

    • I already responded to your question…make some effort and read it…

      and of all Rafa versions ( as the discussion was Rafa of 2008 vs Rafa of today) the 2008 was my personal favorite version…you should read the posts in order to establish any type of discussion…but then again why would you…it won’t affect your rather offensive position…I wonder what your problem is…

      Reply

  44. Rafa won RG 9 times in 10 consecutive years. He must have been at 80% in some of them. So this proves a 80% Rafa can beat the field which includes Djoko who must have been 100% sometime. So 80% Rafa beats 100% Djoko at RG.
    The close matches on HC prove Djoko needs to be at 100% on any surface to beat Rafa but Rafa can afford 80% at RG to beat everyone including Djoko.

    Reply

      • Obviously Rafa was below 80% this year. Maybe 50%.. Nole has been at 100% this year but his 100% may not be good enough on clay against even other players when they are playing inspired tennis like Stan. That’s the big difference on clay between Rafa and Djoko on clay. That is why Rafa has 9 RG. However if Rafa continues slumping then as Djoko is the most consistent among the other players, chances are Djoko will win RG next year.

        Reply

    • No. False logic.

      Rafa was never 80% vs Nole at RG in any of the matches he won against him.

      Subjective, false logic which proves nothing.

      Nole was 90% at RG vs Stan. He failed to execute the right strategy according to Boris. The only time Nole was 100% against Rafa at RG was 2013 SF which Rafa won. Rafa was 110%.

      Reply

    • augusta,

      Really? Come one! That’s not helping. What’s the big deal over this? That picture is enough to make any of us want to spit up or vomit ourselves.

      Reply

  45. We did see that Novak’s level was not good enough to beat an inspired Stan. I think that was the best match Stan played this year. That’s what it took for him to beat Novak. So maybe one should say that Stan has to be at his best or 100% to beat Novak.

    I also agree that Rafa’s level at RG this year was about 50 -60%. But we are ignoring the real problem. It was between the ears. That is what did Rafa in this year. With all this business about comparing percentages of levels of the too players, we are forgetting the one intangible quality Rafa has that can turn a match on its head. How many times has Rafa won matches, either in slams or Masters or whatever, where he was not at his best? It’s Rafa’s fierce will to win, the refusal to lose, that has made the difference so many times.

    I think that’s what made the difference in the 2013 RG semifinal with Novak. Rafa was serving for the match in that fourth set but Novak broke back and ultimately won it in a TB to force a fifth set. Novak was up a break in the fifth set. But I will never forget how Rafa was stomping around and pumping his fist and nodding his head. He just was not going to lose that match! That was the quality that got him through. He came up with some of the best pure tennis I have seen from him in that fifth set. Novak was also playing some brilliant tennis. They went toe-to-toe. But Novak made a critical mistake in running into the net and Rafa got that point. Rafa was stronger mentally. That was the difference.

    Reply

  46. @ Mary,

    I agree Rafa was at or a bit bellow 60% this year…I also think Novak has issues with RG obviously since he has never been able to win it and he seems to gets doubtful of his own game at the FO… yet Rafa has to be mentally strong as he used to be (no mental lapses allowed) if he wants to beat him next year…

    Nole has a lot of points to defend next year…he has to get tired at some point…if not, and he somehow manages to sustain his current level, than as you said he really has high chances at beating Rafa…

    I read a lot of your comments and with most of it I agreed…I like your tennis logic…so you may as well be right…but allow me to be doubtful of it that Rafa is ever gonna reach his glory days level …his game deteriorated and his speed reduced and he is not getting any younger… and Novak’s level improved…however, I think Novak is reached his peak…he may as well begin to slow down next year…

    what I wish to see is Rafa being at the top of his level in 2016 (whatever it might be comparing to his level of 2008-2009 glory days) and that will I believe be his 100% under the circumstances…having said this I also believe that Novak has real problem with RG…his mental strength is always under serious test when it comes to RG…I would prefer Rafa to be 100% no matter what… 🙂

    Reply

    • It’s all confidence problems starting with the back. Nothing to do with age.He’s one year older than Nole and five years younger than Fed.

      Rafa had one of the best years in tennis in 2013 and would have won the AO in 2014 which would have had him holding three slams at the same time.

      Are we to believe it is age that dramatically and immediately affected his sudden drop in performance for the rest of the year??? He was still just 28!!!!

      No, this is completely mental. Not age related at all.

      Reply

      • it’s not age in its true sense…it’s injuries combined with age…every time he gets injured it gets harder to come back…Rafa is certainly slower than before, his shots lose strength and he sometimes hits ridiculously short…but I agree that his confidence problems are the main cause of his slump this year…

        Reply

      • I disagree. Some of it is age. It happens to all players. One simply cannot ignore or deny it. I agree with nats in that regard. Rafa is older in tennis years than either Novak or Murray. Novak turned pro in 2003, I believe. That’s two years after Rafa. Murray didn’t turn pro unti. 2005. So Rafa has the most miles on his body. In that sense, he is more that one year older than Novak in tennis years.

        Nothing happens dramatically. But it has been obvious that Rafa has lost a step or two over the years. He doesn’t have the speed and quickness that he had in 2008 or 2010.

        The confidence issue this year is mental. But I have been saying for a while now that I believed there is more than one thing going on with Rafa. The mental aspect has been the biggest concern, but along with that are signs of aging. Rafa will need to find ways to compensate for that. Fed’s had to do it. One way is to try to shorten the points by playing aggressively. Easier said than done at times, but if Rafa can win more efficiently then his body will be the better for it.

        Reply

      • I disagree. His decline was immediate from great in 2013 to AO 14 final to no confidence since other than FO 14.

        Age decline is gradual, not sudden like that. He got past his physical injuries but never recovered mentally. He no longer trusted his body after the back, wrist and appendix.

        Reply

  48. Ive a strange feeling that Novak’s worst surface is clay, now that all aspects of his game have improved so much that winning on grass is no longer a problem for him. He seemed to struggle more on clay than on grass these days, eg. hes struggling to beat Berdych in three sets on clay at Monte Carlo. Berdych on clay?? He needed to go five sets vs Murray on clay?

    Rafa and Stan beat Novak at the FO by being aggressive. However, being aggressive on grass may not be enough to beat Novak as he somehow could overcome any form of aggression – ftom Delpo, Cilic, Anderson, Fed.

    Novak’s chances of winning the FO diminishes year after year as he’s not getting any younger and I dont see him improving any further on clay. Rafa OTOH has his game tailored to win on clay and if his movement and confidence are back next year, he’ll have a good chance of winning the FO again. Stan may be a stunbling block to Novak at the FO, but his SHBH will be his weakness when playing Rafa on clay.

    Reply

    • Those are anecdotal examples. You could say the same for Rafa at almost any clay tournament over the last five years where you could find the odd match here or there where he lost a set.

      I think he struggles equally if not more so on fast hard courts where he has less titles than on clay.

      Reply

      • OK on review, I’d say equal between the two.

        He has seven Masters 1000 titles on clay (MC, Madrid, Rome) and seven Masters/WTF titles on fast hard courts (Cinci, Paris and WTF).

        12 finals on those fast hard courts and 11 on clay Masters 1000.

        In reality neither is much of a weakness.

        Especially when you consider that he’s been the betting favourite to win the French Open for the last two years and currently for 2016.

        Reply

      • yeah….rafa was miles apart from the field on clay but that does not mean he did not struggle to win some matches.

        1 Rafa vs Davydenko in rome 2007 SF very very very tough battle. Rafa 7-6(3) 6-7(8) 6-4
        2.Rafa vs hewitt SF in hamburg 2007 semi was also quite tough! Rafa won 2-6 6-3 7-5
        3. Rafa vs Nieminen 2006 Barcelona! rafa was down a set and a break in the second before prevailing 3-6 6-4 6-3

        So these are three examples . A player struggling against a player he was supposed to handle without much trouble CAN happen for even the best of the best. Nothing rare.

        Besides, these arguments of 100% of that player beating 90% of that player and 80% of that player etc etc are fallacious because you are conveniently ignoring a very important aspect: Match up dynamics!

        To say that because novak has never destroyed the field consistently enough on clay, he cannot challenge the rafa of old on clay makes no sense! Novak is NOWHERE near as good on clay as vintage rafa was BUT, he is a nightmare matchup for rafa. If Paul Henri Mathieu can make rafa play the toughest match of RG 2006, why the hell can’t novak who is the worst matchup ever for rafa?! I firmly believe the rafa of 2008 will face lots of problem against the current novak. He had a weak serve and his forehand was not as good.

        Remember novak easily beat rafa in 2011 on clay? and rafa still won RG? Match up issues baby! PLus, ONE of the key reasons rafa lost to novak on clay even was that his serving to novak’s backhand was getting him into loads of trouble. FInally, he developed new serving patterns and unleashed them (basically serving relentlessly to novak’s forehand) in Monte Carlo 2012 final. It was THAT point onwards that rafa evolved his serve, evolved his forehand because of Novak. You guy say an 80% rafa of 2014 beat novak bla bla… Wait, did you guys see HOW DAMN WELL , HOW DAMN HARD rafa hit his forehand DTL in that match? Novak mentioned rafa’s forehand DTL specifically in the presser!! Have never seen one champion talking about one particular shot of their opponent! it was THAT massive in that match. Without that shot, rafa would have surel lost the match , just like he was doing in 2011! Uncle Toni also said at the end of 2011 that they want to hit more winners and then came adding more weight to the tip of the racket to increase power on the forehand.

        SO, players evolve based on how they fare against thei rivals. Federer improved his backhand BIG TIME , rafa evolved his forehand for novak and Novak evolved his forehand because of roger and rafa!

        SORRY about the long post! But I hope it will help put things into perspective

        Reply

      • It’s a great well balanced post on many levels.

        It also explains why there is always a new GOAT and the game gets better for me in my opinion..

        Rafa, Fed and Nole play better because training, nutrition, raquet/string technology and strategies evolve exponentially.

        Reply

      • Hawkeye,

        We will have to agree to disagree because there is no way that Rafa at the age of 29 is not showing some signs of aging. People were saying this about Fed when he was heading toward 30. It doesn’t just happen to certain players. All players have to get older. Skills deteriorate. I said specifically that Rafa does not have the speed or movement on the court that he did about four or five years ago.

        To deny this and chalk it all up to just being mental, is to be in denial.

        Reply

  49. Hawkeye, what are you talking about??

    Novak has won many titles on fast hard courts – Shanghai, Beijing and Dubai. Paris and WTF are no longer fast HCs. The only fast HC that Novak doesnt win is Cincy but he made 4 finals.

    Check Novak’s stats on clay, see how often he needs to go the distance on clay, esp at the FO.

    Reply

    • Paris is a fast hard court…. speed reduced a little but still a fast hard court….the pace rating is similar to that of shanghai. WTF is slower, yes.

      Reply

    • They are the fastest hard courts on tour as of 2013.

      That’s why I mentioned finals in addition to titles to remove the fed factor in cincy and the Rafactor on clay. Please read more carefully.

      You missed my point.

      I repeat. Even if clay is his weakest surface, it is a very minor weakness given that he’s the favourite to win the last two years and 2016. As a matter of fact, he’s almost the odds on favourite to win next year. If it wasn’t for the best clay player ever, he would have multiple FO titles.

      Reply

      • So? Minor or not its still a weakness. Novak was favorite everywhere, whichever slam, still he didnt win all of them, did he?

        Reply

      • That’s not very clearly stated so I cannot comment as I’m not clear on what you are saying specifically.

        Regardless, again, if so, it is a very minor almost negligible weakness.

        In my opinion, relative to other surfaces, he has always struggled more on fast hard courts and clay. He’s closed the gap more on clay than on fast hard courts which probably makes sense because of his obsessive desire to win the French.

        If Rafa can’t win, I’d like to see him do it. He is very deserving and has worked extremely hard to get it.

        If it wasn’t for Rafa, he’d have more than one!

        Reply

    • It was very quick when Fed lost a final to Monfils andt hey did slow the court down but as of 2015, the pace ratings are similar to that of Shanghai. The ‘conditions’ could be slower?…. are the balls used the same across all masters?

      Reply

      • November 3, 2015 at 7:24 pm,

        The Paris Masters website:
        ¤¤ BALLS
        Some 7,000 Head ATP balls will be used in during the BNP Paribas Masters. These are the balls that are used at several ATP Masters 1000 tournaments, the ATP World Tour Finals and at other ATP tournaments and Davis Cup matches.¤¤

        Reply

      • Several, not all.

        And even then the same brand of ball changes from year to year.

        Those that know Rafa know that he has frequently complained about different balls at different tournaments.

        Reply

      • November 3, 2015 at 7:24 pm,

        In 2010, the courts of the Paris Masters were sped UP, after Fed’s permanent whining about the speed of the courts. But he didn’t win. In 2011, the courts were slowed DOWN, then he won.
        Tennis Panorama, Nov. 2011: ¤¤In recent years Bercy [the Paris Masters] has always been the anomaly in the ATP tour, with its super-fast indoor courts often producing surprise champions. But after last year [2010] saw Robin Soderling crowned as champion, the organizers made the deliberate decision to slow DOWN the surface allegedly based on complaints from players that the courts were TOO fast. ¤¤

        http://archive01.tennispanorama.com/?p=20595
        .
        I repeat that at least since 2013, the courts in Basel, at the Paris Masters and at the WTF in London have been identical.

        Reply

      • “With a normal ball during day and night there is differences, but with that ball is completely dramatic how the things change. During the day especially the ball is very, like you are touching a stone. There is no feeling. […]

        “The other day the ball make big change with the weather conditions. Ball today was softer, bigger. The whole day yesterday was very small and very hard. No control. Today you have more control of the ball.”

        “I see a lot of player having a lot of mistakes from a lot … one meter or two meters, and that’s not good for our sport,” he said. “But that’s what we have today. We have that ball. I think ATP and fans deserve a better ball to have a better show.”

        “I think the players said what they have to say. Is not new. Something that happens since a while,” he said. “I didn’t understand very well, because the brand that is making that ball they say now is a new ball, but still bad and I don’t understand why. Because if it’s a new brand creating new ball, you can understand that they make not a bad ball. But the same brand five years ago had a great ball, very good ball. Is difficult to understand why today they are not able to do it.”

        Frankly, it’s never made any sense that different tournaments use different tennis balls. The Australian Open and U.S. Open use Wilson, the French Open currently goes with Babolat and Wimbledon has been playing Slazinger balls since 1902. In theory, these balls are expected to conform to the same standards, but like with golf balls, there are subtle variations in each.

        It all comes down to money, of course, and manufacturers pay a premium to have their balls used at various tournaments, which makes sense. If I’m a 4.5 player looking for a good ball to play with, seeing the ones used by the pros might compel me to make that choice. That’s why all golfers, from scratch to 20 handicap, want Titleist ProV1s. But if a tennis ball manufacturer is going to pay for the privilege and then get complaints the entire tournament, maybe it’s not worth it after all.

        Reply

      • Except you repeat a source that contradicts its own statement. Courts are sped up and slowed down and sped up again. not to mention other factors such as the ball used that even Rafa himself has spoken about. Rafa knows a lot more about playing conditions than this guy you are quoting because Rafa plays in those conditions.

        I am speaking of court measurement data from 2011-2013.

        Not an opinion that even admits there are different variables that contradict his opening claim.

        Reply

      • I try to help some here understand Rafa more closely. In Beijing last year Rafa said:

        “The ball is so bad here,” Nadal to the AP. “If you throw the ball on the floor, the bounce goes everywhere. Is not a question of winning or losing. I won in Rio (earlier this year) with this ball. I won tournaments with this ball.

        “It’s just that we’re competing at the top level of our sport, tennis, and the ball is an important thing.

        “This week we are playing with one ball. Next week we are playing with a different ball,” he said. “That’s dangerous for the shoulder, dangerous for the elbow.”

        Reply

  51. VR, on clay the serve, even the returns, are not so important. You talk about 2006/2007 Rafa on clay but that’s not the vintage Rafa. Vintage Rafa happened in 2008/2010 on clay, even then, hard hitting Almagro and Gulbis did push Rafa to go the distance at Madrid and Rome respectively in 2010.

    Its not a matter of losing a set here and there, its how the match was played; Novak had struggled to win matches on clay even during his peak from 2011 onwards. Novak may win at the clay Masters but not at the FO when facing a 2008 Rafa.

    I dont know what and how all these % come about, but to elevate Novak to the level as if he’s going to beat or threaten
    the king of clay at his peak on clay is getting overboard.

    Reply

    • Luckystar, it is true that serve and returns are not THAT important on clay but when you are against the best returner, it is important even on clay and the evidence of that is obviously that Monte Carlo 2012 final where rafa literally threw every serve to Novak’s forehand. Serve was of HUGE importance in that phase of their rivalry.

      Besides, I did not say 06-07 was vintage rafa. I used examples from that period because some posters were talking about separating yourself from the field. Rafa was miles apart from the field in 05-07 (his 81 match winning streak) so that is why I gave those examples.

      in terms of results and destryoing the field, yes, 2008 was vintage rafa and what he did during RG 2008 was INSANE. But again, 2008 rafa had a forehand inferior to the rafa of 2013/14 and the serve was a lot weaker . Serve is quite important in his matches with novak.

      Rafa barely lost games in 2008 RG but he was pushed in one match? remember? no wonder it was a match against Djokovic! Nole was not a much accomplished clay player back then but he did pretty well even then . He was down 3-0 double break in the third set , recovered and even had set point . He lost in the tie break. That’s because even then the potential matchup issues could be seen.

      Rafa is BY FAR the greatest on clay. But I am not sure what ‘vintage’ rafa on clay is ? in terms of results and distance from the field in a particular time, yes, 2008 . But in terms of weapons and being a complete player, IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY. and THAT is what rafa also thinks! I am sure you must have noticed a gazillion times rafa answers to reporters/journalists that it is impossible to compare his form with previous years as every time is different. Whenever they ask him to compare his form , he says it is impossible to compare! Because he knows its complicated. He could say my movement was better back then, but my forehand is better now but hey my slice is better now and also my serve but perhaps I had a more solid backhand back then ….. so you see?

      Rafa on clay>>> Djokovic on clay. Both in terms of killing the field and also in terms of head to head matches. No doubts. BUT, it is far more complicated than what is being portrayed here.

      Reply

      • 2013 FO rafa which we saw in the SF (not the one we saw against Brands, Klizan and Fognini in the earlier rounds) was a much more complete player. Even the 2012 rafa. The only deficiency 2013 FO rafa had in that SF was that his intensity wavered a bit when he played full 5 sets. It was his first slam in a long time (as he had missed AO 2013) so there were some dips in his intensity but when he moved to 5th gear in the last set, when he was down 4-3, WOAHHH. 2008 rafa was a bit quicker on the court I guess and had more energy! He was a freak! And mayyy be, a more solid backhand….

        Reply

      • Right you are VR.

        That 5th set showed me tennis that I never thought possible. Novak would have won against any other player (including some previous vintages of Rafa) in that set.

        In my opinion.

        Reply

      • @luckystar, you said it yourself, it becomes a matter of opinion! Rafa of 2008 is clearly at disadvantages against Rafa of 2012-14 (the rafa we saw in the semis and finals) . But, the rafa of 2008 also has some advantages over the rafa of 2013 FO.

        Reply

  52. I would also like to mention the rafa of 2012 RG! He was too damn good. He had a good serve, beast forehand, solid backhand and fantastic movement and physical strength. So, ‘vintage’ rafa is kind of impossible to determine and rafa implies the same.

    Reply

    • Exactly VR.

      Federer said during the US Open this year that he played better this year (up to that point anyways) than he did 10 years ago.

      If you compare match statistics on TennisAbstract.com, it supports his statement. So does his ranking at No. 2 when you consider the field of competition. 2005 was weak.

      More and more players are actually beginning to play their best tennis late 20’s to low thirties thanks to improvements in training, nutrition, technology and technique.

      Reply

    • 2012 Rafa? You forget one thing, he was already slower and less powerful then compared to the 2008 version. Watching that Rafa, I’d already noticed his drop in speed and power back then albeit just slightly. His BH was also not what it used to be; his shots were landing shorter more often then before.

      His overall game might have improved but his speed and power had gone down. We called the 2008 Rafa vintage Rafa because he was quick, powerful and hardly any mishit. I do feel at that time that his ROS was better, his BH too.

      Reply

      • luckystar, haha, so the same thing again. How can you base ‘vintage’ rafa verdict on only foot speed and physical stamina? As I have said many times, 2008 rafa DEFINITELY had these advantages but he comes up short against the rafa of 2012 or 2013 when it comes to other aspects I previously talked about. Impossible to determine’ vintage’ rafa in my view and I am glad rafa says the same lol :p

        Reply

      • the final set of 2013 RG final, rafa showed everything that is possible on clay. He defended like crazy, moved like a jaguar, fit forehand winners like we had never seen him hit before. He was showing everything out there. 2008 Rafa may ‘outlast’ him but who knows, 2013 rafa may end the deal in 4 sets by being more aggressive? LOL..this is getting funny

        Reply

    • just to add to that, rafa played the 2012 FO final with pain killer injections for his knee! Imagine how he would have fared without any knee issues?! AND, he was on course to straight set-ing novak anyway were it not for that pesky rainfall….with the sun shining next day, he erased a 1-2 deficit and raced to victory 🙂

      Regarding what federer said during USO, EXACTLY! Fed is now is a much more complete player and according to him he played better than he ever has. He also said the same in 2014 at some point. His serve is better than ever ,backhand better than ever, net game MUCH better than ever ….forehand has gotten less consistent though but has all the weapons. In fact ,he has added one dimension to it. He now regularly hits open stance forehands when stretched! that’s because he is not quick enough to hit closed stance forehands all the time and ALSO because he wanted to improve his forehand defending as his rivals Novak and Rafa spread the court too damn well. He hit those a lot during basel final .

      2005 had a weaker field but the fed of 2005-07 was also something else. He was quicker, physically stronger and most importantly, he had razor sharp instincts which helped his timing . He was younger so instincts were sharper. His game was so much built on timing. The reason his backhand was not exploited until rafa and then novak came along was that his timing in those years was incredible. He could hit backhand half-volleys with ease, he could re-direct pace. The current fed does not have the same instincts and timing so that is a loss…. That is why 2006 fed is perhaps tougher to beat but it would depend on whom he is facing and stuff… His forehand was also more consistent back then, obviously.

      Reply

      • You’d never know because in 2006 there was no measurement stick.

        Whereas today there is.

        I believe fed, the cumulative annual match statistics that are better against a better field, and my own eyes.

        Reply

      • yeah…. we would never know, true! you have valid points! but age, loss of instincts and a more erratic forehand are also undeniable facts. So, yeah, we would never know 🙂

        Reply

      • Come on VR, its not just speed and power but a better BH and ROS, even more clutch serving. Rafa’s BH had deteriorated after 2010.

        Reply

      • VR, have fun! Takes some getting used to but the filtering power is really good. Play around to figure it out. You can select multiple filters at the same time.

        http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-bin/player.cgi?p=RogerFederer&f=A2003qq

        These numbers are easily obtained on tennisabstract.com. Just select the years of interest.

        His ace %, 1st serve %, 1st serve points won is higher in the last 52 weeks than it was any year from 2003-07 so this completely supports his statement that his serve is better for example. His other stats in the last 52 weeks all fall within the range of the years from 03-07. None are lower.

        I think it is amazing that he has improved or maintained every match statistic shown over this time.

        Roger is right.

        Reply

      • TOTALS Match Tiebreak Ace% 1stIn 1st% 2nd% RPW DR
        [x] Time Span: 2003 78-17 (82%) 28-18 (61%) 10.5% 59.7% 78.5% 59.1% 38.5% 1.31

        Last 52 63-10 (86%) 19-11 (63%) 11.3% 63.4% 80.0% 58.0% 40.0% 1.43

        Reply

      • The DR ratio in that table is interesting. In 2015, 1.43 means that Fed broke his opponent’s serve 43% more than he was broken himself compared to just 31% when he dominated the weak era in 2005.

        Amaaaaazing!!!!!

        Reply

      • @hawkeye: Yet another fallacy because Federer did not play the indoor season barring TMC due to an ankle injury in 2005. He practically played TMC on one leg because the organisers requested him to as primadonnas like Nadal had pulled out.
        The statistics have a context and the way you’re cherry picking them just goes to further my conviction that you know nothing about tennis.
        He is also, in all likelihood playing longer/ tighter matches now than he was in 2005 and that also affects the way the numbers read.
        So much has been lost in Fed’s game. His court coverage, anticipation, explosiveness and variety off the FH, confidence in going with a lower net clearance on the groundstrokes, defence on his right hand side ( players used to fear attacking his FH wing at one point), his footwork (longer strides today as opposed to smaller, more calculated steps back then) AND serve speed.

        Reply

    • The 2008 Rafa at FO wasnt even being pushed to five sets, and he destroyed Fed there. How do you or we know that even when pushed to five sets, he wont play better than his 2013 SF?

      Like I said, Rafa back then hardly mishit anything and was much quicker, for all we know, that Rafa might not even need a five setter vs the 2013 Novak! Also Rafa hardly had any dip in concentration back then, unlike the more recent Rafa.

      Reply

      • “How do you or we know that even when pushed to five sets, he wont play better than his 2013 SF?”

        This is what I am saying! nobody can possibly know that! not even rafa would have an answer I guess!

        Some plus points for 2008 FO rafa and some for the FO 2013 SF rafa or FO 2014 rafa. There is no OVERALL outcome possible for us to determine. and why are we caring so much?! lol…comparing rafa with rafa !

        Reply

  54. To me, a loss of speed and power, as happened to Fed and Rafa, has affected their game. Fed’s game has improved, so does Rafa’s, but thats not enough to compensate for the loss of speed and power due to physical deterioration through aging or injury. If not, both of them would still be playing at the top of their game and dominating at their respective best surfaces.

    Reply

      • ^this also supports what I said. It was because of fed’s and rafa’s presence that novak started going out of the way to find solutions and he did succeed in many ways.

        Reply

    • Cumulative annual match statistics available on TennisAbstract.com contradict that stance.

      Fed’s is a problem of stronger competition. This is less true for Rafa. The problem for him is mental. It is plain to see. He is rounding the corner but he is doing it the slow way IMO.

      The final in Basel was played at a very high level. Fed played great and yet Rafa played arguably his second best indoor match indoors against him. Fed would have had a good shot of beating Nole indoors with that level.

      Reply

    • you might be right dear, but, are we not ignoring that fact that the competition also evolves? previously, nobody knew fed’s backhand could break down like that but after rafa showed the world how it could be done, I am sure players and coaches and strategists would start figuring out more ways? When you are in the spot light for so long, all the focus is on you and everyone’s training based on you and your strengths and weaknesses isn’t it? Novak knew his physical stamina and strength put him at a major disadv against Rafa so he improved that big time and then escalated his level to new heights!

      Reply

      • Rafa looked untouchable on clay till 2011 and then suddenly he realized that somebody has caught up in terms of dealing with his strengths weaknesses in a way he had never seen before. Then, he evolved his own game , even on clay!

        Reply

      • I think its not a matter of evolving his game but rather a change of strategy or gameplan to deal with Novak. I mean what has evolved in his game? Hes still basically playing the same way; despite being good at the net, hes still not going up to the net often or playing a different game. Fed for eg. has evolved his game, from baseline to net rushing. Even Novak has evolved his game lately, from baseline to playing more at mid court and coming to the net often.

        Rafa is still running around his BH corner to hit his FH DTL or I/O CC FH. Hes still not having a good enough BHDTL shot. He has his FHDTL shot all along, its a matter of deploying it more often as a strategy against Novak, at FO2014 for eg.

        In fact I’m disappointed with how stagnant Rafa’s game is/was. After so many years in the tour, he still couldnt have a good enough BHDTL and so he’s always at a disadvantage against Novak who could change direction at will because he has both DTL and CC shots from both wings. His serve has gone down; in the past he had the varieties, accuracy and he was clutch, now not so esp his second serve. His ROS too isnt as good as before. He’s still sticking to playing from the baseline and rarely come forward, etc and etc.

        Reply

    • I enjoy reading your analysis here and must say there are so many good points made…great discussion guys! Although it may have started as a ridiculous debate over percentages (I still like the % game though 🙂 ) it ended up to be one of the most insightful and well informed tennis discussion that I have read in a while…

      so thank you all! 🙂

      Reply

  55. Hawkeye, kindly refer to all the other earlier posts on this thread and see who started all these. A ridiculous debate yet you happily joined in?

    Reply

  56. Wouldn’t it be nice if some other player had a look in sometime? It’s always about Nadal this, that and the other. This discussion has been dissected every which way and still there is more coming. Nadal’s ears must be wringing the whole time.

    Reply

    • That’s the whole point that this site is more of a fan site than a tennis site but recently that has improved.

      Great to see a few fans of other players here. I’m tired of doing their work for them to keep things interesting around here.

      Would much rather debate them than fellow Rafans.

      That what I like about Tennis-X. No where near as fed-centric as this site is Rafa-centric.

      Reply

    • what? of all the people YOU should not be saying this?! Analyzing some other player entails mentioning his weaknesses (which you enjoy a lot) AND also his strengths (which gives you a clear reason to start labeling people as rafa detractors!!!) LOL. I hope you realize that when people are analyzing, it is NATURAL to talk about good things and bad things. If I am assessing novak, I will talk about what he has not or cannot do well but I am also talk about how good he is in some areas. I am most obsessed with rafa’s game and hence the highest focus of my discussions is on that.

      Reply

  57. vamosrafa says:
    November 3, 2015 at 8:35 pm
    I am most obsessed with rafa’s game and hence the highest focus of my discussions is on that.
    ***********************************
    You’re not the only one. Go to any tennis site and it’s all about Nadal. His news thread on TW got so big that someone started version 2 and that’s now far bigger than Fed’s or Novak’s. in fact one of Novak’s fans said the other day that he hardly goes to his news thread he spends the entire time on Nadal’s thread. The same goes for Fedfans.

    Reply

    • not possible if you keep attacking people by calling them rafa detractors or belonging to enemy camps or whatever. Saying anything good about any other player does not make him a rafa detractor :S …I hope this can totally end and tenngrand can progress.

      Reply

      • @hawkeye, thanks for the alert 😉

        @nadline, it is no secret that fans of nadal are obsessed with nadal so praising another player will very likely still occur in the context of Nadal! and also because nadal is the arch rival for Novak.

        Reply

      • vamosrafa,

        Right on! Also, why don’t we have a site rule about not posting comments from the past all over the place? It interferes with the discussion and clutters up everything. What people said in the past should stay in the past. Sometimes we are seeing comments from a year ago posted again and again. Over and over.

        I don’t know how many times we have talked about other players’ games and gotten trashed for doing so and not being true blue Rafa fans!

        Reply

      • valid! Ricky, could you please consider making this as a rule or something: not posting comments from the past all over the place?

        Reply

  59. I went away because I felt this is more a rafa fan site. There are many other rafa fan sites but they wont want anyone to criticize Rafa. In some other tennis forum, there are nasty people attacking Rafa and his fans, more so than attacking Fed or Novak. Some even suspect that Rafa’s game is so off now because of the implementation of the Biological Passport by WADA and so they think Rafa is now off his usual doping and hence his drop in level.

    I come back here and stick with talking about tennis, of course Rafa being my favorite player, I’ll talk more about him having watched most of his matches, more than any other player’s.

    Reply

  60. Luckystar says:
    November 3, 2015 at 9:19 pm
    I went away because I felt this is more a rafa fan site.
    ********************************
    So it wasn’t augusta’s fault that luckystar went away, after all.

    Reply

  61. Without intention to drag this discussion into further debates I would like to clarify what I meant by “aging”…Rafa’s game has deteriorated over the years…it certainly did not happen overnight as some of you are saying…he lost continuity due to his constant injuries and to his style of play which had always been very demanding on his body and soul and therefore left some scars…Rafa peaked earlier than Novak and had to battle Fed who was at his best…and then with Nole of 2011…all those grueling matches took a toll on his body…that is what is meant by “aging”…

    And in regard to comparing Rafa to Rafa: I agree Rafa of 2008 and Rafa of 2013 have a lot of different features that make our boy the supreme and outstanding tennis player and also physical and tennis wise advantages and disadvantages… But Rafa of 2008 IMO was brilliant in every aspect…he was fast, he was powerful and yes he played stunning tennis! It was a true rhapsody of tennis! One shouldn’t observe this narrowly only focusing on Rafa’s 2008 RG conquest (his natural environment!) where he allowed the likes of Verdasco and Almagro, the typical clay court players, only 3 games per match…and where he humiliated Fed in the final without even breaking a sweat allowing him 4 games…You should go further than that…Rafa of 2008 won Wimbledon beating 100% Fed, at his favorite surface where he had already been established as the legend! That is the feature of 2008 Rafa! And he certainly wouldn’t have been able to do it without strong serve, good court positioning, great BH and FH…Rafa was so much younger back then and less experienced and therefore you cannot claim he was mentally stronger than in 2013…but his tennis was magnificent!

    Rafa of today may certainly be a more complete player as he has developed certain aspects of his game…Rafa has constantly improved his tennis…but Rafa of 2015 not only has to fight the opponents but he has to deal with injuries and the fear of injuries on the body that has had a lot of it throughout his career…those are his main enemies…it exhausts him physically and mentally…both Novak and Fed are so lucky not to be injury prone…this is mainly why Rafa will have to alter his game to some extent, and that is what he is trying and will do!

    Reply

    • Well I have to just agree to disagree that it wasn’t sudden.

      He played at or near his peak from beginning of 2013 until the AO final of 2014 with the back injury. He was not close to the same player since. Yes because of injury but that doesn’t explain it all as he has had plenty of time to recover physically but other than on Sunday against Fed, he’s just been marginally better than he was in his first tournament back after the AO 14 final.

      Look at Ferrer, He played his career best tennis after 30 and that guy just grinds.

      Rafa’s problem, as only he can know and has said repeatedly, is a mental problem and directly related to confidence and anxiety.

      I believe him 100%.

      Reply

    • I agree about the 2008 Rafa. It’s not just the speed and power, but the energy, the relentlessness, the confidence and mental fortitude, the unwavering mental focus(his level hardly dipped during matches) and his clutch handling of BPs/SPs/MPs. His FH may have improved now, his net game and volleying may have improved now but I feel his BH has gone backwards, his serve (with the exception at USO2010/2013) and returns too have deteriorated. The most frustrating thing is he’s not coming forward more often when he has the skills and abilities to do so, but prefers to grind from behind the baseline more often than not.

      Reply

  62. I don’t know if nats and I are in agreement or not when it comes to Rafa aging. I believe that Rafa is going through this stage of gradual diminishing of skills. Just because he had a mental crisis of confidence this year, does not mean that he isn’t being affected by getting older. He will be thirty in just over half a year. Little by little, things happen. This is separate from the confidence issue this year. But it is happening and will continue because it’s inevitable. Rafa is human. He is not immune to aging in this sport. I am sure he will find ways to compensate for some of this and still be able to be competitive.

    So many talked about Fed being in decline. Are we really trying to say that it won’t happen to Rafa? That is simply not the case.

    Reply

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